Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Chris_Halkides]

luminol/TMB and drug screens

That's my guess.

The parallel might be close. In both cases, the failure of the follow-up test is blamed on concentrations that are too low. Such a claim is open to question in both cases.

 

[Mary_H]

I surrender!

I bet you would have done it even without a dozen reprimands, Planigale. Jeeze, talk about overkill!

if I'd known you were a girl I'd never have corrected you.

Really I just miss Mary and think the above will bring her out.

Aw, thanks, buddy. I miss you, too, but there's only so many times a person can write about blahdle-ee-blah-blah-blah. Maybe I'll come back if you start talking about something like fashion, or Matt Damon.

Mary who?

You just ignored her anyway. ;-) Yep, keep picking on the girls and Mary will fly in here on her broooo...wings of fire!!! To slash thee with the hot tongue...and forget the cold shoulder cuz I'm pretty sure shes married to some lovely man...because the rule says one lovely person must be combined with one ....ahhhh....never mind. That's just something all my ex wives said anyway...lying bitc...beauties.

It's hard to believe anyone would divorce you, Randy.

Yeah, right! I have noticed you going easy on the women.

I hope Mary gives you heck!

Can you believe Randy's my Facebook friend, andreajo?! What a complete ****!

 

[RoseMontague]

Did somebody mention fashion and Matt Damon?

 

[Supernaut]

The climber put his hands on the sill far from the window and bars. As it appears on the video he uses the bars to hoist himself but it is hard to see because they switch between cameras.

.

Yet again - if you've seen the entire section; AFTER hauling himself using the bars, he presses himself up to the ledge WITHOUT using the them (I don't understand why he wasn't briefed before the cameras rolled).

The further a person can lean their head, shoulders - upper-body generally - forward when pressing up to a ledge, as in this case, the more secure/better balanced they are.

Rudy climbing that night needed to open the shutters at some point if Filomena didn't leave them open. So he climbs up and opens them and then throws the rock through the lower right pane. Then he climbs back up and knocks some glass in and reaches his hand in and up to open the latch and then the window. This is all done standing on the top of the lower window. Up until this point he hasn't needed and depth of the sill. Now he can grab inside the window and pull himself up.

Are you imagining that he pulled himself up and crouched on the sill? Anything's possible but see no reason he would do it that way. Reach in open the window, grab the inside of frame and pull himself through. No need to perch like the actor did.

Either way.

While standing on the grate, or he might indeed have done exactly what the guy in the video did, and sat on the ledge to remove glass and unlatch the window. It would have made it easier to see what he was doing.

BTW, the evidence suggests that he removed the glass shards by pulling them out of the frame, not knocking them out - he left them carefully 'soldiered' on the ledge.

 

[Katody Matrass]

BTW, the evidence suggests that he removed the glass shards by pulling them out of the frame, not knocking them out - he left them carefully 'soldiered' on the ledge.

Filomena's testimony reveals that the window was old and rickety.
It didn't close properly and she said she feared that even wind may have open it.

I can imagine a possibility that the impact of stone on the inner "scuri" outright burst the window open. The same single latch was responsible for keeping the window closed and the inner shade fastened. That would be one less thing for Guede to do, allowing him to make the ascend and entrance literally in seconds.
That would of course require us to assume all the glass pieces fell out of the window frame by themselves. but that's the same assumption the prosecution makes. One less thing to argue about



Interesting fact from the testimony: Filomena petitioned the landlord to install grates in her window, like the ones Laura had.

 

[Grinder]

So, speaking of beating a dead horse.... I thought we weren't getting along, Grinder? Must be Christmas.

Must be

From p. 103 in the English translation of the Massei report: "She [Napoleoni] was wearing shoe covers and sterile gloves. 'I then saw this girl who was on the floor with her face lying towards the right of the viewer, with a terrible wound. Was semi-naked, had the t-shirt rolled up above the breast and lots of blood and spatters of blood even on the breast‛ (page 229)." Does this last detail not confirm that the bra was removed while Meredith was still breathing?

Sure sounds like it, but as usual it means nothing as to who killed her, just another misdirection.

 

[Grinder]

Aw, thanks, buddy. I miss you, too, but there's only so many times a person can write about blahdle-ee-blah-blah-blah. Maybe I'll come back if you start talking about something like fashion, or Matt Damon.

I met him once at the Two Bells. Wait a minute that was Matt Dillon and they wouldn't let him in because he didn't have ID.

As for fashion I only know late. As in fashionably late.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

mathematically sure

I am curious about this. Frank reported on what was happening in court during the first trial, that is the subject of the majority of his posts. Has the pro-guilt crowd come up with a proven list of lies now that we have 95% of the transcripts? I know that Halkides was curious about the mathematical certainty quote that both AK and RS were called in to be questioned on the 5th that had only been reported by Frank. That is in the transcripts.

The issue with respect to Giobbi calling them in is that it has long been a PG talking point that Amanda came in voluntarily on 5 November. In the last several years, we have seen evidence emerge that the two were suspects already (Castellini's article). It would be nice to read Giobbi's testimony on to the effect that he said to bring them both in, but I have not done so yet.

 

[Grinder]

Interesting fact from the testimony: Filomena petitioned the landlord to install grates in her window, like the ones Laura had.

Did she do it before the Murder? Must have been, very interesting if I ever knew that before I had forgotten it.

Anyone that has watched the video can see that reaching in the window with feet on the top of the bottom window sill is not a problem.

I believe it was Moto that verified the video on YouTube is the same as the full show for that segment and we can't see if he uses the bars or not when hoisting himself to sit on the sill but it doesn't really matter.

That large rock could easily have busted the window and inner shutters open. The window wasn't excessively exposed and a couple of minutes from start to finish wouldn't make the entrance very dangerous to the perp.

The MO makes me think Rudy. I ould never have thought of that technique for entering. I'd more likely think of using a screw driver or other pry device and just climb and then open the outer shutters and then the window.

I'm not saying a real burglar wouldn't throw the rock, I'm just saying the kids pick his MO is not credible.

 

[Supernaut]

From p. 103 in the English translation of the Massei report: "She [Napoleoni] was wearing shoe covers and sterile gloves. 'I then saw this girl who was on the floor with her face lying towards the right of the viewer, with a terrible wound. Was semi-naked, had the t-shirt rolled up above the breast and lots of blood and spatters of blood even on the breast‛ (page 229)." Does this last detail not confirm that the bra was removed while Meredith was still breathing?

.... Sure sounds like it, but as usual it means nothing as to who killed her, just another misdirection.

Mis-direction?

Why on Earth are you trying to hand-wave this rather important evidence away?

It clearly indicates some serious patho-psychology by the killer.

What kind of person could find it in themselves to do what's implied?

Can you envisage Raffaele or Amanda stripping someone amongst the carnage?

Someone who was evidently still gasping and choking on their own blood?

Do you simply see it as something anyone is capable of "under the right circumstances"?

 

[Supernaut]

Filomena's testimony reveals that the window was old and rickety.
It didn't close properly and she said she feared that even wind may have open it.

I can imagine a possibility that the impact of stone on the inner "scuri" outright burst the window open. The same single latch was responsible for keeping the window closed and the inner shade fastened. That would be one less thing for Guede to do, allowing him to make the ascend and entrance literally in seconds.
That would of course require us to assume all the glass pieces fell out of the window frame by themselves. but that's the same assumption the prosecution makes. One less thing to argue about



Interesting fact from the testimony: Filomena petitioned the landlord to install grates in her window, like the ones Laura had.

Again; a female acquaintance of one or other of them had suggested that she would only have felt safe living in the house with a couple of large dogs present.

 

[Grinder]

Do you simply see it as something anyone is capable of "under the right circumstances"?

Yes anyone capable of stabbing her through the neck and killing her would be capable of the staging alleged. Whether the bra was taken off before or after death is another discussion that doesn't prove one person or another committed the crime.

If it were proven one way or another, the case is no closer to being solved.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The falsehood about the blood droplets

Sure sounds like it, but as usual it means nothing as to who killed her, just another misdirection.

At another discussion board, the commenters are still tossing around the idea that Meredith's body was moved long after her death. The supposed lack of blood on her breasts (the stencil effect) is sometimes invoked as evidence of this. IIUC Micheli got this wrong, and it has been bouncing around in cyberspace ever since: At a site that looks a little like Wikipedia, the author wrote, "Someone returned to move Meredith. As is detailed by Judge Micheli (who convicted Guede for his part and committed Knox and Sollecito to trial to answer for the evidence of theirs) Meredith's body was discovered in a position and location different from that in which she died, judging by the lividity reported by the medical examiner and an indentation in her shoulder of a bra strap (with a corresponding impression on the floor). She had died and rested on her shoulder to the right of the room, wearing her bra, and was moved to center of the room and her bra discarded at her feet, soaked through but nowhere near any blood. He [Judge Micheli] notes that the blood droplets on the cups show she was wearing the bra while still breathing, but her chest, which the bra had been covering, remained clean, indicating no breaths were being drawn when or after the bra was removed."

 

[Supernaut]

Yes anyone capable of stabbing her through the neck and killing her would be capable of the staging alleged. Whether the bra was taken off before or after death is another discussion that doesn't prove one person or another committed the crime.

If it were proven one way or another, the case is no closer to being solved.

Well, I'm no psychologist, but to me, murdering someone in such a particularly brutal and bloody fashion is one thing.

To then maintain sexual arousal (or become aroused) is quite another.

Perhaps I'm just naïve?

 

[Strozzi]

The climber put his hands on the sill far from the window and bars. As it appears on the video he uses the bars to hoist himself but it is hard to see because they switch between cameras.

Rudy climbing that night needed to open the shutters at some point if Filomena didn't leave them open. So he climbs up and opens them and then throws the rock through the lower right pane. Then he climbs back up and knocks some glass in and reaches his hand in and up to open the latch and then the window. This is all done standing on the top of the lower window. Up until this point he hasn't needed and depth of the sill. Now he can grab inside the window and pull himself up.

Are you imagining that he pulled himself up and crouched on the sill? Anything's possible but see no reason he would do it that way.

Reach in open the window, grab the inside of frame and pull himself through. No need to perch like the actor did.

I remember Massei wrote that the break-in was staged because a burglar would not have done the 3 multiple actions required to 1) ascend a few rungs up the lower window grade to tip open the shutters with his hand and descend, 2) then climb to the car park to throw the rock, and then 3) descend from the car park and climb up through the window. Geesh --- Rudy was a semi-pro basketball player used to jumping up and down and doing layups. Was Massei stoned when he wrote his motivation?

 

[Bill Williams]

I remember Massei wrote that the break-in was staged because a burglar would not have done the 3 multiple actions required to 1) ascend a few rungs up the lower window grade to tip open the shutters with his hand and descend, 2) then climb to the car park to throw the rock, and then 3) descend from the car park and climb up through the window. Geesh --- Rudy was a semi-pro basketball player used to jumping up and down and doing layups. Was Massei stoned when he wrote his motivation?

Of all the theories as to why the climb/break-in could not have been done, Massei's is perhaps the silliest. |The Channel 5 recreation puts to rest forever any claim that Rudy would have had to have gone up and down three times to deal with the shutters.

There's also a guilter poster on PMF who is writing now that he/she has read Filomena's trial testimony in the original Italian. The person is claiming that Filomena is simply confusing and contrary in translation to the condition of the shutters to begin with, that nothing, really, can be said about their condition or position.....

Anyway, all of this is "overthinking" what to Rudy would be an instinctual, up and in act.

It's also telling that ANYONE has to spend ANY time on the ease/difficulty of the climb, when the guilter claim is that it is simply self evident that the inside of Filomena's room has been staged. Well, it is not self evident, there is NO evidence of a staging inside of Filomena's room, so it's no wonder endless typing needs to happen over the climb...... just saying....

 

[LondonJohn]

At another discussion board, the commenters are still tossing around the idea that Meredith's body was moved long after her death. The supposed lack of blood on her breasts (the stencil effect) is sometimes invoked as evidence of this. IIUC Micheli got this wrong, and it has been bouncing around in cyberspace ever since: At a site that looks a little like Wikipedia, the author wrote, "Someone returned to move Meredith. As is detailed by Judge Micheli (who convicted Guede for his part and committed Knox and Sollecito to trial to answer for the evidence of theirs) Meredith's body was discovered in a position and location different from that in which she died, judging by the lividity reported by the medical examiner and an indentation in her shoulder of a bra strap (with a corresponding impression on the floor). She had died and rested on her shoulder to the right of the room, wearing her bra, and was moved to center of the room and her bra discarded at her feet, soaked through but nowhere near any blood. He [Judge Micheli] notes that the blood droplets on the cups show she was wearing the bra while still breathing, but her chest, which the bra had been covering, remained clean, indicating no breaths were being drawn when or after the bra was removed."

Yes - Micheli (and the pro-guilt commentators responsible for this pseudo-wiki page) got it totally wrong.

Had Meredith's body been moved some time (hours) after her death, then this of course would constitute a certain amount of evidence against Knox (and possibly Sollecito), since it's obviously easier to conceive of Knox (with or without Sollecito) having the means and the motivation to do such an act, as opposed to Guede.

But in fact the evidence in no way suggests that the body was moved at any time after death. In fact, the evidence tends to suggest the exact opposite. The duvet that was thrown over Meredith's body was saturated in blood where it had contacted her neck and shoulders area. This clearly indicates that it was thrown over her body only shortly after death, when her blood was still liquid and pooled in and around the wounds. And the amount of pooled blood around the body in its discovery position means clearly that Meredith must still have been bleeding copiously while her body was in that position. She wasn't moved there hours after dying: she was moved there while she was still bleeding to death.

Furthermore, there's a clear arc of blood where the body must have been spun round clockwise by the legs/feet to the position where it was discovered. The blood on the wardrobe door and the blood distribution on the floor clearly indicate that Meredith was attacked in front of the wardrobe, and that she initially fell there. Her killer then moved her round (in my opinion, this was Guede repositioning her body to facilitate his sexual assault) while she was still bleeding profusely. There's no other way to explain the blood distribution. All of this movement simply mist have happened within a minute or two maximum of the stabbing.

In addition, there is a fundamental piece of misinformation floating around regarding the removal of the bra. Post mortem photos actually show very clearly that there was aspirated blood misting visible on the skin that would had been covered by the bra as it was worn normally. This means with total certainty that Meredith was still alive at the time her bra was removed - there is simply no way that aspirated blood can come from a dead body in such a mist.

In summary, there's no physical evidence whatsoever that points towards Meredith's body having been moved at any significant time after death. In fact, the evidence strongly tends to suggest that Meredith's body was moved (and her bra was removed) very shortly (within minutes) of the stabbing, and probably ante-mortem.

 

[LondonJohn]

Filomena's testimony reveals that the window was old and rickety.
It didn't close properly and she said she feared that even wind may have open it.

I can imagine a possibility that the impact of stone on the inner "scuri" outright burst the window open. The same single latch was responsible for keeping the window closed and the inner shade fastened. That would be one less thing for Guede to do, allowing him to make the ascend and entrance literally in seconds.
That would of course require us to assume all the glass pieces fell out of the window frame by themselves. but that's the same assumption the prosecution makes. One less thing to argue about



Interesting fact from the testimony: Filomena petitioned the landlord to install grates in her window, like the ones Laura had.

The other interesting and relevant potential consequence is this: if the window frames themselves were not properly secured - and if therefore the impact of a rock thrown from outside resulted in the window frames opening inward - then there's even less reason to suppose that there might be pieces of broken glass on the ground outside underneath the window.

In this scenario, the transferred forward (i.e. inward towards Filomena's room) momentum given to the glass in the window pane would have virtually guaranteed that anything other than minuscule particles of glass would have been projected forward (inward) to some degree. They certainly wouldn't have had enough rearward momentum to clear the window ledge and fall down onto the ground.

 

[acbytesla]

Of all the theories as to why the climb/break-in could not have been done, Massei's is perhaps the silliest. |The Channel 5 recreation puts to rest forever any claim that Rudy would have had to have gone up and down three times to deal with the shutters.

There's also a guilter poster on PMF who is writing now that he/she has read Filomena's trial testimony in the original Italian. The person is claiming that Filomena is simply confusing and contrary in translation to the condition of the shutters to begin with, that nothing, really, can be said about their condition or position.....

Anyway, all of this is "overthinking" what to Rudy would be an instinctual, up and in act.

It's also telling that ANYONE has to spend ANY time on the ease/difficulty of the climb, when the guilter claim is that it is simply self evident that the inside of Filomena's room has been staged. Well, it is not self evident, there is NO evidence of a staging inside of Filomena's room, so it's no wonder endless typing needs to happen over the climb...... just saying....

This is how this story goes. The PGP throw out reason and intellectual honesty to come up with their predetermined bias that Amanda and Raffaele were guilty. Machiavelli and Crini now actually claiming that the knife stain matches the large kitchen knife. Not one scientist* in a thousand would agree with this absurdity.

*(not on the payroll. I've noticed with global warming that many will go against reality if the oil companies will pay them enough)

Briars insistence that no way would they break in through that window because it is too exposed is another. Massei's claim that Rudy would have had to go up and down 3 times is of course more of the same. Not only wouldn't it be necessary, but the idea that 3 up and downs is a deal breaker is absurd.

While I wouldn't agree with the conclusion, I just wish they would be more honest. No Curatolo and Nara are not credible and the climb is not prohibitive. But Amanda said she was there and they can't get past that.

At least that would be intellectually honest.

 

[JREF2010]

Massei's claim that Rudy would have had to go up and down 3 times is of course more of the same. Not only wouldn't it be necessary, but the idea that 3 up and downs is a deal breaker is absurd.

Massei saying it couldnt happen and Micheli stating it wouldnt be difficult proves reasonable doubt to me.

The recent video of the climber strengthens Micheli's statement that it wouldnt be difficult to climb through the window. He used some sland as "it wouldnt take Spiderman to climb through it" as I recall.