Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Briars]

Why don't you do us a favor and do a proper translation. Do you think his approach is the right approach? Should guilt hang on alleged hygiene?

Poor hygiene was only one of the areas of tension between the girls. I see know where where that was his only point . Though you might think so here .

 

[Skind]

I have trouble linking video's with my I pad maybe you can, via della pergola utube. I never suggested there was a crowd nor did there need to be for Rudy to worry about a passerby seeing him. The video of the car park on the 1st shows two cars near the gate a and a car entering the car park. There is also someone exiting that has not been positively identified as Rudy. Plenty of activity in less that 3 minutes. When I was n Perugia around 8:30 near the car park there were at least 3 cars coming and going at that hour. Parking is difficult to find in the historic centre so the car park is well used. At 10:30 pm there just may not have been a car , lucky for them. However witnesses heard the scream and reported the man running up the stairs.

You would have noticed that the cars are facing away from the house if they were driving in or out.

How many pedestrians did you see turn to face the house at any point?

 

[kwill]

Google translate is your problem

How about just this bit:

Amanda at the time the crime was concentrated, made an explosive mixture of sex, drugs and alcohol, not separated by a marked lack of hygienic care. . . And you cannot be candid outside unless you are neat and clean in the folds of the soul and spirit.

It's only two sentences, come on. I'm eager to hear how a good translation mentions explosive mixing of sex, drugs, and alcohol with a marked lack of hygenic care in the same line.

Amanda was drunk, stoned, and wild for sex, plus she picked her nose?
Amanda was reeling with drugs and booze, on the hunt for more sex, plus she left a toilet unscrubbed once?
Amanda was erupting with the need for more sex, falling down drunk, cross-eyed with drugs, plus she hadn't washed her hair?

Also, the second sentence above would be intriguing to Freud if it's anything like what google came up with. What does a good translation say?

The neatness and cleanliness of the folds of your soul? I think the speaker had the neatness and cleanliness of some of her other "folds" in mind, if that's what he said.

 

[acbytesla]

Delete ...dupe

 

[acbytesla]

What are the charges against Spezi? Do you believe they are real?

Defamation . What else in the stupid world of Italy? One of the only western countries that has criminalized defamation.

defamation against the writer and former Gides Michele Giuttari in the book “Reviewed in jail.” The trial will be held on 15 May 2014.”

NO. More trumped up crap by Mignini's partner in the MOF case.

 

[acbytesla]

Poor hygiene was only one of the areas of tension between the girls. I see know where where that was his only point . Though you might think so here .

Seriously, you buy into this crap? Even Massei said there wasn't any problems between the girls.

What is it about you nutters? Do you really think Amanda would kill Meredith because of a toilet not being flushed?

 

[Briars]

Seriously, you buy into this crap? Even Massei said there wasn't any problems between the girls.

What is it about you nutters? Do you really think Amanda would kill Meredith because of a toilet not being flushed?

Over a toilet of course not and Crini didn't say that was the reason. He speculated how an argument started , the frustration were already present . The complex nature of Amanda and the collective disfunction of the defendants caused a scenario to erupt.

 

[Skind]

Over a toilet of course not and Crini didn't say that was the reason. He speculated how an argument started , the frustration were already present . The complex nature of Amanda and the collective disfunction of the defendants caused a scenario to erupt.

That's actually 4 speculations, none of which meet the ISC standards of 'proof' that apply to this case.

Essentially, the prosecutor has failed to abide by the standards set by the ISC.

Of course, we all know those standards have thus far only been applied to the defence......

 

[Briars]

How about just this bit:



It's only two sentences, come on. I'm eager to hear how a good translation mentions explosive mixing of sex, drugs, and alcohol with a marked lack of hygenic care in the same line.

Amanda was drunk, stoned, and wild for sex, plus she picked her nose?
Amanda was reeling with drugs and booze, on the hunt for more sex, plus she left a toilet unscrubbed once?
Amanda was erupting with the need for more sex, falling down drunk, cross-eyed with drugs, plus she hadn't washed her hair?

Also, the second sentence above would be intriguing to Freud if it's anything like what google came up with. What does a good translation say?

The neatness and cleanliness of the folds of your soul? I think the speaker had the neatness and cleanliness of some of her other "folds" in mind, if that's what he said.

I think any translation of an important document should be by a native speaker. It is an arduous process but one I imagine PMF will take on.

 

[Bill Williams]

Over a toilet of course not and Crini didn't say that was the reason. He speculated how an argument started , the frustration were already present . The complex nature of Amanda and the collective disfunction of the defendants caused a scenario to erupt.

He "speculated"? Let's just sit on that for a moment, everyone take a breath, take another sip of coffee......

He "speculated"? Of course he had evidence of this? Wait a minute, he actually didn't.

The "collective dysfunction of the defendents"? Of course you have evidence of this? No, wait, your side gets to speculate and have those speculative assertions treated as fact.

I suppose you'll point to the place in Massei's motivations report where he, the convicting judge, wrote of this complex psychopathology. No wait, Massei wrote about them being psychologically normal. Massei assigned a theological concept, and a brief one at that, to explain their alleged actions: they made a brief choice for evil.

You should read Massei. It's on all the websites.

But again you do not need to. You have evidenceless assertions. As does Crini. Why didnt you tell us that assertions trump evidence?

 

[acbytesla]

Over a toilet of course not and Crini didn't say that was the reason. He speculated how an argument started , the frustration were already present . The complex nature of Amanda and the collective disfunction of the defendants caused a scenario to erupt.

You're right. He speculated. He speculated without a single shred of evidence to support it. He pulled it out of his backside. How is that Filomena and Laura never spoke about actual arguments between the pair? How is it that Amanda and Meredith actually spent a lot of time together until the last week, when Amanda started spending all her time with Raffaele? They went to the chocolate festival and the concert together not just a week earlier. Meredith drew a tattoo on Amanda a couple of days before her murder.

Amanda's dysfunction? Surely, ye jest. How is that no one in the US has seen this so called dysfunction?...or really anyone in Italy for that matter. Why is that her classmates at the UW and Seattle Prep etc says she is a very nice girl? Why is it that Madison Paxton dropped everything to go support Amanda in Italy? And the two are super close to this day. Why is that Judge Heavy's daughter who went to school with Amanda for years says she is about the sweetest girl you will ever meet? Why is it that here manager and coworkers at the coffee house she worked at in Seattle said they loved her?

Why is it necessary to speculate on non-existent tension between the two?

Seriously? Why is it you buy into this bull that is pulled out of thin air while there is a mountain of evidence that shows that Amanda is a very nice girl without a bit of violence in her life's history?

You should think about it.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think any translation of an important document should be by a native speaker. It is an arduous process but one I imagine PMF will take on.

Which PMF? Currently Michael and Peggy are fighting over Meredith's memory..... but then you don't want that talked about, do you. Do you realize Peter Q supports one and not the other?

 

[andreajo]

Over a toilet of course not and Crini didn't say that was the reason. He speculated how an argument started , the frustration were already present . The complex nature of Amanda and the collective disfunction of the defendants caused a scenario to erupt.

What do you mean by "the complex nature of Amanda"? What do you mean by "the collective disfunction of the defendants"? Those are pretty broad and squishy descriptions that could mean anything or nothing. You can't go putting people in prison for their complex natures and unspecified collective dysfunctions.

 

[kwill]

I think any translation of an important document should be by a native speaker. It is an arduous process but one I imagine PMF will take on.

I'm asking for two sentences, for heaven's sake, not a dissertation. And I thought you were fluent -- or have I mixed you up with someone else?

 

[Bill Williams]

Over a toilet of course not and Crini didn't say that was the reason. He speculated how an argument started , the frustration were already present . The complex nature of Amanda and the collective disfunction of the defendants caused a scenario to erupt.

What do you mean by "the complex nature of Amanda"? What do you mean by "the collective disfunction of the defendants"? Those are pretty broad and squishy descriptions that could mean anything or nothing. You can't go putting people in prison for their complex natures and unspecified collective dysfunctions.

Apparently there are at least two prosecutors in Italy willing to give it the old college try!

Briars words are weasel words... they are meant to say everything to guilters, with complete deniability built in - which is of course, that they are meant to say nothing.

Both Mignini AND Crini use these speculations with abandon in their summaries.

What is partially refreshing is that the judges who have passed judgement and written motivations reports, have not fallen for it. I am serious when I say that everyone should read Massei's assessment of both Knox and Sollecito in this.... I've cut and pasted it here many times... for me, it is proof that even the convicting judge found it as factual that there was no psychopathology in Knox and/or Sollecito;

It is not possible, however, to know if Rudy went to Meredith’s room on his own initiative, almost subjugated by the situation which he interpreted in erotic terms (the two young lovers in their room and Meredith who was on her own in the room right next to it) or, instead, he went to Meredith’s room at the urging of Amanda and/or Raffaele.

This Court is inclined towards the first hypothesis.

The crime was not about Knox's hygiene or a bad relationship with Meredith, nor even pooh in the toilet. Massei believes it was all Rudy's initiative.

It cannot see, in fact, the motive for such an invitation on the part of Amanda Knox and/or of Raffaele Sollecito. Besides, Rudy does not seem to have needed to be encouraged to make advances toward Meredith. Abukar Barrow [who was] interrogated on 11 December 2007 (and whose testimony was acquired with the consensus of the parties) testified that Rudy, above all when he was drunk or under the effects of drugs, ‚bothered people, especially young women. He blocked them off physically and tried to kiss them‛.

Nevertheless, it should also be considered, and this seems to be the most probable hypothesis, that Rudy decided on his own to enter Meredith’s room,

According to the only convicting judge there is... the crime was Rudy`s and Rudy`s alone... not to do with Amanda at all - not her hygiene, not her relationship with Meredith, not pooh in the toilet.

the young woman’s reaction and refusal must have been heard by Amanda and Raffaele (Amanda’s room was very close to Meredith’s) who, in fact, must have been disturbed by them [i.e. by the reaction and the refusal] and intervened, as the progression of events and their epilogue show, backing up Rudy, whom they had brought into the house, and becoming themselves, together with Rudy, Meredith’s
aggressors, her murderers.

What Massei is setting up here is that even he concedes that Amanda and Raffaele would be disturbed by what Rudy was doing. Read that part again....

But then Massei seems to have to remind himself that even though he said this, he had, 90 days' previous, actualy convicted them, so he has to get on with saying something which makes them participate in the crime. Is it their complex natures? Is it their psychopathology as Briars and Machiavelli would want to calim? Not to Massei....

Why, then, two young people, strongly interested in each other, with intellectual and cultural curiosity, he on the eve of his graduation and she full of interests, resolved to participate in an action aimed at forcing the will of Meredith, with whom they had, especially Amanda, a relationship of regular meetings and cordiality, to the point of causing her death, falls within the continual exercise of choice among [the range of] possibilities, and this Court can only register the choice of extreme evil which was put into practice. It can be hypothesised that this choice of evil began with the [393] consumption of drugs which had happened also that evening, as Amanda testified.

There is more, but I am rather tired of continually reposting Massei's stuff... the stuff from the only judge who convicted them....

Briars and Machiavelli continue to espouse Mignini's "speculations". Good for them.

 

[moodstream]

Comparing them? Who has missed the point? They are opposite .The blogger has been a main source for FOA , feeding distorted information about Mignini. His particular style blames his own shortcomings and crimes on others. His writing has been taken for truth by IIP , Dempsey ,the US media ,and you. That was my point.

Could you unpack that for me? I hear you say that his "style blames his own shortcomings and crimes on others." This makes his reporting on the Knox case unreliable.

This is an allegation. In order to be true, you would have to site examples of how his reporting of the Amanda Knox case , I mean examples, that have nothing to do with Frank's personal interaction with the perugian authorities, are attempts to blame his own shortcomings and crimes on others.

For a minute there I though you were saying Frank staged the break in, or worse.

 

[Briars]

Which PMF? Currently Michael and Peggy are fighting over Meredith's memory..... but then you don't want that talked about, do you. Do you realize Peter Q supports one and not the other?

You have talked about this split before and I know you think it important for some reason. You may be right you belong to the more fun united IIP . They have parties with DNA experts, bloggers and mixed company. Nothing more uniting than giving the finger to Mignini in the large group photo. Undoubtedly a connected group.

 

[Briars]

Could you unpack that for me? I hear you say that his "style blames his own shortcomings and crimes on others." This makes his reporting on the Knox case unreliable.

This is an allegation. In order to be true, you would have to site examples of how his reporting of the Amanda Knox case , I mean examples, that have nothing to do with Frank's personal interaction with the perugian authorities, are attempts to blame his own shortcomings and crimes on others.

For a minute there I though you were saying Frank staged the break in, or worse.

Frank claimed he was arrested in Perugia due to his advocacy for the defendants. This is an important lie which helped to foster the bad Mignini myth. Truth is his sister called police because of a domestic issue.

 

[Grinder]

I have trouble linking video's with my I pad maybe you can, via della pergola utube. I never suggested there was a crowd nor did there need to be for Rudy to worry about a passerby seeing him. The video of the car park on the 1st shows two cars near the gate a and a car entering the car park. There is also someone exiting that has not been positively identified as Rudy. Plenty of activity in less that 3 minutes. When I was n Perugia around 8:30 near the car park there were at least 3 cars coming and going at that hour. Parking is difficult to find in the historic centre so the car park is well used. At 10:30 pm there just may not have been a car , lucky for them. However witnesses heard the scream and reported the man running up the stairs.

Is this the one? it's not very good and one has to be right next to the edge of the road at just the right place to see the wall and window.

If there were many people there at 8:45 that night why don't we have more video snips showing them coming and going? It was a holiday night where even Giacomo deserted his Meredith to go home and visit at home.

The big discos were closed because of slow business. Le Chic was slow because people don't go out much that night. No one but a heroin addict on heroin that night even claimed to see them.

Poor hygiene was only one of the areas of tension between the girls. I see know where where that was his only point . Though you might think so here .

The testimony on the record in Massei trial refutes your statement. Please provide actual testimony that supports your position on this.

 

[Bill Williams]

Which PMF? Currently Michael and Peggy are fighting over Meredith's memory..... but then you don't want that talked about, do you. Do you realize Peter Q supports one and not the other?

You have talked about this split before and I know you think it important for some reason. You may be right you belong to the more fun united IIP . They have parties with DNA experts, bloggers and mixed company. Nothing more uniting than giving the finger to Mignini in the large group photo. Undoubtedly a connected group.

I'm not trying to be critical here, but this is about the fourth time you've avoided answering something by going off on a tangent.

I say, "Did you know that Oggi is reporting that Jan 15 is Mignini's abuse of office trial," as opposed to the prelim... and you say, "Oggi is a tabloid which Frank Sfarzo writes for." WTF!?

You say, that "PMF" will be supplying a translation of Crini's ramblings, and I wonder which one of the warring "we love Meredith best" factions will be handling this? I would imagine that you are not thinking of Peggy's site... but then that's your business, not mine.

Ok, ok, it was a bit of a diversion on my part, I apologize. Still, it's instructive that in response to my diversion, you take it into, "parties with DNA experts, bloggers and mixed company," as a counter diversion.

"Mixed company"? What the heck does THAT refer to?

While we're at it.... given that this was started by saying that "PMF" would handle the translation; my question is, "which PMF?" Peggy's or Michael's? Dot.ORG or Dot.NET? Which one is the one that holds Meredith's memory most properly and therefore can be trusted to supply the "right" translation??

Whichever you choose I will regard as only an opinion.