JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends II

[Mark F]

Here's an image of the Mauser vs Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano (the MC has a scope, and the bolt is open)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sQ7OwjM2bGY/TjXqgthQBGI/AAAAAAAAAOo/Rbijy-1FTxM/s400/2Rifles.jpg

Anyone can see how closely they resemble each other.

Hank

Actually that is not correct.

The rifle at the top of the photo is a Mannlicher Carcano Model 1938 in 7.35x51 caliber. I should know, I just bought one of these yesterday.

The rifle at the bottom is the older version like Oswald used in 6.5mm caliber.

I believe the photo you are looking for is this one, where a 3rd rifle is shown, this one being a Mauser.

http://dealeyplaza.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/rifle12.jpg

 

[abaddon]

Actually that is not correct.

The rifle at the top of the photo is a Mannlicher Carcano Model 1938 in 7.35x51 caliber. I should know, I just bought one of these yesterday.

The rifle at the bottom is the older version like Oswald used in 6.5mm caliber.

I believe the photo you are looking for is this one, where a 3rd rifle is shown, this one being a Mauser.

http://dealeyplaza.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/rifle12.jpg

Nitpick aside, is that not further evidence as to the difficulty of identifying weapons by sight alone?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

You asked me why I think the FBI investigation was a poor investigation and poor police work so I'll tell you from the Michael Griffiths website. I suppose somebody will now go complaining to the moderator about it.

I'm fascinated by your willingness to devour great swaths of conspiracy junk, yet still not comprehend the short and simple JREF Membership Agreement.

 

[I Ratant]

Here's an image of the Mauser vs Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano (the MC has a scope, and the bolt is open)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sQ7OwjM2bGY/TjXqgthQBGI/AAAAAAAAAOo/Rbijy-1FTxM/s400/2Rifles.jpg

Anyone can see how closely they resemble each other.

Hank

The ONLY visible nomenclature on the 1939 M-C.
At no place is Mannlicher or Carcano on the rifle at all!
The caliber... 6.5mm, and the date of manufacture.

 

[Mark F]

The ONLY visible nomenclature on the 1939 M-C.
At no place is Mannlicher or Carcano on the rifle at all!
The caliber... 6.5mm, and the date of manufacture.

To be deadly accurate (scuse the pun) the rifle is named for Salvatore Carcano who was responsible for the design at the Royal Arms factory in Terni. Officially it is the Fucile di Fanteria Modello 91/38 (Infantry Rifle Model 91/38). The Mannlicher name got unofficially attached because the rifle used a very similar style ammunition clip to that Austrian designed rifle.

 

[I Ratant]

The 7.35mm version replaced the 6.5mm after the Ethiopian invasion. The 6.5 FMJ bullet would pass all the way through the lightly clothed Ethiopians, so the bullet was changed to a composite gilding metal case and lead/aluminum core, to break up and tumble in the wound upon entrance. The cartridge was the same size, but necked up. Only the barrel needed to be changed.
The fixed sights, BTW, were designed to the relatively flat trajectory of the 6.5 bullet.
Aiming at the belt buckle of the enemy out to 300 meters would result in a hit between the belt buckle and the chin. The bullet is a nice one for that trajectory. The Italian Army rifle competition team used the M-C long after it was replaced by the NATO stuff.

 

[Robrob]

If nothing else, the Box A fingerprint suggests a second person was in the sniper's nest. The print must have been placed on the box no more than 24 hours before it was lifted by the police.

Horse poop. The print could have been there from the day the box was manufactured to the day of the assassination. Apparently we need to add fingerprints to the lengthy list of things CT don't understand.

 

[Henri McPhee]

I'm sorry but I do feel strongly about this. The muppets on the Warren Commission believed any old FBI manufactured evidence. There was supposed to be a Senator Russell on the Warren Commission who had his doubts about the lone gunman theory but he didn't seem highly intelligent to me.

I understand fingerprints all right and there is something suspicious if somebody else's fingerprints were found in the sniper's nest.

It says on the following site that Mrs Oswald was threatened with deportation if she did not agree to being coached to lie by the FBI.

This business of the paper bag which ladmo keeps going on about is discussed at this website:


http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/window.htm

It says on that site that the police and FBI never photographed the paper bag and instead just drew it in to a photo for the Warren Commission in order to incriminate Oswald. Even the stupid cops in the Boulder police during the Ramsey case understood the forensic significance of crime scene photos, which is about the only thing they did right in that case.

This is a quote from that website which backs up what ladmo has said about the paper bag:

"This corresponds to the testimony of the first law enforcement officers on the scene. Sheriff Luke Mooney, who discovered the sniper's nest, testified that he saw the 8-12 inch high brown paper "lunchsack" that had been left behind by Bonnie Ray Williams. Mooney was asked if he saw a paper bag at any other window:

Mr. BALL. Did you see a paper bag at any other window?


Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't.

( 3 H 288 )

He was also asked if he saw anything in the corner.

Mr. BALL. .....Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner?


Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner.

( 3 H 286 )

Sgt. Gerald Hill, the first DPD officer to arrive, also only saw the lunchsack:

Mr. HILL. The only specifics we discussed were this. You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun.

( 7 H 65 )

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig:

Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you remember seeing, or not?


Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any.

( 6 H 268 )

Detective Boyd, who arrived with Captain Fritz before Day and Studebaker:

Mr. BALL. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were found?
Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did.

( 7 H 122 )

Incredibly, lacking an actual photograph of the "gunsack" in the sniper's nest, and with numerous officers who saw the 'sniper's nest" testifying that they never saw the "gunsack", the Warren Commission placed in evidence a photo of the sniper's nest with the outline of the "gunsack" drawn in!!! (Studebaker Exhibit F)"

 

[JayUtah]

I'm sorry but I do feel strongly about this.

Yeah, that's the problem. Try feeling less strongly and thinking harder instead.

The muppets on the Warren Commission believed any old FBI manufactured evidence.

"Manufactured" assumes facts not in evidence.

I understand fingerprints all right...

Nope.

It says on the following site...

...something you just read and reported without verification.

It says on that site that the police and FBI never photographed the paper bag...

Asked and answered. Moreover, it has been discussed at length in this very thread, while you have been participating in it. Hence it's fair to say that your arguments are being offered in abject ignorance of anything that's actually being debated.

 

[Mark F]

I'm sorry but I do feel strongly about this.

Yes we know, which is part of the problem. Your "feelings" have put you in the "I will believe anything I read on the interwebs that agrees with what I feel without verification." category.

This is far from a prima facie case you are presenting here.

 

[BStrong]

I'm sorry but I do feel strongly about this. The muppets on the Warren Commission believed any old FBI manufactured evidence. There was supposed to be a Senator Russell on the Warren Commission who had his doubts about the lone gunman theory but he didn't seem highly intelligent to me.

I understand fingerprints all right and there is something suspicious if somebody else's fingerprints were found in the sniper's nest.

It says on the following site that Mrs Oswald was threatened with deportation if she did not agree to being coached to lie by the FBI.

This business of the paper bag which ladmo keeps going on about is discussed at this website:


http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/window.htm

It says on that site that the police and FBI never photographed the paper bag and instead just drew it in to a photo for the Warren Commission in order to incriminate Oswald. Even the stupid cops in the Boulder police during the Ramsey case understood the forensic significance of crime scene photos, which is about the only thing they did right in that case.

This is a quote from that website which backs up what ladmo has said about the paper bag:

"This corresponds to the testimony of the first law enforcement officers on the scene. Sheriff Luke Mooney, who discovered the sniper's nest, testified that he saw the 8-12 inch high brown paper "lunchsack" that had been left behind by Bonnie Ray Williams. Mooney was asked if he saw a paper bag at any other window:

Mr. BALL. Did you see a paper bag at any other window?


Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't.

( 3 H 288 )

He was also asked if he saw anything in the corner.

Mr. BALL. .....Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner?


Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner.

( 3 H 286 )

Sgt. Gerald Hill, the first DPD officer to arrive, also only saw the lunchsack:

Mr. HILL. The only specifics we discussed were this. You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun.

( 7 H 65 )

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig:

Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you remember seeing, or not?


Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any.

( 6 H 268 )

Detective Boyd, who arrived with Captain Fritz before Day and Studebaker:

Mr. BALL. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were found?
Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did.

( 7 H 122 )

Incredibly, lacking an actual photograph of the "gunsack" in the sniper's nest, and with numerous officers who saw the 'sniper's nest" testifying that they never saw the "gunsack", the Warren Commission placed in evidence a photo of the sniper's nest with the outline of the "gunsack" drawn in!!! (Studebaker Exhibit F)"

I wouldn't trust Gil Jesus to water my lawn, but ymmv.

 

[Mudcat]

I'm sorry but I do feel strongly about this.

So we have gathered. You should divorce yourself from your feelings and be more objective about the whole thing.

I understand fingerprints all right and there is something suspicious if somebody else's fingerprints were found in the sniper's nest.

Why would it be suspicious in any way? The sniper's nest was not Oswald's personal property and was where he had been working at, along with other people. It would be far stranger if no one else's fingerprints were at the scene of the crime.

It says on the following site that Mrs Oswald was threatened with deportation if she did not agree to being coached to lie by the FBI.

From what I understand, she eventually returned to Russia. Why didn't she come forward with this information at that time?

 

[JerryGarcia]

...
From what I understand, she eventually returned to Russia. Why didn't she come forward with this information at that time?

I don't believe this is correct ; I think she still lives in the Dallas area after re-marrying.

From wiki :

In 1965 Marina married Kenneth Jess Porter, with whom she has two sons. She used to live in Dallas, Texas, and has appeared in numerous documentaries on the Kennedy assassination. In 1989, Marina became a naturalized United States citizen.[7] She now contends that Oswald was innocent of the assassination.[7][8] She has lived in Rockwall, Texas since the mid-1970s.[9]

 

[I Ratant]

Here's a couple thousand pounds of hologram found on the street after the second hologram smashed into WTC2.
Note the holographic streaks going off to the left from the "impact".

 

[Mudcat]

I don't believe this is correct ; I think she still lives in the Dallas area after re-marrying.

From wiki :

Thank you for the correction.

 

[I Ratant]

JFK-911... no difference in CTwinkie land.

 

[Hans]

Henri I feel strongly that you are terribly wrong ...... lol

 

[HSienzant]

Actually that is not correct.

The rifle at the top of the photo is a Mannlicher Carcano Model 1938 in 7.35x51 caliber. I should know, I just bought one of these yesterday.

The rifle at the bottom is the older version like Oswald used in 6.5mm caliber.

I believe the photo you are looking for is this one, where a 3rd rifle is shown, this one being a Mauser.

http://dealeyplaza.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/rifle12.jpg

My apologies.

I borrowed the image from a CONSPIRACY cite

http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2011/07/mauser-is-mauser-is-mannlicher-carcano.html

Note it is identified there as a Mauser and a Mannlicher-Carcano.

Further evidence, as someone else pointed out, how easy it is to make that mistake.
And further evidence, I suppose, that conspiracy sites can't be trusted.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

I'm sorry but I do feel strongly about this. The muppets on the Warren Commission believed any old FBI manufactured evidence. There was supposed to be a Senator Russell on the Warren Commission who had his doubts about the lone gunman theory but he didn't seem highly intelligent to me.

I understand fingerprints all right and there is something suspicious if somebody else's fingerprints were found in the sniper's nest.

It says on the following site that Mrs Oswald was threatened with deportation if she did not agree to being coached to lie by the FBI.

This business of the paper bag which ladmo keeps going on about is discussed at this website:


http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/window.htm

It says on that site that the police and FBI never photographed the paper bag and instead just drew it in to a photo for the Warren Commission in order to incriminate Oswald. Even the stupid cops in the Boulder police during the Ramsey case understood the forensic significance of crime scene photos, which is about the only thing they did right in that case.

This is a quote from that website which backs up what ladmo has said about the paper bag:

"This corresponds to the testimony of the first law enforcement officers on the scene. Sheriff Luke Mooney, who discovered the sniper's nest, testified that he saw the 8-12 inch high brown paper "lunchsack" that had been left behind by Bonnie Ray Williams. Mooney was asked if he saw a paper bag at any other window:

Mr. BALL. Did you see a paper bag at any other window?


Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't.

( 3 H 288 )

He was also asked if he saw anything in the corner.

Mr. BALL. .....Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner?


Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner.

( 3 H 286 )

Sgt. Gerald Hill, the first DPD officer to arrive, also only saw the lunchsack:

Mr. HILL. The only specifics we discussed were this. You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun.

( 7 H 65 )

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig:

Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you remember seeing, or not?


Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any.

( 6 H 268 )

Detective Boyd, who arrived with Captain Fritz before Day and Studebaker:

Mr. BALL. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were found?
Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did.

( 7 H 122 )

Incredibly, lacking an actual photograph of the "gunsack" in the sniper's nest, and with numerous officers who saw the 'sniper's nest" testifying that they never saw the "gunsack", the Warren Commission placed in evidence a photo of the sniper's nest with the outline of the "gunsack" drawn in!!! (Studebaker Exhibit F)"

Yes. Studebaker admitted he picked up the bag before it was photographed. Placing it back in the crime scene was the wrong thing to do. So they didn't do it. But Studebaker, as the person who first picked it up, was the best person to describe where it was found, and he did draw it into a photo of the area. And he did testify that was where he found it. That photo marked by Studebaker is proper evidence. Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.

Now, if the cops were intent on framing Oswald, why couldn't they put the fake bag in a corner and photograph it there to frame him? Hmm? The lack of the photo isn't evidence for a frame-up, it's evidence for the inadvertent mishandling of one item of evidence, and evidence of no frame-up.

This was established to all here, including Ladmo, which is why he isn't even arguing the point anymore.

And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In other words, we have other officers who admit they saw the paper bag in that corner. We have an officer who admits he picked it up inadvertently before it was photographed in place. And we have photographs of the bag being removed from the TSBD on the afternoon of the assassination. Accusing the FBI of manufacturing evidence isn't going to cut it, because they weren't in the TSBD at that time. And of course, Oswald's prints were found on that same bag. So your explanation is what, the DPD manufactured the bag, and the FBI faked the prints, all to frame an innocent patsy? And you draw that conclusion based on the mere fact that a couple of cops didn't notice a paper bag?

Really? You do understand the conclusion you are reaching needs something stronger than "I don't remember seeing any [paper bag]", right?

Especially since other officers (which Gil Jesus and you don't quote) did see the bag, and it was photographed as it was removed from the building.

Any explanation for why Oswald lied in custody then about the bag he was seen with? Any explanation then as to how Oswald's rifle got into the TSBD then, and how shells fired in, and ejected from his rifle (to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world) got in the sniper's nest? Any explanation as to how fragments traceable to his weapon (to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world) were found in the limo after the assassination? Any explanation as to how a nearly whole bullet traceable to his weapon (to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world) was found in Parkland hospital after the assassination?

Let's cut to the chase: If you're just going to claim that all the evidence against Oswald was planted or forged (which is apparently where your arguments lead), just save us all the trouble and admit that now.

You won't be able to provide any evidence of that, of course. Nor will you be able to explain the vast amount of evidence against Oswald except to claim, without any evidence except some contradictions by eyewitnesses, that all that evidence was planted or forged.

Right?

Hank

 

[Regnad Kcin]

But Hank...

Nazis!