Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Briars]

Briars, if you started eating around 9 pm what time do you think food begins transiting from your stomach to your duodenum?

Choose several. (Don't make a mistake or we will convict you for a crime you did not commit and sentence you to 26 years in prison.)

• 10:30 pm?
• 11 pm?
• 11:30 pm?
• 12 midnight?
• 12:30 am?
• 1 am?
• 1:30 am?

.
That would depend on what was eaten was it a fatty cheese pizza and apple fatty crumble ? Was there alcohol consumed?Did my partner and I have a big blow up argument?All could delay digestion by hours. No in fact it was a lovely dinner in a great restaurant close to the Etruscan arch.So digestion would be in the normal range , having Just a little wine, and no cheese. Thank you for believing it was my video and the timing. For non believers a little wager and pay pal could work. I'd just have to dig up the SD card and post again under Briars. Were you at all interested in seeing the view to the gate from near where Curatolo sat? Were you at all surprised by the amount of traffic near the cottage?

 

[andreajo]

So in their effort to ferret out "contradictory and illogical reasoning as to the non- recognition of aggravating teleological links", they show us that the evidence re AK screaming (ie stress), as well as the testimony by AK that she afraid to be alone (roommate murdered - illogical to be afraid?) are all ignored or disbelieved by the SC.

I think the word illogical is being abused.

They keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means.

 

[acbytesla]

.
That would depend on what was eaten was it a fatty cheese pizza and apple fatty crumble ? Was there alcohol consumed?Did my partner and I have a big blow up argument?All could delay digestion by hours. No in fact it was a lovely dinner in a great restaurant close to the Etruscan arch.So digestion would be in the normal range , having Just a little wine, and no cheese. Thank you for believing it was my video and the timing. For non believers a little wager and pay pal could work. I'd just have to dig up the SD card and post again under Briars. Were you at all interested in seeing the view to the gate from near where Curatolo sat? Were you at all surprised by the amount of traffic near the cottage?

This so intellectually dishonest Briars. There is no empirical evidence that supports this argument. Why is that the PGP makes these speculative arguments out of whole cloth?

 

[Briars]

This so intellectually dishonest Briars. There is no empirical evidence that supports this argument. Why is that the PGP makes these speculative arguments out of whole cloth?

You are the dishonest one here, A fatty meal with some alcohol can slow digestion. An ugly argument beginning after the group arrived could halt it Stress can halt not just only slow digestion.

 

[RWVBWL]

Time to play some ball...

Is this the one? it's not very good and one has to be right next to the edge of the road at just the right place to see the wall and window.

If there were many people there at 8:45 that night why don't we have more video snips showing them coming and going? It was a holiday night where even Giacomo deserted his Meredith to go home and visit at home.

The big discos were closed because of slow business. Le Chic was slow because people don't go out much that night. No one but a heroin addict on heroin that night even claimed to see them. <snip>

Hi Grinder, and ya'all,
Rudy Guede says a couple of different times that he saw people playing basketball when he left Meredith's flat as she lay dying:

When I left the house, I went through the basketball court where Chinese guys were playing and then I went home.

Quote above is from a statement to German authorities, Koblenz, Nov. 21, 2007.
Link:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/04/28/rudy-guede-amanda-knox-was-not-there/


From reading Rudy Guede's German Prison Diary:

I left the house in shock. I was outside, but didn’t know
where to go, seeing still all that blood. It was all so red. I
thought of going home. I had wet trousers and tried to
cover it with the sweatshirt. There were a lot of people in the street, in Piazza Grimana. There were some guys still playing basketball even though it was dark.
I arrived back home, not knowing what to do. I remember
having taken off my pants. I changed only those, because
of the clothes I was wearing, only the trousers were dirty.
I put on the “Pelle Pelle” ones, I remember because many
of my friends said they looked like pajamas. I washed my
hands, they were full of blood, in the sink, and I left. I just
wasn’t able to stay home. It seemed I was seeing blood
everywhere. I went to Alex’s house, where, by the way, I
already passed, an hour

I find it weird how Guede writes that there were a lotta people in the streeet, and also playing basketball, BUT yet the cops never found any of the Chinese guys who mighta saw Guede leaving Mereidth's flat or walking by the basketball court. Where was "Toto" around 10:00pm, What was he doing? Shooting up?

Alessandra Formica stated in court that it was NOT Rudy Guede she bumped into that evening. I believe her, Guede was long gone by then.

I find it also weird too how none of the dudes playing basketball ever see Amanda nor Raff that night too. Just the drug dealer high on heroin at the time...
RW

 

[Strozzi]

.
That would depend on what was eaten was it a fatty cheese pizza and apple fatty crumble ? Was there alcohol consumed?Did my partner and I have a big blow up argument?All could delay digestion by hours. No in fact it was a lovely dinner in a great restaurant close to the Etruscan arch.So digestion would be in the normal range , having Just a little wine, and no cheese. Thank you for believing it was my video and the timing. For non believers a little wager and pay pal could work. I'd just have to dig up the SD card and post again under Briars. Were you at all interested in seeing the view to the gate from near where Curatolo sat? Were you at all surprised by the amount of traffic near the cottage?

Briars, as for the time it takes for food to commence transiting from the stomach, I will heed the analysis by the experts.

I dd look at your video. It shows light pedestrian and vehicle traffic on the summer evening when you made your video. I have to wonder how traffic on the evening you chose compares with traffic on the evening of Nov 1, 2007, All Saints' Day.

Your video shows me how difficult it is to see the cottage in the dark. I could see at one point the front door wall but could not discern detail or depth to that wall. I did not see the adjacent side wall where Filomena's window is located. That side wall was dark.

It is also very difficult to see the gate area and the interior of the driveway or car park. I only saw the gate in the headlights of a passing car when the car was immediately passing the gate area. The gate was not visible to me before or after the car's headlights illuminated the opening to the gate.

I realize you take pride in showing this video. You covered a lot of footsteps. Your video also convinces me that Rudy could very easily get to the car park area and do what he did without being observed.

As I have said before, our personal views and weighing of the pros and cons of this location are irrelevant. What matters is how the burglar felt about the location when he commenced his action. He apparently was satisfied.

 

[Strozzi]

You are the dishonest one here, A fatty meal with some alcohol can slow digestion. An ugly argument beginning after the group arrived could halt it Stress can halt not just only slow digestion.

Briars, digestion is an imprecise word. What we are interested in is understanding the time it took for food which Meredith ate commencing at 6 or 6:30 pm to start entering her duodenum. I go on scientific evidence and I, a layman, do not make it up. There are commentators here who understand how the body functions, including the effects that cheesy food or alcohol have. They know of the scientific literature on this. Don't make this up because of your personal desire for a late time of death.

Please also remember pizza normally consists of bread product in addition to cheese and tomato sauce. I know of no claim that bread ceases to pass from the stomach in an ordinary manner just because cheese is also present. If so, then Italians must be constantly in distress since bread products and cheese products are staples in their diets.

 

[Poppy1016]

.
It keeps people discussing Briar's agenda, instead of discussing important issues like what happened to the gold watch Rudy stole, why Rudy was released, why the Perugian police even knew who Rudy was when the Milan police contacted them, how Rudy circumvented the alarm at the lawyer's office, how he gained access to the school, was he a police informant.

Rudy BRUTALLY MURDERED Meredith. Meredith, who just like Raffaele and Amanda would never hurt anyone, who was just a student preparing for an honest life, who just wanted to come home to a quiet apartment, study a bit, and go to bed, had her whole beautiful life and future ended in an instant by a cold heartless savage Rudy and his knife. Rudy, who had absolutely NO business being there. He broke in. He was a burglar. The cottage was dark and empty. He even admits to being there around 8:30 pm and seeing nobody was home. He was a burglar. He broke in. It is what burglars do! I repeat. It is what burglars do!! Let me repeat it one more time. It is what burglars do!! His choice of entry does not depend on Briar's opinion, it depends on his own opinion. He was a burglar. He not only broke in, he broke in the same way he broke into the lawyer's office by climbing the grate to get to the second floor. He was even more visible there, by the way. He used large rocks to break windows for entry. He was a burglar. It is what burglars do!!

So ignore all the evidence that 'poor' Rudy broke in and cut Meredith's throat Briars. Respect for Meredith? CRAP! Protecting Mignini, yeah.
.

Bravo. Well said.

 

[Dan O.]

What does "ingresso" mean?

From the context, it probably means that there won't be any cars doing the egresso from that end of the car park.

Of course, if you want pictures, when I get back to a real computer i'll see if I can access the earlier images of that intersection from before they reprinted the lane markers.

It appears what I originally thought was a crosswalk is just the same diamond pattern road marking that still exists at that intersection.

 

[RWVBWL]

22 minutes later?

What's up everyone!
The other day I mentioned that I believe that Rudy Guede's awareness of time was off and hence, his recollection of the time of Meredith's scream was too early, as he was off by about 20 minutes or so.

But I forgot to quote + link an important detail that I'd just recently read::
Rudy says that he came back around 8:30 to hook-up with Meredith, she wasn't there yet, but arrived 8 minutes later, which we know was right around 9:00pm.

I'll try to explain better by using Guede's own words from a couple of different sources, ok? Cool.

Statement to German authorities, Koblenz, Nov. 21, 2007.
On October 31, 2007, I was out with my Spanish friends. On that occasion we met Meredith. I flirted with her. We made a date for November 1 at her house at 8:30 p.m. At 19.30 (7:30) or 19.45 (7:45), I left my flat. I can’t specify the precise hour, because I don’t wear a watch. I soon found my friend Alex, then I went to Meredith’s house, but she wasn’t there. I looked for the two Italians with whom I play basketball, but they weren’t home.

Then I went into the center and bought a kebab and returned to Meredith’s. I bought the kebab at the place near “La Tana Dell’Orso.” When I returned, at first nobody was there. After about eight minutes, Meredith arrived and opened the door for me and we entered. First we talked a little, and because we had flirted the night before, we kissed. We did not have sex. I did not rape Meredith. To prove this, I am willing to undergo all the necessary medical tests. Then I went into the bathroom that is next to Amanda’s room, Meredith instead to her room close to that.

That (day) I was happy. For this, I left home early, I
think around 7:30 in the evening. I first went to Alex’s
house, but he didn’t immediately open (the door). I
think about 5 minutes went by. I waited a bit because I
saw the light of his room on, and I waited. In fact, he
was washing himself. It had been a while since I’d
seen him. In fact, he went for awhile to his home in
Greece. I talked with him a little at his place, and then I
left, saying that we’d see each other later. This was
our appointment. I said to Alex that I was going to eat
and I’d return later, then seeing that it was still early…

Before my meeting with Meredith, I went to the town
center. I walked around, to see where to eat. Then I
decided to eat at the Kebap, so I went toward the one
that’s next to “La Tana dell’Orso.” I met Philip there, an
Austrian friend who was speaking with a girl and he
directed me to the Kebap and I ordered something to
eat. I waited a bit because in front of me there were
two girls who were ordering. Then I ate and went
towards Philip, who was still talking. With Philip I
talked at length, then we agreed to meet later at Alex’s
place. I told Philip I had to go meet someone, and he
jokingly asked me if it was a guy or a girl. I pointed out
it was a girl, because he was referring to an awful onenight
stand that happened to me a few days before,
regarding a “guy.”

Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the
running around I did, I think it would have been around
8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to
see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a
watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive
late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white
car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw
on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this,
and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no
one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place,
but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the
yard.

Some time later, here's Meredith, she was smiling, and
asked me how long I’d been waiting, and I told her for
about one minute. She smiled, then took the keys out
of her purse, opened the door, and we entered. There
wasn't anyone in the house because it was dark
everywhere, in the kitchen, in the living room, then she
yelled "Anybody here," to let people know she was
back, but there was no answer from the other rooms.
Even though I’d bought some drinks with the kebab, I
needed to drink some more because it was very spicy,
and I asked her if I could drink something. She told me
to help myself as if I was at my place. I opened the
fridge and drank some apricot juice and water too.
Since she wasn't paying attention, I drank out of the
bottle because I didn't know where the glasses were,
and then I sat down.

RG: I was in the bathroom, so for me, well, I didn't worry about it, because anyway in the end we were going to be seeing each other and... I was in the bathroom, in the bathroom maybe five minutes. So, I really had to take this ****, but then I heard a scream, but let me tell you, a really loud scream, so loud that according to me, if anyone was passing by, nearby, they would have heard this scream, because she screamed so loud...and then, then, I got a bit worried and I got out of the bathroom right away, without even putting my pants back on, they were practically falling down, I was wearing just my underwear and my pants were falling around my...
GB: But if I understand, I mean like where was this...I mean, what time do you think this happened, I don't know...
RG: Around nine, nine twenty or so, because in the meantime we had gotten to talking and all.
GB: I see.
RG: I think nine‐twenty, nine‐thirty, around then, and then, when I heard the scream, let me tell you she screamed so loud that you could hear it even in the street, Giacomo, she screamed really loud. When I came out, it was in semi‐darkness, I came out and I saw him.

Guede's sayin' that when he 1st got there, no one was home, he split, saw a friend and ate, came back, still no one there but Mez arrived about 8 minutes later. (When she asked how long he waited, he lied, tellin' her only a minute, didn't wanna appear too desparate, ya know, bein' on a 1st date and all!)

He mistakenly thought it was 8:30 when he got there, but it woulda been 8:52 or a llittle closer to 9:00pm. Meredith's loud scream would then be about 22 minutes later then he estimated when conversing on the Skype call to Giacomo Benedetti, hence I believe that The Scream occurred later than 9:20 or 9:30, nearer to 10:00pm...

Does any of this make sense to you?
RW

PS-Heya Grinder,
it looks like, from re-reading Guede's Prison Diary,
he had an awful 1 night stand with a "guy" a few days before Meredith's date with him,
I'll add that to my Guede-o checklist, hahaha!

 

[Strozzi]

Guede writes that there were a lotta people in the streeet, and also playing basketball, BUT yet the cops never found any of the Chinese guys who mighta saw Guede leaving Mereidth's flat or walking by the basketball court.

RWVBWL, you just let the cat out of the bag! You weren't supposed to do that yet! You have just revealed the prosecution's closing surprise - the new evidence that Rudy wrote a letter to a newspaper stating that there was a Chinese basketball squad warming up at the basketball court at 11 pm on Nov 1. Rudy's letter affirms that the Chinese squad saw Amanda and Raffaele hanging out by the railing until midnight. They also vouch for Rudy's good character and affirm that Curatalo was not high on heroin that night. He was smoking opium given to him by Snake Eyes Du and the Green Gang. The prosecution will assert that opium encourages good vision and a clear mind.

 

[RWVBWL]

Strozzi,
I have busted out laughin' more than a few times readin' your postings!
Luv em.

 

[Samson]

My 2 bits.

Sunset was at about 5 pm on the beginning of November. It would have been a third quarter moon (half moon) brightest in the sky at sunrise IIUC. Thus it would have been very dark except for any lighting which someone else can illuminate on.

That property is clearly in a very recessed position and on the very edge of the concentration of dwellings. This conversation about visibility and thus desirability for a burglar seems fairly clear cut. Seems like an ideal choice for a break in.

Particularly ideal with a bit of local knowledge, personnel, layout, probabilities of cash here and there. If Meredith had behaved as a normal party girl, out to midnight on Friday night, he would soon have been passing a lazy joint with the boys downstairs sharing the outrage at the mystery burglar that broke in.

 

[RandyN]

You are the dishonest one here, A fatty meal with some alcohol can slow digestion. An ugly argument beginning after the group arrived could halt it Stress can halt not just only slow digestion.

Ahhh ya, NO! Halt it for a small amount of time...minutes perhaps...not the hours you want us to swallow. Please. You may just be wrong or you may be dishonest and wrong. I will gladly review your data on digestion. Please provide everything about cheese and apple what? I'm guessing something like apple crisp? No matter. Show us the data that allows a meal started at around 6 or 6:30 and remains completely in the stomach until the prosecutors TOD after 11:30 which has to be the case going by super witness Toto. Go on...this should be a snap.

 

[Strozzi]

Strozzi,
I have busted out laughin' more than a few times readin' your postings!
Luv em.

I work for the prosecution. Can't you tell? My job is to flesh out the weak points so the judges can see how it all fits together.

 

[RandyN]

What's up everyone!
The other day I mentioned that I believe that Rudy Guede's awareness of time was off and hence, his recollection of the time of Meredith's scream was too early, as he was off by about 20 minutes or so.

But I forgot to quote + link an important detail that I'd just recently read::
Rudy says that he came back around 8:30 to hook-up with Meredith, she wasn't there yet, but arrived 8 minutes later, which we know was right around 9:00pm.

I'll try to explain better by using Guede's own words from a couple of different sources, ok? Cool.











Guede's sayin' that when he 1st got there, no one was home, he split, saw a friend and ate, came back, still no one there but Mez arrived about 8 minutes later. (When she asked how long he waited, he lied, tellin' her only a minute, didn't wanna appear too desparate, ya know, bein' on a 1st date and all!)

He mistakenly thought it was 8:30 when he got there, but it woulda been 8:52 or a llittle closer to 9:00pm. Meredith's loud scream would then be about 22 minutes later then he estimated when conversing on the Skype call to Giacomo Benedetti, hence I believe that The Scream occurred later than 9:20 or 9:30, nearer to 10:00pm...

Does any of this make sense to you? RW
PS-Heya Grinder,
it looks like, from re-reading Guede's Prison Diary,
he had an awful 1 night stand with a "guy" a few days before Meredith's date with him,
I'll add that to my Guede-o checklist, hahaha!

I think the only thing we are pretty sure about is that MK arrived home very close to or at 9:04 PM . What RG says does little to help us factually anyway. He is about as worthless for time stamping something as Nara is, or Toto for that matter. We know the police and prosecutor screwed the pooch on the parking lot clock error. That is verifiable. But then again all that means is that once again they are wrong in a long list of being wrong.

Guede was gone near or around 10PM. I don't think MK murder took more than a few minutes at most. I think Guede came and went outside, downstairs, and maybe back to the upper floor any number of times...checking to see if she was dead, remembering to steal her money, whatever. The blood and messed up sheets downstairs did not happen by themselves. Nor did the wet flip flops.

Any yet we can pinpoint Guedes location near Lanas around what? 10:10 -10:15 PM.

Sorry nothing meaningful for me at least. Do you recall when the black guy who was not Guede ran into the gal on the steps? Does anyone have the stats on the black population of Perugia in 2007?

 

[RWVBWL]

Comparing them? Who has missed the point? They are opposite .The blogger has been a main source for FOA , feeding distorted information about Mignini. His particular style blames his own shortcomings and crimes on others. His writing has been taken for truth by IIP , Dempsey ,the US media ,and you. That was my point.

Heya Briars,
I'm wondering, since you've been posting recently about the area surrounding the flat so much, have you seen The CCTV Car Park video?

Do you think that it was Rudy Guede walking towards Miss Kercher?

Here's a link to a video Moodstream shared + we discussed 3 years ago,
back when you Guilter's were once happy, because Amanda+Raff were still imprisoned:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tH-klo4nGQ


Ya know something Briars?
FS saw Rudy Guede a buncha times in court and Perugia Shock told it like it was,
Guede has a distinctive walk and that video ain't him.
PS rocks!

Besides,
if you read my long post above, you would know that Guede has always maintained that he was already waiting at Meredith's house so he could try to, ya might say, forget the memory of an awful 1 night stand with a "guy" from a few days earlier.

 

[RandyN]

Why would Amanda give a brass razoo to that conniving slob Lumumba? She is correctly appealing the conviction for lying. Your suggestion is like lengthening the jail sentence of an innocent person for "showing no remorse".[/QUOT
There is no further chance to appeal her Calunnia she had been convicted and had the SC sign off. She is receiving bad advice and should have paid her fine.

I'm sure ten others have pointed this out already but its late and I'm off to lala land...

She is appealing this wrongful conviction of Calunnia awarded to the conniving liar Lumumba to the European Court Of Human Rights of which Italy is a signature member. The ECOHR regularly finds Italian courts in violation of the human rights laws by its courts. IN fact Italy has the worst record of violations in the Western world. WAFS....Huh?

 

[JREF2010]

Do you recall when the black guy who was not Guede ran into the gal on the steps? Does anyone have the stats on the black population of Perugia in 2007?

10-10:30 per her parking ticket. I don't know if the ticket was submitted as evidence. I read she was a police witness. Mixed reports of "balck man", it wasn't RUdy, he fled quickly ...

this was always an interesting event because from the Alessandra Formica testimony, and arrival on the scene the broken down car and tow truck scene followed serially, and that lead to the "line in the dirt" of either the murder was before or after as several didn't see anyone fleeing the cottage driveway or heard a scream so loud Nara was startled and Toto didn't ..oh nevermind..

from the guilter site"
Comment. It does seem that she most likely saw Guede leaving the crime scene, at between 10:00 and 10:30pm. This also fits with one of Meredith’s stolen mobile phone picking up another cell tower at 10:13pm. If Guede took the phones, it seems to me that this helped the Knox and Sollecito defenses more than the prosecution.

another article form the guilter site 2009
Also on Saturday, the boyfriend of Alessandra Formica who apparently saw a black man similar to Guede running up the stairs near the house will testify. He and his girlfriend are often referred to as the diners, and they were returning to their parked car at the time. This could be vital to a firm timeline.

another piece of info-translated:
The next witness was Alessandra Formica. She is the person who had informed the police that she and her boyfriend, while walking back to their car after dinner, bumped into a “person of color” on her way. Essentially she testified that she and her boyfriend had parked their car in the famous parking building across from Meredith’s house around 8:00pm. They walked out of the garage, past the house, up across the square, and through the Etruscan arch to have dinner. The place was full so they waited about 40-50 minutes and finally finished dinner around 9:30pm. They then took a short walk in the center of the old city and then headed down to their car. As they passed the basketball courts and started down the stairs and onto the road that leads down to Via della Pergola, she noticed a man in a dark puffy jacket, walking in a hurry with his head down, and he bumped into her. She focused on his face and could state the he was a “person of color” which essentially meant a black man. She said “excuse me” and he said nothing and just kept going quickly in a rush. She noted how rude that was (rude as in “ill mannered” not ruede-y!) That incident occurred, by her estimates and the garage ticket, around 10:00-10:30pm. She also remarked that just near the parking building entrance there was a station wagon with a guy outside it on his mobile phone, calling for help as the car did not start. She also saw a women in the back seat with a baby seat next to her…baby or in it not she could not say. Comment. It does seem that she most likely saw Guede leaving the crime scene, at between 10:00 and 10:30pm. This also fits with one of Meredith’s stolen mobile phone picking up another cell tower at 10:13pm. If Guede took the phones, it seems to me that this helped the Knox and Sollecito defensesd more than the prosecution

 

[Mary_H]

Comparing them? Who has missed the point? They are opposite .The blogger has been a main source for FOA , feeding distorted information about Mignini. His particular style blames his own shortcomings and crimes on others. His writing has been taken for truth by IIP , Dempsey ,the US media ,and you. That was my point.

And....? What difference does it make?

Ergon wrote something similar on TJMK:

Why is Frank Sfarzo so important to this case? It is about public perception about the guilt, or innocence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, and how he was the source of many of the myths about the case and prosecutor Giuliani Mignini that have made it into the mainstream media.

What difference does it make, Briars? Do you agree with Ergon that this case really is about public perception? Or do you think the judges can make up their own minds?