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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends II

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You failed to put in "large"; do you agree? You presented a false conclusion. You just attacked and made a false statement, there is no getting around this. Still on this post you don't even acknowledge that you failed to put "large" in front of package and until you do, you will be a liar. If it is an honest mistake, you would say so... but you haven't and you have had plenty of opportunity.

No, you're still just lying. You changed it to M/C from package deliberately and dishonestly. I posted the evidence of your own post and mine. Admit you are lying about that and about me. You should stop lying and stop scurrying away from answering questions.
 
Before we get too far into this, point out exactly where Wes said he saw a large package? Frazier has testified to seeing a package no greater than 27", this is a fact, it is under sworn testimony and if you can provide me with testimony that says otherwise, I will apologize for my actions.



Hank, if you can complete this, I will then follow with the apology.



thanks


Frazier never testified the bag was no more than 27 inches. If you had read the actual testimony you would know that. The 27 inches is someone's interpretation of what he said. He also said he didn't pay much attention to it.
 
I gave the rationale behind my interpretation. Where's yours?
I don't accept your rationale and my acceptance is not necessary to move this forward just as your acceptance of my rationale is not needed.



Your approval is not something I require.
I never asked for it and certainly would not expect it.

The comment is salient because, as I said, the only premise shared by all the conspiracy theories is that the Warren Commission got it wrong. Exactly how they got it wrong and what they should have concluded instead is a matter of widespread disagreement among its detractors, many of whom don't seem to know much about the investigation they're critiquing.
There appears to be a common ground.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Proof that one really knows how someone else erred is found in that person's exceptional demonstration of the better way. After five decades, the combined forces of all these people who think they know so much better how the case should have been investigated have failed to identify the real perpetrator. And it has gotten to the point where they say they aren't even trying. To me that disqualifies it as a serious pursuit of truth.
What a disingenuous comment. Documents are still being pursued under the FOIA which are being challenged on a weekly basis by all of the organizations (FBI, CIA, Department of Treasury, et al). The researchers do not have the capacity or authority to subpena testimony, most do not work for law enforcement agencies or if they did, they could not pursue under that flag, the researchers work independently and out in the open whereas the government departments are not accountable to the public. There are a whole host of reasons why a conclusion has not been reached and to pretend that advancement has not been made in the past 5 decades is not true.

You mentioned Clay Shaw in one of the earlier posts today or late yesterday. Are you claiming that Clay Shaw had no dealings with the CIA or was never paid by the CIA?



Have you actually read what the Warren Commission was charged to do? As I've said repeatedly, you keep trying to shoehorn the existing investigation into a hypothetical court case, apply those rules to it, and declare yourself the victorious attorney who has vindicated Oswald.
Yes and the entire premise was modified as the Commission went forward but you already know that. Yes, I shoehorn the evidence into a hypothetical court case because the Warren Commission is worthless and if we are to discuss testimony, evidence, etc then there has to be level of decorum or it would be anarchy. Frankly, most of the posters who do disagree with me take your approach and do not feel they are required to provide: proof, don't intentionally distort comments, provide accurate and meaningful definitions to words, work within a recognized framework.

On a related note, how does one go about determining that a body has been "contrived" to produce a certain thing, when they produce that thing, without it simply being a second-guess argument?
When the Assistant Attorney General of the USA goes in front of the Commission and states that LHO is the lone gunman within a few days of the creation of the Committee and the Committee comes back with the exact same conclusion and when a member (Allen Dulles) provides a book with all of the assassination attempts on US Presidents and says that LHO fits this mold prior to the first witnesses testimony... that is way to see if it is contrived or not.[/quote]

All your attempts to undermine the Warren Commission, toward whatever purprose, amount to, "I would have done it differently." And we know you're not qualified to do it, so I wonder how you think your approach is even remotely persuasive.
Good to see the good ol' Jay back, you really had me going there for a moment. Whew, I feel so much better when you slam me, I guess there is some masochism in me that just needs to be satisfied. By the way Jay, you do not have a clue about my qualifications and if the facts are not persuasive to you, then you need to deal with it. Put on your man-pants and stick to adult-like conversations instead of attacking me. Is your next lecture going to be how abba knows the true definitions of "theory" and "hypothesis"?
 
There is very little physical evidence and there is even less physical evidence directly linked to LHO.

Do you dispute that CE139 is physical evidence and it was directly linked to Oswald?

And what about CE133A and CE133B?

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0267b.htm

Let's start there.


Be sure to read Fritz's notes that he took when he interrogated LHO, they are revealing and they are consistent with what has been found and what has not been found to be directly traced to LHO as physical evidence.

I must be missing your point, because you mention nothing specific. Exactly what point are you trying to make here?

Hank
 
Frazier never testified the bag was no more than 27 inches. If you had read the actual testimony you would know that. The 27 inches is someone's interpretation of what he said. He also said he didn't pay much attention to it.
Give it up on your rhetoric; go back and read the entire thread. I covered his testimony and I will paraphrase it. Wes initially said 22" to 24"; then he got pressed by the attorney Ball or Belin and the 27" was introduced as it did not exceed this amount. Wes had the measurement determined as to how the package laid in his back seat.

So do not go forward and make state lie as "if you had read the actual testimony". I read it and stated it in previous posts, so if you care to jump in go back get it right.
 
ladmo:

"You mentioned Clay Shaw in one of the earlier posts today or late yesterday. Are you claiming that Clay Shaw had no dealings with the CIA or was never paid by the CIA?"

If the insinuation is that merely "having dealings" with the CIA qualifies an individual as being a co-conspirator in the assassination of JFK, you better bring something better than Garrison's half-assed side show.
 
You mentioned Clay Shaw in one of the earlier posts today or late yesterday. Are you claiming that Clay Shaw had no dealings with the CIA or was never paid by the CIA?

What's he got to do with an assassination attempt on JFK?

Nothing, right?

Was his rifle found in the building?
Were his prints found on a bag in the building?
Were shells traceable to his weapon found in the building?
Were fragments traceable to his weapon found in the limo?
Was a nearly whole bullet traceable to his weapon found at the hospital the two victims were taken to?

I fail to see any evidence connecting Shaw to the JFK assassination.

I am unclear why you bring him up or try to connect him with the CIA, as there is no evidence connecting him to the assassination.

You do dismiss any and all evidence pointing to Oswald on some specious grounds. But any evidence against Shaw, no matter how flimsy, will now be paraded before us as evidence of his connection to this supposed plot, right?

I remind you that you like to point out there was no court case and no jury verdict for Oswald.
There was a court case and a jury verdict for Shaw. He was found Not Guilty.
Try to remember that when you argue about what's admissible in court.

Hank
 
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Do you dispute that CE139 is physical evidence and it was directly linked to Oswald?

And what about CE133A and CE133B?

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0267b.htm

Let's start there.
Hank, this is a can of worms and we are already tackling the bag issue. I would be glad to go down this path but we have not even concluded the bag thing that we started.




I must be missing your point, because you mention nothing specific. Exactly what point are you trying to make here?
Fritz' notes bring out many things and coincidentally it is notated that LHO claims he does not own a rifle. I am not saying LHO is correct, I am pointing out he said it. The notes shed daylight on a few other situations that LHO could not have known but it provided an alibi for his whereabouts at the time of the shooting. If you can't find the notes, send me a message I can send them to you.
 
What's he got to do with an assassination attempt on JFK?

Nothing, right?

Was his rifle found in the building?
Were his prints found on a bag in the building?
Were shells traceable to his weapon found in the building?
Were fragments traceable to his weapon found in the limo?
Was a nearly whole bullet traceable to his weapon found at the hospital the two victims were taken to?

I fail to see any evidence connecting Shaw to the JFK assassination.

I am unclear why you bring him up or try to connect him with the CIA, as there is no evidence connecting him to the assassination.

Hank

The funny thing is that there were probably few individual U.S. businessmen in that era with overseas contacts that weren't pumped for information by U.S. intel services, either FBI or CIA, with or without their knowledge.

The project is still in operation today.
 
What's he got to do with an assassination attempt on JFK?

Nothing, right?

Was his rifle found in the building?
Were his prints found on a bag in the building?
Were shells traceable to his weapon found in the building?
Were fragments traceable to his weapon found in the limo?
Was a nearly whole bullet traceable to his weapon found at the hospital the two victims were taken to?

I fail to see any evidence connecting Shaw to the JFK assassination.

I am unclear why you bring him up or try to connect him with the CIA, as there is no evidence connecting him to the assassination.

Hank
I don't want to sound rude; this issue with Clay Shaw had to do with something back in another month with Jay...
 
ladmo:

"You mentioned Clay Shaw in one of the earlier posts today or late yesterday. Are you claiming that Clay Shaw had no dealings with the CIA or was never paid by the CIA?"

If the insinuation is that merely "having dealings" with the CIA qualifies an individual as being a co-conspirator in the assassination of JFK, you better bring something better than Garrison's half-assed side show.
I don't mean to make that insinuation. When Garrison took Clay Shaw to trial, the CIA denied that Clay Shaw had worked for them. Decades later Richard Helms came out and said that Clay Shaw was a contractor for the CIA as he provided information on an irregular basis. In your post to Hank, I agree that many businessmen provided input, it is still happening today but when there is a flat denial and that denial was one of the many hinges that unhinged Garrison's case, it establishes the element that the CIA will lie when it is to their benefit. Allen Dulles says this explicitly in one of the Executive Sessions. There are many speculations as to Clay Shaw's role with the CIA but the only thing I know is that he provided scattered travel observations.
 
Before we get too far into this, point out exactly where Wes said he saw a large package? Frazier has testified to seeing a package no greater than 27", this is a fact, it is under sworn testimony and if you can provide me with testimony that says otherwise, I will apologize for my actions.

Hank, if you can complete this, I will then follow with the apology.

thanks

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9687536&postcount=4953

Please read the entire post.

Hank
 
LOL. When you are over your hypocrisy, you can stop scurrying away from answering these questions:
the difference is that you are immaterial.

What happened to the non-large bag Oswald carried into the TSBD?
This is the last time I am answering this question...I don't know.

Who was seen carrying in Oswald's assassination rifle?
see above answer... again

Who was seen carrying in the bag used to hold Oswald's assassination rifle?
see above answer... again

What happened to those pesky curtain rods?
see above answer... again

Is there something faulty with your memory? I have answered these questions before... This is why you are immaterial.
 
the difference is that you are immaterial.

This is the last time I am answering this question...I don't know.

see above answer... again

see above answer... again

see above answer... again

Is there something faulty with your memory? I have answered these questions before... This is why you are immaterial.

Then you're finished asking about the package that Oswald brought into the TSBD?
 
Hank, this is a can of worms and we are already tackling the bag issue. I would be glad to go down this path but we have not even concluded the bag thing that we started.

You claimed there was little physical evidence against Oswald. I just pointed out three items of over a hundred I could easily come up with.



Fritz' notes bring out many things and coincidentally it is notated that LHO claims he does not own a rifle. I am not saying LHO is correct, I am pointing out he said it. The notes shed daylight on a few other situations that LHO could not have known but it provided an alibi for his whereabouts at the time of the shooting. If you can't find the notes, send me a message I can send them to you.

You mean these handwritten notes?

http://www.jfk-info.com/notes1.htm
http://www.jfk-info.com/notes2.htm
http://www.jfk-info.com/notes3.htm
http://www.jfk-info.com/notes4.htm
http://www.jfk-info.com/notes5.htm

Or do you mean Fritz' typewritten notes?
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0312a.htm

I'm familiar with both.

All you pointed out was one of Oswald's many lies in custody -- that he didn't own a rifle. If you want to stick to the paper bag, then explain his lie about the bag... he said he brought nothing besides his lunch that day, put nothing on the back seat, and he kept his lunch beside him in the car. So why did Oswald lie about the curtain rods instead of leading the police to the very items that would help prove his innocence?

Hmmm?

Hank
 
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I don't mean to make that insinuation. When Garrison took Clay Shaw to trial, the CIA denied that Clay Shaw had worked for them.

Working for an organization commonly means that you have a specific set of duities ffor which you draw a renumeration.

Decades later Richard Helms came out and said that Clay Shaw was a contractor for the CIA as he provided information on an irregular basis.

Someone who provides information on an irregular basis is called an informant, not an employee. Which means that the original statement is accurate.
 
Working for an organization commonly means that you have a specific set of duities ffor which you draw a renumeration.



Someone who provides information on an irregular basis is called an informant, not an employee. Which means that the original statement is accurate.
semantics and sentence structure. I have contractors that work for me; that is the position that I come from. I do not pay for their benefits, they have a job to do, I cannot ask them to report to me but they work for me.
 
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