The Race Paradigm

Without wanting to get all A+ on the thread, I don't think you can say that the examples are equivalent, unless you're contending that "the white accent" has historically been used to keep the oppressed minority of white people in America down.
 
I think there's a difference between the two. When he's calling the Vietnamese guy by a racial epithet he's role-playing what someone is thinking, making the point that everybody is prejudiced in some way. He's overplaying it in every situation but, then he's a comedian.

However, when he's putting on an "ah so!" voice to role-play the Vietnamese guy, that's not Dave Chappelle saying "people are like this" and making a point about racism, it's Dave Chapelle actually doing that and actually being racist.

I guess you missed the point where he states he is racist and everyone is racist.
 
So perpetuating racist stereotypes is above criticism as long as you preface doing so by saying that you're racist?
 
Without wanting to get all A+ on the thread, I don't think you can say that the examples are equivalent, unless you're contending that "the white accent" has historically been used to keep the oppressed minority of white people in America down.

I don't see the issue since:

1) he's a comedian on stage, and thus should get fairly wide berth in what he's doing, as log as it's funny. There's a wide gap between Michael Richards shouting "the N-word", and Ralphie Mays' "Cuba Diving" piece. Also

2) his accents are *all* terrible, and he knows it, and it's part of the joke. His "white man" accent is really a news anchor accent, which nobody uses in real life. His northern black guy is just him, which means it has *way* too much drawl to it. His Jamaican accent is also notoriously bad.
 
I don't see the issue since:

The issue is that he's perpetuating lazy racist stereotypes.

1) he's a comedian on stage, and thus should get fairly wide berth in what he's doing, as log as it's funny. There's a wide gap between Michael Richards shouting "the N-word", and Ralphie Mays' "Cuba Diving" piece.

I generally believe that comedians and, indeed, everybody should be entitled to say whatever they want however they want. But that doesn't make them immune from criticism. I don't think that being a comedian gets you a free pass from people looking at what you're saying and how you're saying it.

I'm not calling for censorship I'm pointing out that, while making a point about racism, he's also being racist himself.

I should also point out that what is or is not "funny" is a matter of opinion. Some people think Bernard Manning was hilarious. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't have pointed out that he was also racist.

Either it's fair game to comment on any comedian, or they are all immune from comment. You can't have a rule where it's "you can't comment on what I find funny, but if I don't find it funny you can say what you like".


Also

2) his accents are *all* terrible, and he knows it, and it's part of the joke. His "white man" accent is really a news anchor accent, which nobody uses in real life. His northern black guy is just him, which means it has *way* too much drawl to it. His Jamaican accent is also notoriously bad.

It's not about the accent being terrible, it's about it perpetuating a lazy racist stereotype.
 
The issue is that he's perpetuating lazy racist stereotypes.

That's a potential issue, but I think you're incorrect.

I generally believe that comedians and, indeed, everybody should be entitled to say whatever they want however they want. But that doesn't make them immune from criticism. I don't think that being a comedian gets you a free pass from people looking at what you're saying and how you're saying it.

I'm not calling for censorship I'm pointing out that, while making a point about racism, he's also being racist himself.

That's fair, but a good part of Chapelle's comedy is that he is inviting people to mock racism itself.

I should also point out that what is or is not "funny" is a matter of opinion. Some people think Bernard Manning was hilarious. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't have pointed out that he was also racist.

Either it's fair game to comment on any comedian, or they are all immune from comment. You can't have a rule where it's "you can't comment on what I find funny, but if I don't find it funny you can say what you like".

But here's the point: Chapelle freely claimed that he was a racist, and then, on stage, mocked *Korean* immigrants, using stereotypes of *Chinese* immigrants. The entire joke is that Chapelle is *so* ignorant, that he'll spew racism against *Chinese* people, to attack a *Korean* shop owner, and has no clue that he's attacking the shop owner using the wrong racial insults.
 
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So perpetuating racist stereotypes is above criticism as long as you preface doing so by saying that you're racist?

This is precisely what I'd hope you'd point out, because in a sense YES this is the answer.

But first of all it's a comedian mocking racism, if he was sitting at a dinner and mocking someone outside that context it would be a LOT different, as we saw from Rosie O'Donnell's "ching chong" backlash.


But to your point. YES. Exactly. Take a second to consider what I mean here though, and I'd love if Mumbles can give his opinion on what I'm going to say.

The unconscious racism is a problem because people are unaware that they are doing it, but everyone is racist especially here in the US. Everyone judges races by stereotypes and even if a person doesn't fit into the stereotype, there's still something in the back of our minds.

The difference between "white racism" where people stereotype white people and "black racism" is extreme.

Ex. For me I used to get really frustrated as a lily white blonde haired blue eyed chick, how most black people I met used to tell me how much easier my life was than theirs. I felt it was disrespectful and presumed way too much and it pissed me off.

But a black woman's experiences with racism is going to be much more severe. IOW Not being able to get a job, being treated like a shoplifter on a regular basis, etc etc. It's got a much harsher impact on a persons self image in life when these "head under the water" versions of racism impact your everyday life.

Years ago I sounded a lot like you did but I had a wake up call (a few) that changed my perspective.

I took a job at Housing Works here in NYC upper east side on 71rst Street. And the manager there was basically trying to get an assistant manager who wanted to help him steal. I figured out pretty quickly that he was stealing from the register every day and having me sign off on it as someone else's mistake. Since it was a Thrift Store there were major problems with tracking inventory because it was mostly walk in donations that were resold. He had been through 3 assistant managers in a year. That should have been a red flag but I was young and didn't pay it attention.

I was a single mother with two small kids. The woman who he fired before me was a single mother with two small kids, but she was black. I lasted 3 months and wound up getting fired (but not before I got him fired as well by documenting his theft and turning him in) When I got fired I walked around the corner to Lexington Avenue and within a few hours I had gotten another job as a waitress.

I ran into the black woman who had gotten fired before me and she had not been able to get a job since she lost her job. I knew the restaurant I was working in had two shift openings and she was experienced, beautiful and intelligent. I was excited to help her and told her to come down for the job. As I was setting up she walked in and the manager told her that there were no openings. We had agreed before she came in not to say we knew each other because we figured that they might not want two friends working together. So she came in all ready to interview and the manager there said there were no openings. When she offered to leave her resume he refused to take it, saying that it was a waste of her time.

Obviously when she left I went up to see what had happened and he flat out told me he would never hire a black waitress because "they're lazy, they don't know how build a check, and the customers up here don't like them."

I eventually quit but it dawned on me at that moment, what the difference was in being a black woman and being a white woman even in NYC a really diverse place. The fact that I as a single mother could instantly get a job and that this woman couldn't and was struggling for months, based solely on her race was scary.

Another perspective? I worked in real estate renting apartments here in Brooklyn for several years. I don't think I rented to a single black person. The landlords would flat out tell me "No African Americans" and one time I had a well spoken black man who worked at the UN stand there as the landlord told me he had "lost the keys to the apartment" and wouldn't show it to him. I flipped on the landlord and we got there and man knew the deal and basically told me not to waste his time because he knew the man wouldn't rent it to him. But I had to show it anyway because I could have lost my licence.

These are not "jokes" these are direct impacts on the very basics of living.


Racism is everywhere.

IMO by seeing it and talking about it and pushing it forward, we not only validate the experiences of the black community but we also start knocking over the subtle racism and the problems. I should have turned that landlord in and the restaurant owner in but I had run out of energy at that point. So instead I decided to be more mindful of how I was racist in my own life.

I will paste a story below that I have shared elsewhere.

One is a time when I was lost in Corona Queens. I was looking for a side street and wandering around this beautiful estate like looking homes. I decided to just ask someone. Looking around I saw a black man mowing the lawn in front of a large Victorian home. His tools were piled on the walk way and he was dressed in shorts and a tee shirt. "Ah," I thought, "What a great person to ask. I bet that landscaper knows the neighborhood pretty well. He probably works for several home owners in the area."

So I plodded over and with each step closer I felt the yammering voice in the back of my head go bonkers on me. "Wow how delightfully racist you are little mama, if that was a white man mowing his lawn would you have assumed he was the landscaper????" Oh my GOD. I was mortified. No one really knew, it's my secret but I share it with people because I've done it before and I'll do it again and I suck donkey balls for doing this. I hate it when racism comes skipping through my head in that thoughtless way. It really sends a message that all good intentions aside, all efforts to do better I fail. Well, there I am the racist alive and well.


That's the problem with getting defensive about accusations of racism. If you haven't really really really looked at your own actions in life, it's too easy to decide that the simple solution is to get over it.

The difference between Chapelle's joke and Julianne Hough dressing up in black face is that his was a thoughtful decisive real speech. Hers was a careless thoughtless action. She obviously didn't mean it to be racist, but that's the problem with unconscious racism.


Sorry so long
 
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That's fair, but a good part of Chapelle's comedy is that he is inviting people to mock racism itself.

I agree. This is why it's such a shame to see such an obviously intelligent man fall back on such easy, ill-considered stereotyping.

But here's the point: Chapelle freely claimed that he was a racist, and then, on stage, mocked *Korean* immigrants, using stereotypes of *Chinese* immigrants. The entire joke is that Chapelle is *so* ignorant, that he'll spew racism against *Chinese* people, to attack a *Korean* shop owner, and has no clue that he's attacking the shop owner using the wrong racial insults.

Well, firstly, I'd say that rather than being a stereotypical Chinese accent, it was a stereotypical East Asian accent. Secondly, the accent he used and the insults the character he was playing used are two separate issues. And, thirdly, even if that weren't the case, he hit about every Korean convenience store owner stereotype I've ever seen in American media.
 
I agree. This is why it's such a shame to see such an obviously intelligent man fall back on such easy, ill-considered stereotyping.



Well, firstly, I'd say that rather than being a stereotypical Chinese accent, it was a stereotypical East Asian accent. Secondly, the accent he used and the insults the character he was playing used are two separate issues. And, thirdly, even if that weren't the case, he hit about every Korean convenience store owner stereotype I've ever seen in American media.

I'm curious why you think that this was unintentional? That's the whole point of the skit???:confused:
 
truethat, I have no idea what anything you typed is supposed to have to do with anything I've typed, any opinion I hold, or any action I'm supposed to have taken in life.
 
truethat, I have no idea what anything you typed is supposed to have to do with anything I've typed, any opinion I hold, or any action I'm supposed to have taken in life.


Well, how have you been racist towards the black community in your own life? If you say you haven't, you are really really in denial. That's the point Chapelle is making.

That's why "unconscious racism" tends to be so offensive. That's why the "some of my best friends are black" and the "I am not a racist but <insert racist comment here>" statements have become a joke, because everyone is racist. And the problem is when white people act like they are one of the "good guys" and they aren't racist.


ETA Yikes, my bad, I confused you with Vortigern
 
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No wonder you're confused, you seem to be arguing against things I've not said.



You do seem to be saying it's different for him to mock the Korean owner. So that part of what I'm replying to you with is towards you, the longer comment about the unconscious racism is directed towards Vortigen
 
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You are responsible for your income.
If there is a problem with that, it's your problem, and not cureable by "equalization"... taking from the more fortunate.
Work at getting more, not taking some from those that have more.

'the more fortunate' who are they and why are they 'fortunate'?
 
Without wanting to get all A+ on the thread, I don't think you can say that the examples are equivalent, unless you're contending that "the white accent" has historically been used to keep the oppressed minority of white people in America down.

I guess I need you to explain what you meant by this. I must have misinterpreted it.:confused:
 

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