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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends II

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Debunking help - JFK Part Eighty-Six

I've looked but can't find anything with a physics/ballistics debunking of Meninger's Fatal Error. All I can find is reports that the active suit (one was time barred) was settled in favor of the accused SS guy (Dickey, I believe his name was). A friend is trying to fend off a new wave of interest in this theory and I thought it would be easy to find, but maybe it was all pre-blogamania?

Does anyone have a reference to something that takes down the ballistics. I remember reading something in print years ago about it, but I can't remember how good or bad it was on the science. (And remember that I'm a lay person and don't do math real swell.)
 
...Let's cut to the chase: If you're just going to claim that all the evidence against Oswald was planted or forged (which is apparently where your arguments lead), just save us all the trouble and admit that now.

You won't be able to provide any evidence of that, of course. Nor will you be able to explain the vast amount of evidence against Oswald except to claim, without any evidence except some contradictions by eyewitnesses, that all that evidence was planted or forged.

Right?

Hank
That's the nub of it right there, and it's the reason why this thread (and the whole debate) really may never end (part III in a year or so, I'd guess, arguing the same issues in the same circles). As long as the CTers insist on arguing from a premise that they make un-falsifiable, they will be like creationists in resorting to magical thinking when rational thought fails them.

Magical thinking is simply attributing to your deity (or conspiracy) whatever properties or actions it needs to be a deity (or a conspiracy). If the bag had been photographed in place- "it was planted!" The bag wasn't photographed in place, so- "it was planted!" Magical thinking is, by definition, thinking without limits in circles; if you're going to end by needing it at some point anyway, it would at least be more honest to just begin with it, and save folks from trying to debate with reason someone who's arguing from a position of faith.
 
I'm sorry but I do feel strongly about this.
My Aunt Effigy feels strongly that CTists use fallacious reasoning.

One of these:
I understand fingerprints all right

and there is something suspicious if somebody else's fingerprints were found in the sniper's nest.
is not like the other.


This business of the paper bag which ladmo keeps going on about is discussed at this website:
We aleady knew that you and ladmo crib everything you believe from conspiracy websites.
 
What's the policy on taking private messages public?

ladmo just sent me a long post with a number of points that I've responded to, but I think those need to be debated publicly to show how the conspiracy arguments have no basis in fact.

So what's the (formal or informal) policy here?

Hank
 
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The .223 bullet is a nasty bullet, that breaks up and tumbles inside the wound, as intended.. it's a workaround to the Geneva Convention prohibition of expanding bullets. The "lead snowstorm" would be an expected result.
Such a bullet could have done what happened to JFK's head.
But...
No one in the Secret Service car responded to a shot from their car by one of their own.
As bodyguards that kill their principals are frowned upon in the trade, the swarming of the shooter by his compatriots would have been noticed at the time.
And the bullet when it exited JFK's head hit the windshield chrome sideways, leaving an indentation that a 6.5mm bullet fits.
 
The .223 bullet is a nasty bullet, that breaks up and tumbles inside the wound, as intended.. it's a workaround to the Geneva Convention prohibition of expanding bullets. The "lead snowstorm" would be an expected result.
Such a bullet could have done what happened to JFK's head.
But...
No one in the Secret Service car responded to a shot from their car by one of their own.
As bodyguards that kill their principals are frowned upon in the trade, the swarming of the shooter by his compatriots would have been noticed at the time.
And the bullet when it exited JFK's head hit the windshield chrome sideways, leaving an indentation that a 6.5mm bullet fits.


While I don't know a lot about rifles & handguns, I am sure that the Secret Service agents were not carrying rifles (it would have been quite obvious if they had been) and I am unsure if there was a .223 handgun on the market at the time that wasn't just a cut down rifle.

AIUI, a .223, has around 60,000 psi pressure. That is two to three times the pressure of a typical hangun round (20,000 to 30,000psi). That would make for one helluva kick!

I've fired a .223 rifle, and it makes a very sharp and distinctive "crack"*. It sounds a lot different to the .308 rifles I have fired, and I think it would have sounded a lot different from the shots fired by Oswald.


* Gun experts. Is this sharper cracking sound due to the high pressure?


 
While I don't know a lot about rifles & handguns, I am sure that the Secret Service agents were not carrying rifles (it would have been quite obvious if they had been) and I am unsure if there was a .223 handgun on the market at the time that wasn't just a cut down rifle. [/I]

The Secret Service agents did have access to a rifle that day. An AR-15 was carried in the follow car. When the incident occurred Agent Hickey secured and raised the rifle toward the vehicles right. There is no evidence that it was fired.

The sharp crack is due to the bullet velocity, not the chamber pressure. The more abrupt "pang" at discharge (as opposed to the "pow" of a .308) is due to the higher pressure, but smaller charge size.
 
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The Bronson film shows Hickey seated at the time of the headshot so unless he had a properly magic bullet that would pass thru the windshield of the car he was riding in leaving it unharmed...
 
The Secret Service agents did have access to a rifle that day. An AR-15 was carried in the follow car. When the incident occurred Agent Hickey secured and raised the rifle toward the vehicles right. There is no evidence that it was fired.

The sharp crack is due to the bullet velocity, not the chamber pressure. The more abrupt "pang" at discharge (as opposed to the "pow" of a .308) is due to the higher pressure, but smaller charge size.
.
The muzzle blast from an AR-15 is obnoxious to all around it!
Can't be ignored, even if the shooter exclaims "Sorry, Jack!" :)
 
I've looked but can't find anything with a physics/ballistics debunking of Meninger's Fatal Error. All I can find is reports that the active suit (one was time barred) was settled in favor of the accused SS guy (Dickey, I believe his name was). A friend is trying to fend off a new wave of interest in this theory and I thought it would be easy to find, but maybe it was all pre-blogamania?

Does anyone have a reference to something that takes down the ballistics. I remember reading something in print years ago about it, but I can't remember how good or bad it was on the science. (And remember that I'm a lay person and don't do math real swell.)

I am not familiar with that work, but I am familiar with wound ballistics. Can you summarize the points you want debunked?
 
Thanks, everyone.... I found a recent article based on what I shudda done, followed McAdam's links... Seems that some TrueTV type channel ran a movie on the anniversary, based on this book or more specifically Donahue's claims.



I am not familiar with that work, but I am familiar with wound ballistics. Can you summarize the points you want debunked?

The claims were by a ballistics guy, Donahue. He accepts the magic bullet for shot 2, but says the first one hit the pavement, the second one went in through the neck and back out and through Connally, but the third shot was by a SS agent with an AR-15.

His major theory is that the bullet from Oswald's rifle couldn't have done the damage and that the full metal jacket from the AR-15 could have and would have essentially disintegrated in the skull, if I read it correctly and that explains all those fragments in Kennedy's skull.... IF THERE WAS NO THIRD SHOT BY OSWALD. He also played up the "impossible angle", but I think Nova took care of that - just that conspiradroids ignore it - and the famous " 6 mm entry wound too small for the 6.5mm bullet from the mail-order rifle, but just right for the 5.6 mm bullet of the AR-15.

After looking through a few more articles last night the "ballistics" evidence isn't all that hot, after all. It sounds like my friend's encountered someone who's just found this "theory" but it's a hodgepodge of bad old interpretations with the added wrinkle that they get to blame the Secret Service.
 
The Bronson film shows Hickey seated at the time of the headshot so unless he had a properly magic bullet that would pass thru the windshield of the car he was riding in leaving it unharmed...

Follow-up car.

Not certain, but wasn't the photo with Hickey half-way up in the seat shown to have been at the time of or after the head shot? I think that pic is a section of a larger pic where you can actually see the Kennedy car.
 
Oh, by the way.... I'm sure we've done this one to death somewhere. The film that brought this all up was The Smoking Gun. It was "Reelz TV" that ran it recently.

Didn't we have a thread on The Smoking Gun, somewhere?
 
It's funny, while this idea is at least superficially plausible - almost no JFK CT ever presents it. Not wild enough?
 
It's funny, while this idea is at least superficially plausible - almost no JFK CT ever presents it. Not wild enough?

As someone noted, it's the idea that you either need a rogue SS agent getting to his rifle and drawing a bead on the POTUS while the SS agents on the running boards and in the car with him just sort of sat there a bit number and did nothing... guys who were trained to throw themselves in front of threats? Or, that the entire SS was in on it and that somehow the driver of their car and all the people nearby on the streets wouldn't have noticed a rather noticeable sight nor have heard a rather loud gun and looked to see the guy who fired it within twenty feet of them.

Grassy Knoll at least has shadows going for it. This one requires that the entire population on the Plaza was in on it, ranking it as one of the largest in the IVC (Impossibly Vast Concpiracy) category, matched only by the tens of thousands of silent people who were in on 911.
 
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The claims were by a ballistics guy, Donahue. He accepts the magic bullet for shot 2, but says the first one hit the pavement, the second one went in through the neck and back out and through Connally, but the third shot was by a SS agent with an AR-15.

His major theory is that the bullet from Oswald's rifle couldn't have done the damage and that the full metal jacket from the AR-15 could have and would have essentially disintegrated in the skull, if I read it correctly and that explains all those fragments in Kennedy's skull.... IF THERE WAS NO THIRD SHOT BY OSWALD.


Cripes. I think I first dealt with this back in '94.

The problem with that theory is, in the 60's, bullet fragmentation wasn't really seen as a wounding mechanism. It was actually pretty well ignored. It's been some time since I dug through the medical literature, but in the 60's the big explanation for the 5.56NATO bullet's wounding ability was solely due to its velocity. You saw (and still see) that talked up a lot, and contributions such as the bullet's yaw or fragmentation are flat out ignored. It was all about velocity and energy dump, with lots of emphasis on the temporary cavity. It stayed that way up through the 80's until Col. Martin Fackler did a bunch of testing and documented how fragmentation enhances wounds. I would therefore not expect fragmentation to enter into anyone's cunning plan in 1963, or even accidental shooting cover-up. It simply wasn't considered, and I would not expect anyone to be familiar with the 5.56NATO, or even any other bullet's, fragmentation tendencies. Heck, IIRC research into this bullet didn't really even start until after the Vietnam was well underway in the late 60's. Sweden was doing research into how inhumane the bullet was, but again, they focused on velocity, and not fragmentation.

I hate typing out the long explanation, so in short, any bullet with the center of gravity towards the rear of the bullet wants to rotate 180 degrees and travel base-first. The spin imparted by the rifling counteracts this, and keeps the bullet nose-first in flight. However, tissue is too dense for this to work anymore, and so the bullet will want to yaw, given enough of a path to do so. Even the lowly .22LR will do this, and so will the 6.5mm FMJ Carcano. How long it takes to do so varies. The 6.5mm fired by the Carcano does so after about 2 feet.[1] The 5.56NATO takes around 7-10 inches.

The 5.56NATO, if traveling fast enough (usually over 2500fps), when it yaws, breaks apart. The faster it goes, he more it fragments. Around 2500fps, it may just break into two. Most all other bullets remain intact through this yaw cycle. However, when striking a hard surface, any bullet may deform and fragment, and people don't realize how little it can take to make this happen.

Window glass is seen as a fairly fragile material. Heck, my brother put a tennis ball through my bedroom window growing up. However, glass is also hard, and in the video Deadly Weapons by Anite Productions you can see even steel core 7.62x39 FMJ bullets fired by the AK-47 series rifle break apart into fragments when striking it.

Bone is also a hard material, and it will cause bullets to deform and maybe break apart. I am therefore not surprised that the 6.5mm FMJ Carcano bullet did so upon striking JFK's skull.


[1]As an aside, I'm not at all surprised by the path the second bullet took as it traveled through Connolly. When the bullet passed through Kennedy's neck, it was destabilized and began to yaw slightly. When it hit Connolly the bullet's yaw cycle continued, but when this bullet yaws, tests have shown it changes direction up to 90 degrees. Nor is it the only bullet that does this. You can't always connect an entrance would with the exit wound and claim that's the path the bullet took.
 
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