Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

I'm sure Mathew is cross posting to help you at this moment but here's the link

While they may not have said the same things under oath I don't think that makes the journalists liars.

I don't speak Italian. I'm not reading what I can't understand. I'm not saying the journalists are liars. I just don't believe everything I read in the tabloids.

 

[Matthew Best]

From this link Google "alcohol processing time" first hit.

As you can see it would take around a .25 at 5 am to still have a full equivalent at 9 pm.

0.20 Loss of motor control; must have assistance standing or walking; mental confusion; needs medical assistance.

0.30 and higher Severe intoxication; potential loss of consciousness; needs hospitalization.

Interestingly from this link:

Dr. Andrew Watters, the head of the hospital’s emergency department, said situations like these are becoming both more frequent and severe.

“The legal limit is .08,” Watters said. “Historically, it was not uncommon to see college kids coming in with .20s, .30s fairly typically. That’s pretty drunk. Now, it’s not even rare to see a .40 or a .50.”

Watters said he thinks the pattern started about five years ago, when hard alcohol like vodka seemed to increase in popularity. Often the vodka is drunk with caffeine, like soda or Red Bull. The stimulant effect of the caffeine offsets the depressant effect of the alcohol for a few hours.

Of course, these are people who actually have been hospitalized. But maybe a 0.25 is not inconceivable after all?

 

[kwill]

I don't think the British women ever said anything about how Amanda felt about Meredith; they only spoke about how they perceived that Meredith felt about Amanda. Meredith herself left nothing to say that she and Amanda "did not get along."

I agree except I don't understand the last sentence. All the stories about their relationship seem to be hearsay unless Meredith wrote somebody.

lol, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Meredith herself left nothing [in writing] to say that she and Amanda "did not get along." My bad diction!

That is PGP standard fodder. Amanda was easily as accomplished as Meredith and mores o in sport and musically. While Meredith had earned a Erasmus scholarship and Amanda hadn't, Amanda had earned admittance to a much higher rated institution. Meredith was dating a guy growing pot and going for a BA (Dr. in Italy) while Amanda was dating a grad student from a wealthy family. Amanda had a job, Meredith didn't.

Meredith was no prude.

I know. The PGP struggles to invent a motive, and this jealousy thing is what they've come up with, and by God they're sticking to it with all their might. That's why Machiavelli worked so hard recently to question the "honor student" classification. In his mind, Amanda Knox was just a party girl, drifting around Europe, picking up some language classes, looking for drugs and men, feeling inferior to people like Meredith Kercher.

It's mind-boggling.

 

[Briars]

Oh please. Translate his testimony. He saw them when he arrived shortly after 9:30. He looked up several times and saw them. He never looked up and didn't see them. The access was limited from 10:30 to 11:15 by the car and tow truck.

So they went straight from Raf's to the plaza and hung out for some reason until 10. When do you think Curatolo looked up? Meredith has been home for an hour by this time and made the odd calls. She was still wearing her outside outfit. She hadn't called back her mom or done any texting or emailing or surfing.

They somehow get to the cottage, meet Rudy, enter the cottage, murder Meredith, clean themselves, and run back to the plaza and stay until just before midnight. How they avoid being seen by anyone including the car people or truck driver is a mystery.

They ran when Rudy did around 10:30 prior to any car breakdown. They had been in the piazza earlier to meet or buy drugs. Curatolo was not a security guard and had no reason to watch continuously. Meredtih was wearing a zip up sweatshirt not heavy outer wear. Maybe 9pm was already getting late to call her ailing mother so no repeat call. We have no idea how much they needed to clean themselves They put their coats on and covered up.Rudy was the one who nelt by the victim and carried around bloody towels.He may have washed up in the bathroom but there would have been a lot of splashing and much more blood evidence. Someone took the time to clean up. A quick trip home to Sollecito's the defendants could have been back waiting in the piazza for the tow truck to leave just before 11pm

 

[Grinder]

Interestingly from this link:

Dr. Andrew Watters, the head of the hospital’s emergency department, said situations like these are becoming both more frequent and severe.

“The legal limit is .08,” Watters said. “Historically, it was not uncommon to see college kids coming in with .20s, .30s fairly typically. That’s pretty drunk. Now, it’s not even rare to see a .40 or a .50.”

Watters said he thinks the pattern started about five years ago, when hard alcohol like vodka seemed to increase in popularity. Often the vodka is drunk with caffeine, like soda or Red Bull. The stimulant effect of the caffeine offsets the depressant effect of the alcohol for a few hours.

Of course, these are people who actually have been hospitalized. But maybe a 0.25 is not inconceivable after all?

Well that is interesting. Everything I've found indicates a person would be dead at .5 or even .4.

I think it is possible that she had a .25 but I'd like to know how she got home that night if so.

BAC .25 percent
All mental, physical and sensory functions are severely impaired. You’re emotionally numb. There’s an increased risk of asphyxiation from choking on vomit and of seriously injuring yourself by falling or other accidents.
BAC .30 percent
You’re probably in a stupor. You have little comprehension of where you are or what’s really going on around you. You may suddenly pass out and be difficult to awaken.
BAC .35 percent
This blood alcohol concentration is similar to the physical effects of surgical anesthesia. You may stop breathing.
BAC .40 percent to .50 percent
You are probably in a coma. The nerve centers controlling your heartbeat and respiration are slowing down, and it’s a miracle if you survive.


Top hit from Google "how much bac will kill you"

What if someone brought her home and stayed or said he would come back later? I just think knowing what she did that day and what condition she was in might be worth knowing.

Clearly if all the british girls were as snockered as a .25 their memories of what happened that night wouldn't be very good.

 

[Planigale]

. You are the one talking rubbish. The fight or flight response delays digestion reserving energy to escape..The sympathetic nervous system is affected here. Vomit yes due to nerves.. A high fat meal including Gorgonzola pizza and buttery crumble easily could have been delayed somewhat outside of the 2 hour norm. Taking us up to a little after nine when the unpleasant arrival of the defendants occurred. Easily halting digestion to a TOD just before 10:20,

BJAnaes 1998;81:522-5 Effect of anxiety on the rate of gastric emptying of liquids. In summary they found none.
Ann Surg. 1995 Dec;222(6):728-34 Preoperative gastric emptying. Effects of anxiety and oral carbohydrate administration. In summary they also found none.

 

[Grinder]

They ran when Rudy did around 10:30 prior to any car breakdown. They had been in the piazza earlier to meet or buy drugs. Curatolo was not a security guard and had no reason to watch continuously. Meredtih was wearing a zip up sweatshirt not heavy outer wear. Maybe 9pm was already getting late to call her ailing mother so no repeat call. We have no idea how much they needed to clean themselves They put their coats on and covered up.Rudy was the one who nelt by the victim and carried around bloody towels.He may have washed up in the bathroom but there would have been a lot of splashing and much more blood evidence. Someone took the time to clean up. A quick trip home to Sollecito's the defendants could have been back waiting in the piazza for the tow truck to leave just before 11pm

But he better than a security guard that's why he saw so much and was able to testify in those other cases. I think it was Comodi that made the argument that homelessness was an asset as he paid attention to his home, so to speak.

He clearly tells the court that they were there from the time he arrives until just before midnight. Every time he looks up they are there.

Rudy knelt by the victim. Rich.

If the kids did as you say they would have had blood all over them. It was a brutal, violent murder. Amanda wileding the knife, Raf holding her down while Rudy violated her. I don't know how Crini's fight over feces fits in.

You need to synchronize each of these elements to the minute and have everything work exactly as you wish for this theory to even start.

Was it Meredith's habit not to text or email in the evening?

They were in the plaza after 9:30 and done with the murder before 10:15?

 

[acbytesla]

But he better than a security guard that's why he saw so much and was able to testify in those other cases. I think it was Comodi that made the argument that homelessness was an asset as he paid attention to his home, so to speak.

He clearly tells the court that they were there from the time he arrives until just before midnight. Every time he looks up they are there.

Rudy knelt by the victim. Rich.

If the kids did as you say they would have had blood all over them. It was a brutal, violent murder. Amanda wileding the knife, Raf holding her down while Rudy violated her. I don't know how Crini's fight over feces fits in.

You need to synchronize each of these elements to the minute and have everything work exactly as you wish for this theory to even start.

Was it Meredith's habit not to text or email in the evening?

They were in the plaza after 9:30 and done with the murder before 10:15?

I really have to wonder about his claim that Amanda and Raffaele ran when Rudy ran. So they ran to the Piazza to hang around it for another hour? And you would think that Curatolo would have noticed them "running" from the cottage to the Piazza. This is so silly. Amanda is supposed to be working, Raffaele is supposed to be helping his neighbor by taking her to the train station. Those plans fall through so they go and hang out at the Piazza to buy drugs then go down to the murder Meredith at the cottage and then run back up?

Briars, can't you see how silly this is?

 

[Supernaut]

I really have to wonder about his claim that Amanda and Raffaele ran when Rudy ran. So they ran to the Piazza to hang around it for another hour? And you would think that Curatolo would have noticed them "running" from the cottage to the Piazza. This is so silly. Amanda is supposed to be working, Raffaele is supposed to be helping his neighbor by taking her to the train station. Those plans fall through so they go and hang out at the Piazza to buy drugs then go down to the murder Meredith at the cottage and then run back up?

Briars, can't you see how silly this is?

Probably. But when I read his/her posts, I find the words "good" and "faith" don't spring to mind.

 

[Grinder]

I really have to wonder about his claim that Amanda and Raffaele ran when Rudy ran. So they ran to the Piazza to hang around it for another hour? And you would think that Curatolo would have noticed them "running" from the cottage to the Piazza. This is so silly. Amanda is supposed to be working, Raffaele is supposed to be helping his neighbor by taking her to the train station. Those plans fall through so they go and hang out at the Piazza to buy drugs then go down to the cottage and then run back up?

Briars, can't you see how silly this is?

Oops we forgot the knife. So Amanda brought the knife to the plaza and the "drug" buy and then down to the cottage a quick snort and stabbing.

The fact that they tested negative for drugs of course is because they were tested too soon or was too late, gosh hard to remember.

Eagle-eyed Curatolo didn't report that they had put on coats or in any way changed outfits. what he did say was that every time he looked up tehy were there. Not even Mignini has them leaving and coming back. he has them killing afterward but had to move Curatolo's time up.

Why oh why don't the PGP discard the obviously not credible Curatolo?

At least then they could put together a better timeline.

 

[acbytesla]

Oops we forgot the knife. So Amanda brought the knife to the plaza and the "drug" buy and then down to the cottage a quick snort and stabbing.

The fact that they tested negative for drugs of course is because they were tested too soon or was too late, gosh hard to remember.

Eagle-eyed Curatolo didn't report that they had put on coats or in any way changed outfits. what he did say was that every time he looked up tehy were there. Not even Mignini has them leaving and coming back. he has them killing afterward but had to move Curatolo's time up.

Why oh why don't the PGP discard the obviously not credible Curatolo?

At least then they could put together a better timeline.

We're they actually tested for drugs Grinder? They admitted smoking cannabis. This isn't a secret. I've seen posts saying they were tested, but no actual citations. I've also read that cannabis can be detected even weeks after be exposed to it, whereas other drugs not so much.

I agree with the timeline. Some have tried but it never logically fits the evidence.

 

[Grinder]

We're they actually tested for drugs Grinder? They admitted smoking cannabis. This isn't a secret. I've seen posts saying they were tested, but no actual citations. I've also read that cannabis can be detected even weeks after be exposed to it, whereas other drugs not so much.

I agree with the timeline. Some have tried but it never logically fits the evidence.

I don't have a cite but it was widely assumed by all that they were tested. Someone might have a direct source. I should have said tested negative for everything except pot. Given the idea that it was a sex/drug fueled event one would certainly think they were tested and if they had anything to report they would.

 

[NancyS]

They ran when Rudy did around 10:30 prior to any car breakdown. They had been in the piazza earlier to meet or buy drugs. Curatolo was not a security guard and had no reason to watch continuously. Meredtih was wearing a zip up sweatshirt not heavy outer wear. Maybe 9pm was already getting late to call her ailing mother so no repeat call. We have no idea how much they needed to clean themselves They put their coats on and covered up.Rudy was the one who nelt by the victim and carried around bloody towels.He may have washed up in the bathroom but there would have been a lot of splashing and much more blood evidence. Someone took the time to clean up. A quick trip home to Sollecito's the defendants could have been back waiting in the piazza for the tow truck to leave just before 11pm

And why is there no blood on their coats?

And I though that Amanda and Raffaele were supposed to be naked murderers, hence also why no blood on their clothes and shoes and bare footprints

And pizza and apple pie is definitely a mostly carbohydrate based meal

 

[NancyS]

I really laugh about the suggestion of this vibrator being a bone of contention with Meredith or any of the girls. Meredith was giving relationship advice to Amanda suggesting that casual sex wasn't for Amanda. What's more, this is 2007 no 1950. 20 year old girls/women are much more sophisticated. There is very little stigma associated with masturbation and sex toys today. Meredith, was enjoying a casual sexual relationship with Giacomo who was keeping her at arms length making sure that it should be known that their relationship was not exclusive and casual.

This was so far beyond ridiculous - Meredith was part of the Sex and the City generation and even my Mum has been to an Ann Summers party and knows what a rabbit is.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't have a cite but it was widely assumed by all that they were tested. Someone might have a direct source. I should have said tested negative for everything except pot. Given the idea that it was a sex/drug fueled event one would certainly think they were tested and if they had anything to report they would.

You would think that they were, but I actually don't think they were tested Grinder. Like you said it was essentially too late to get an accurate test. The problem for the prosecution is that if they tested negative, that gets reported. This way, they get to speculate that they were in a drug haze without actually having to prove it.

 

[Samson]

We're they actually tested for drugs Grinder? They admitted smoking cannabis. This isn't a secret. I've seen posts saying they were tested, but no actual citations. I've also read that cannabis can be detected even weeks after be exposed to it, whereas other drugs not so much.

I agree with the timeline. Some have tried but it never logically fits the evidence.

Clearly the timeline, as dictated by the time of death is morphing into an impossible dilemma for the prosecution et al. Some time ago Peter Quennell said he preferred the earlier time of death, and now Crini is trapped. Nencini must address this as the potentially second convicting judge, as it is precisely the intense pressure of time and the internet hammering away at these points. They could fool enough people for several years into a ridiculous but logically possible crime, but the combination of the duodenum evidence and the broken down car are destroying the prosecution. The ECHR for example will never buy into a crime in split shifts, where the defendants have to depart and return to the scene with seamless skill and cunning.
Furthermore the break in evidence will be proven to only be tenable if Raffaele threw the rock from the car park around midnight with a dead body inside, another ridiculous notion.
Time of death and the "staged break in". Two items visible and provable to the world at large, these will return A+R to the world of the free IMO.

 

[Grinder]

You would think that they were, but I actually don't think they were tested Grinder. Like you said it was essentially too late to get an accurate test. The problem for the prosecution is that if they tested negative, that gets reported. This way, they get to speculate that they were in a drug haze without actually having to prove it.

The hair test is good for weeks. The PGP contended they were test too soon not too late.

Perhaps one of the book readers here can tell us what AK or RS said.

 

[acbytesla]

This was so far beyond ridiculous - Meredith was part of the Sex and the City generation and even my Mum has been to an Ann Summers party and knows what a rabbit is.

I was watching "How I met your mother" a prime time sitcom the other day and there was a scene where Lilly was given a "sex toy" at a wedding shower where there was a lot of women of her parent's generation.

The simple fact that Meredith had a Brazilian wax job kind of demonstrates that Meredith was not sexually repressed.

 

[NancyS]

I was watching "How I met your mother" a prime time sitcom the other day and there was a scene where Lilly was given a "sex toy" at a wedding shower where there was a lot of women of her parent's generation.

The simple fact that Meredith had a Brazilian wax job kind of demonstrates that Meredith was not sexually repressed.

A brazillian is fairly standard for Meredith's peers - I used to work in a GUM clinic and I barely saw a woman under 30 who didn't have a brazilian.

Maybe the prosecution's next theory will be that Meredith was disgusted with Amanda 'working a 70s vibe downstairs' (to quote Gwyneth Paltrow )

 

[acbytesla]

A brazillian is fairly standard for Meredith's peers - I used to work in a GUM clinic and I barely saw a woman under 30 who didn't have a brazilian.

Maybe the prosecution's next theory will be that Meredith was disgusted with Amanda 'working a 70s vibe downstairs' (to quote Gwyneth Paltrow )

70s vibe as in not being bare??