Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Strozzi]

Pretty sure the cops kept it.

Wouldn't the Perugian lawyer who owned the laptop want it back, especially if it had client notes, memos, documents, and other work product on it. Especially if he was defending someone in a criminal case where he would not want police - be they Perugian police or Milan police - to have his case file information?

When Rudy came to the law office in Perugia to apologize for having purchased the lawyer's stolen property a week after the burglary, as he claimed, from a stranger at the Milan train station wouldn't the lawyer demand it back?

What a coincidence that Rudy from Perugia on a trip to Milan ran into a stranger at the Milan train station selling property stolen from Perugia a week earlier.

Rudy must have had money when he was in Milan to be able, as he claimed, purchase a laptop and cell phone from a stranger at the Milan train station and then paid someone else EUR 50 to allow him to break in ... er, I mean, admit him into the nursery school to sleep. Can't you get a cheap hotel room in Milan near the train station for EUR 50?

To quote Mignini: "poor Rudy".

 

[yimyammer]

[/HILITE]


Really? Where in Grinders "source" does it say Guede did not return the computer? Can you read? Don't be distracted by the Germany BS...that is not a part of my contention. Does Grinders "source" say Guede left the office with the computer? Perhaps I cant read...I am a little out of it.

Easy now big fella, I wasn't challenging you or taking a shot at you. I can definitely read, but I'll admit my comprehension seems to be faltering lately, so forgive me if I overlooked the obvious.

Previously, you said:

"He returned the equipment stolen from the lawyer and apologized"

Here's part of Grinder's quote (what is the source of this quote Grinder?):

On October 29, a colleague in the law office had called the lawyer Paolo Brocchi to tell him that in the corridor was a person who said that he had been found with some goods in Milan, goods that had been declared stolen by the lawyer Brocchi, but which he claimed to have purchased legitimately in Milan. Later, the lawyer Paolo Brocchi recognised this person as Rudy Guede (p. 20, hearing of June 6, 2009).

I was just curious where you're getting the idea he apologized or if you are just assuming he did.

I save a lot of posts and sources for future reference in this case but I like to keep verifiable sources when possible, not speculation. So, I'm merely trying to clarify whether the apology was real or assumed.

thx

 

[yimyammer]

I know how you feel yimyammer; it really is hard to make sense of. I compare the phenomenon to Tea Party ideologues. If you were to do years of research and the resulting statistics proved that social programs made the crime rate go down, they would still say they are against social programs. They would still say reality must sync up with their beliefs, not the other way around. Similarly, you can get guilters to go only so far with every argument before they walk away.

Mach is to be admired for his persistence, but he avoids answering any question that puts him on the spot, either by ignoring it or going away for few days and then coming back when the subject has changed.

I've noticed that. Sometimes I wonder if he's just messing with us and doesn't truly believe everything he writes.

 

[moodstream]

Wouldn't the Perugian lawyer who owned the laptop want it back, especially if it had client notes, memos, documents, and other work product on it. Especially if he was defending someone in a criminal case where he would not want police - be they Perugian police or Milan police - to have his case file information?

When Rudy came to the law office in Perugia to apologize for having purchased the lawyer's stolen property a week after the burglary, as he claimed, from a stranger at the Milan train station wouldn't the lawyer demand it back?

What a coincidence that Rudy from Perugia on a trip to Milan ran into a stranger at the Milan train station selling property stolen from Perugia a week earlier.

Rudy must have had money when he was in Milan to be able, as he claimed, purchase a laptop and cell phone from a stranger at the Milan train station and then paid someone else EUR 50 to allow him to breaking ... er, I mean, admit him into the nursery school to sleep. Can't you get a cheap hotel room in Milan near the train station for EUR 50?

To quote Mignini: "poor Rudy".

I have never heard of a convicted murderer being so coddled by the prosecution as Rudy has been. However, on the other hand, I think that Guede will himself be murdered by the Italian police soon after he is released from jail, maybe even while out on work release. THere is no way he could maintain the fiction that Knox and Sollectio were involved under the avalanche of media scrutiny headed his way, and the Italian authorities involved ( who are of course lying bastards) cannot afford to have the truth come out.

 

[acbytesla]

I find it scary too, I alluded to this in another post where I tried to bring up (but thought better of it) how the vibe I get reminds me of the oppression I felt hanging in the air in the former soviet block counties I visited before the wall fell and like I imagine existed in other oppressive regimes (insert regime here_______________) of the past & current.

The hyper-sensitivity to slander & libel in Italy appears to have a silencing effect on those who might want to publicly oppose government officials, etc. Not because they fear extreme physical consequences, but the mere threat of being dragged into court and having to spend money to defend yourself, even when you're clearly innocent would make one think hard about what they say especially against those who work within the system and know how to work it to maximum effect at little cost to them except for their time (i.e. Mignini).

Now I guess people should think about what they say before they say it, but the idea of harsh consequences for any kind of speech is really foreign to me since I'm in the US. My last name was the object of ridicule growing up, I wonder if I could have made bank if I had grown up in Italy and sued all the little kiddies & their parents?

It's one thing to be sued by another party, it is totally another to have criminal charges directed at you. Italy has effectively put it's judges and police above criticism and above the law. I have no problem with civil laws against defamation of character, but the burden of proof needs to be with the plaintiff and the plaintiff needs to demonstrate actual damages, not just that their feelings were hurt.

Another good thing we have in the US is exceptions for public figures. That the defamation must show actual malice. Being wrong alone does not constitute actual defamation.

Unfortunately Italy is one of these countries that has "criminalized" defamation, where the penalties are up to three years for each offense.

 

[acbytesla]

I was just curious where you're getting the idea he apologized or if you are just assuming he did.

I save a lot of posts and sources for future reference in this case but I like to keep verifiable sources when possible, not speculation. So, I'm merely trying to clarify whether the apology was real or assumed.

thx

I remember reading that he did apologize yimyammer. But frankly, I forgot the source and who knows if that source was reliable.

 

[Grinder]

All the pictures I've seen show those doors did have shutters. Do you have photos at the time of the crime that shows differently?

I'm talking about these double doors in green on the balcony shown below:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_4023752a19e6a2e321.jpg[/qimg]

Thanks. Those doors look like they are above the surface of the balcony. It appears they aren't doors but something like a step through window.

Perhaps Mach good fill us in on how they work. A strange design to block out light going into the hallway from the outside. I could see a shade on the inside for privacy but on the outside seems odd. Do the doors open inward and then the shutter doors need to be opened?

 

[RandyN]

Yep - I've often wondered if she was saving herself the personal embarrassment of being revealed to the world as a slob.

LOL...me too.

Which I blame once again on the sub-par defense. Filomena droned on while on the stand for hours IIRC. I seem to recall the judge intervening and asking her to get to the frikin points several times...and yet no defense questions about the appearance of her room typically. Which could have been easily confirmed by AK and Laura M.

My bet...the girl was a slob...my evidence...look at the undisturbed mess on her table, under her table, on her shelves...etc. She was slob, no doubt in my mind...and the photographic evidence backs that up.

I'm "slightly" overweight and past my prime climbing days...50 plus...and 40 lbs over my ideal weight and I promise you I could get up that wall and into that window no problem. I dont sit behind a desk all day so I can still move...I can see how fat stupid people might find this "impossible". ;-) Hope I didn't offend anyone here because I never meant to.

 

[Grinder]

“video of the autopsy showed Dr. Lalli had in fact tied each end of the upper intestine, just as Umani Ronchi said he should have.”

Excerpt From: Sollecito, Raffaele. “Honor Bound: My Journey to Hell and Back with Amanda Knox.” Gallery Books, 2012-09-18T06:00:00+00:00.

Grinder, doubtless this ground has been covered already unbeknownst to me. Is Raffaele incorrect when he says that Dr. Lalli did tie off the intestines correctly?

First off I was just answering what the PGP would say. There has been dispute as to whether or not he did it properly. Chris has also commented that the 3 full hours from the meal was too long for nothing in the duodenum. I've pointed out that Lalli found the equivalent of a full drink in her system and if that was a residual of the previous night she would have been really sloshed and perhaps her system was not working well.

Her last meal was still in her stomach, some of the ingredients still indentifiable, probably in its entirety (it contained 0.5 litres, nearly a pint), so this is completely moot.

Exactly how much did she consume at dinner? I heard she ate .65 liters.

 

[Grinder]

Wouldn't the Perugian lawyer who owned the laptop want it back, especially if it had client notes, memos, documents, and other work product on it. Especially if he was defending someone in a criminal case where he would not want police - be they Perugian police or Milan police - to have his case file information?

When Rudy came to the law office in Perugia to apologize for having purchased the lawyer's stolen property a week after the burglary, as he claimed, from a stranger at the Milan train station wouldn't the lawyer demand it back?

Well I find it hard to believe that they catch people with stolen goods and tell them to return them forthwith. Now Italy is different but I have seen nothing that indicates he came to the lawyers' office and had the laptop.

One would imagine that the lawyer would password protect sensitive info and if so there is no way the police could get that data as that would be above their pay grade.

What a coincidence that Rudy from Perugia on a trip to Milan ran into a stranger at the Milan train station selling property stolen from Perugia a week earlier.

Rudy must have had money when he was in Milan to be able, as he claimed, purchase a laptop and cell phone from a stranger at the Milan train station and then paid someone else EUR 50 to allow him to break in ... er, I mean, admit him into the nursery school to sleep. Can't you get a cheap hotel room in Milan near the train station for EUR 50?

To quote Mignini: "poor Rudy".

Hard to believe a room couldn't be found for less.

 

[Grinder]

Here's part of Grinder's quote (what is the source of this quote Grinder?):

I was just curious where you're getting the idea he apologized or if you are just assuming he did.

The quote is from Massei. I believe the story is that he did apologize but didn't return the stolen goods.

 

[RandyN]

Thanks for the research. My experience with broken windows is that glass flies in both directions. Certainly at the edge of the hole glass fragments will drop down and some bounce outside.

Had they found a huge percentage outside that would have been a pointer to the rock coming from the inside. Now of course the kids could have broken it from the inside and then gone out and picked up the glass and moved it to the inside in just the right pattern.

Hummm not conclusive at all since the tests fail to match the evidence in this case in any way. That is single strength glass and a 9lb or so rock. The second link appears to have a sling type projectile which retracts on some sort of elastic connection. And since it does not travel thru the window then one might expect glass to be pulled back with it. Otherwise no glass will fall straight down...down and in yes...but not down and out.

I suppose thicker glass and a smaller projectile could allow some bending and springing back effect. Also not relevant in this case.

Some single strength glass may have rebounded off the inner shutter and fallen outside but that is not a factual certainty. Nor is it a expected and conclusive result. This would be something the police would need to show detailed evidence of. Instead we get unfounded non-scientific backed speculation...which is what I think Grinder is also presenting us with on this unimportant matter.

Our conclusions remain the same ...rock from outside. No doubt at all. 99.99999999% certainty. + 1% minus 0%

 

[Supernaut]

First off I was just answering what the PGP would say. There has been dispute as to whether or not he did it properly. Chris has also commented that the 3 full hours from the meal was too long for nothing in the duodenum. I've pointed out that Lalli found the equivalent of a full drink in her system and if that was a residual of the previous night she would have been really sloshed and perhaps her system was not working well..[/

She was, apparently, out until 5AM, so only 12-13 hours had elapsed before she was eating a light supper with her friends. They said that she didn't have much of an appetite, which would hardly be surprising if she had been drinking the way students and young people almost feel obliged to nowadays.

Assuming she had been on such a typical student bender, she could easily still have had alcohol in her blood (although there would also have been a tell-tale abundance of metabolites of alcohol - ketones and so on - I'd be willing to bet that measurements of these were made and are somewhere in the toxicology report).

And yes, I believe that stressing/abusing the digestive organs this way does
have the effect of slowing digestion down for the next day or so.

Exactly how much did she consume at dinner? I heard she ate .65 liters.

Yeh, very funny.

[ETA >> I recall hearing that Meredith had been part of group cautioned (in the UK) for being 'drunk and disorderly' or something similar.]

 

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by yimyammer View Post
I thought Rudy returned the stolen laptop?

Grinder
"Pretty sure the cops kept it."



Sadly this should be something duly recorded in a case file so that no guessing as to the matter need be made. If the cops have it...and they may well have then why does the defense or a PI not have that vital data? Cant be a state secret afaik.

Just another example of incompetent or corrupt work by all. Certainly incompetent of the defenses.

 

[Grinder]

She was, apparently, out until 5AM, so only 12-13 hours had elapsed before she was eating a light supper with her friends. They said that she didn't have much of an appetite, which would hardly be surprising if she had been drinking the way students and young people almost feel obliged to nowadays.

Well it would be more like 14 hours from her last drink. Aside - where does the 5 am time come from? Not a challenge as I too use it

Assuming she had been on such a typical student bender, she could easily still have had alcohol in her blood (although there would also have been a tell-tale abundance of metabolites of alcohol - ketones and so on - I'd be willing to bet that measurements of these were made and are somewhere in the toxicology report).

According to current science she would have had to be near death from alcohol poisoning to still have a full drink equivalent in her system at 9 or 10 pm.

And yes, I believe that stressing/abusing the digestive organs this way does
have the effect of slowing digestion down for the next day or so.

Yeh, very funny.

But three plus full hours still seems too long for the chyme to start moving.

Glad you enjoyed it.

 

[davefoc]

Hummm not conclusive at all since the tests fail to match the evidence in this case in any way. That is single strength glass and a 9lb or so rock. ...

In the US words are sometimes used to refer to glass thickness.
http://www.lakenormansupplyinc.com/thickness.html

Did you mean that the glass was single strength (a reference to its thickness) or single pane? A single pane window is made with a single layer of glass as opposed to a double pane window which is made with two layers of glass with some kind of gas filling the void between the two panes.

 

[Supernaut]

........

According to current science she would have had to be near death from alcohol poisoning to still have a full drink equivalent in her system at 9 or 10 pm.



......

That's off the top of your head, I assume?

People are regularly busted for drink driving 6 or more hours after finishing a bender.

That's here in the UK, which means they still have the equivalent of half a bottle of wine or more in their bloodstreams.

 

[Supernaut]

.......But three plus full hours still seems too long for the chyme to start moving.....

Whatever.

 

[RandyN]

Lalli made a mistake and didn't tie off the intestines properly. It really is an issue since the digestion should have started by 8 or 8:30.


Changed her mind. Too late for her mom. Who knows?



See Massei - just playing with phone.

I happen to believe the TOD was closer to 10 than 9. The 10:13 phone connection to me says she had been attacked.

OK this is getting ridiculous now. Please provide the citation that Lalli failed to prepare the digestive system properly. Anything else is just tabloid level speculation. Provide the data or retract the conclusion. You are beginning to argue like Mignini. And for the record he makes the dumbest wildest least logical statements and arguments of all. Sure you want to ride that horse with him?

You are free to speculate about TOD. But it is an unfounded guess that goes against most of the circumstantial evidence. The phone call at 10 PM is the least important bit of inconclusive data and is almost meaningless (since RG made it) compared to digestive data, MK phone habits, computer habits, remaining fully clothed inside her house habits, statements of RG, laundry habits (also weak evidence) etc...

You are just messing around I know...playing with the noobs perhaps...but you are muddying the water of something that is fairly clear. Whats next out you? Those icy eyes Knox happened to be born with?

 

[RandyN]

Ok, Merdith Kerscher arrived home at about 9:04 pm. Rudy Guede hiding in the toilet states she screamed very loudly at about 9:20 pm - a scream that he realized could have been heard by someone else.

Yep...so sure she could have gone downstairs first...(the keys to downstairs were found hanging upstairs btw) so it seems likely she entered her home and discovered RG inside and at some point screamed either before or during the time he was killing her...I'm guessing that as she ran away from him towards her room that she screamed while doing so. This caused an instant response from RG to chase down and silence her. Just a guess though...but an educated guess at least. This would explain the pants down story and un-flushed toilet and several other small evidences.