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How To Use Bitcoin – The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man

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Regarding withdrawals...

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21649594-Withdrawals-and-Deposits

FTFL said:
* Japanese Domestic Transfer - Only for Japanese bank account holders.
* Polish Domestic Transfer - Only for Polish bank account holders.
* International Wire Transfer - Please note that we are unable to accept funds coming from or going to any entity, state or country listed by the US OFAC (Office of Foreign Assets Control). If you wish to deposit from or withdraw to one of these countries, we are sorry but you can not do so through MtGox.
* SEPA - Only for European bank account holders
* Okpay - Only for deposits

Hmm. Can only get USD out via wire transfer. Messy, but workable.

FTFL said:
<Europe/SEPA Transfers (EUR) section>
* Withdrawals All withdrawals will be sent through the Mt. Gox Polish bank account and will involve a 1% fee with a minimum of 5.5 PLN

Please note the following rules :
- It is not possible to withdraw less than 10 EUR.
- Withdraws lower than 100.00 EUR are on average take less than a week.
- It takes at least a month on average for withdrawals larger than 10,000 EUR- Withdrawals greater than 50,000 EUR need to be split it into multiple transfers or you can use the International Wire payment method.
- Due to the volume of withdrawals requests, each customer is currently only allowed 1 withdrawal every 20 days (estimate) Situation as of 1st December 2013: We are currently processing withdrawals requested 3 weeks and 2 days ago. (Users with several withdrawals in the queue must take the 20 day rule above into account)

Looks like you can't turn BTC into Euro too easily. Three week mandatory delay PLUS three week delay, and the price is bouncing around like a ping-pong ball in the meantime.

FTFL said:
<International Wire Transfer section>
* Withdrawals
Wire transfers are currently taking more than 4 weeks to process due to the volume of withdrawal requests currently in the queue.
Withdrawals processed typically take 5 full business days to reach your bank, provided that you have included all required information such as your full name and address as it appears on your bank statement. Please therefore double check any details that you enter when requesting a withdrawal.

Additional fees may be charged by the receiving bank or an intermediate bank.

Four week delay for USD. :eek:

There's an awful lot of people playin' on air right now... and an AWFUL lot of people trying to get out and realize their recent gains. My, my, my.
 
I abbreviate your post to the incorrect conclusion for convenience.

MtGox customers have accounts like brokerage accounts, a currency side and a btc side. The limits apply to one or the other, not to trading.

It's not trading I was talking about, it's about getting money in and out. I can move as much as I want between my bank account and brokerage account on a daily basis. There is a three day settlement time on trades so funds to move from brokerage to bank are subject to exchange settlement procedures. If I sell $200k in stocks, I can move all the money out three days later.

What MtGox said in their statement is that they didn't have the funds to liquidate existing bitcoin accounts due to the ridiculous spike in price. The market isn't liquidating the trades at all, they are apparently sham trades. If MtGox can't sell your 10,000 bitcoin account for $10m today, there is no market and the trades are a sham. I suspect this whole thing is a sham.
 
Regarding withdrawals...

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21649594-Withdrawals-and-Deposits



Hmm. Can only get USD out via wire transfer. Messy, but workable.



Looks like you can't turn BTC into Euro too easily. Three week mandatory delay PLUS three week delay, and the price is bouncing around like a ping-pong ball in the meantime.



Four week delay for USD. :eek:

There's an awful lot of people playin' on air right now... and an AWFUL lot of people trying to get out and realize their recent gains. My, my, my.

Like I said, it's a sham. Worse, it's Hotel California for your money. Money can check in but it can't check out and while it's there it can only buy bitcoins or hulu or pizza.
 
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Yeah I saw that when I went back through this thread. That $100 would have turned into $10,000. "Tard"? "Stupid"?

Hmmm.

Actually, yes. Getting the money out seems to be very difficult. see the previous posts.
 
Like I said, it's a sham. Worse, it's Hotel California for your money. Money can check in but it can't check out and while it's there it can only buy bitcoins or hulu or pizza.

Or drugs or CP, be fair now.

MTGOX is the big-player exchange as I understand it, too. More reading indicates that they seem to do everything through a single Polish (:eye-poppi) bank... I'm a little puzzled as Poland is not historically a prime example of banking stability, but maybe they've sorted it all out recently and are a crown jewel.

Yeah, if I feel the need for a thrill of gambling, I think I'll stick with poker -- I can always cash my chips out there when I'm up. Be very interesting to see how this plays out as everyone tries to lock in their 1000% appreciation all at once. I wonder if that's why the trade volumes are on a downslope right now, too?
 
So the implication is that these big Bitcoin holders couldn't sell if they wanted to, because no buyer is stupid enough to put $10 million into an about-to-pop bubble. Got it.

I am sure there are some bitcoin lovers that might be that stupid but no one with $10m is going to because if you can't use 170BTC to buy this but $170,000 of your $10m would.............................

Maybe even a bitcoin lover isn't that stupid. [sarcasm] Let's see, 170 BTC or a nice Aston Martin DB-9, man, that is a hard choice now that I think about it.[/sarcasm]

The more it goes up, the less it's worth, that is hilarious but that is what MtGox is saying.
 
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I am sure there are some bitcoin lovers that might be that stupid but no one with $10m is going to because if you can't use 170BTC to buy this but $170,000 of your $10m would.............................

Maybe even a bitcoin lover isn't that stupid. [sarcasm] Let's see, 170 BTC or a nice Aston Martin DB-9, man, that is a hard choice now that I think about it.[/sarcasm]

The more it goes up, the less it's worth, that is hilarious but that is what MtGox is saying.
I'm thinking I'm going to agree with you. Those are all problems. Be glad that you don't have them. No worries, be happy.

:shocked:
 
There is nothing wrong in hanging on to them if they aren't a primary currency, otherwise there is a lot wrong with it. That is what produces deflation.

Deflation = productivity gains accruing to savers and investors, the real people who drive the real economy.

Inflation = productivity gains being stolen by money issuers and politicians.

I think the real problem with money and why people hoard it is because of the supposed scarcity of it. Everyone seems to think if you print a lot of money it will devalue it. To a degree that is true but why to people accept money in the first place? They believe it will motivate someone else to give them something that person has.

Creating new money, whether it's by a central bank, or a counterfeiter in his basement, is nothing more than a method of stealing real wealth. This is absolutely true, all of the time, in all circumstances. I don't think anyone but you pretends that Federal Reserve Notes are scarce, and most everyone but you understands that value is, at least in part, a function of scarcity.

In life we have been conditioned to believe that no one will do anything for us or give us anything if we don't pay something (money) for it.

Was this supposed to be profound? It's a roundabout way of saying "In life, we have been conditioned to believe that nobody wants us to steal from them."

Nothing is further from true. Each and every one of us was brought into this world by another person. The mother who carried us around for nine months paid a significant physical price for us to be born. Then for 18-25 years continued to feed, clothe and nurture us until we were able to operate on our own. That is all done gratis. A child can never repay a parent for what they gave them. All they can do is become a parent in return if there is any way to repay that effort.

I, and everyone else am not your mother. Don't steal from me.

The notion that only money can bring people the things they need is a false one but it's one that people are stuck on, now more than ever. Bitcoin isn't money because the govt doesn't say it is and unless the govt says bitcoin is money, it won't be. In the meantime, it seems to have become a speculative darling. I don't understand it at all but since the money chasing it doesn't really exist either, it's not all that surprising. Money doesn't buy you anything unless you spend it.

I have to agree. There is a lot you don't understand.
 
Deflation = productivity gains accruing to savers and investors, the real people who drive the real economy.

Inflation = productivity gains being stolen by money issuers and politicians.

Deflation occurs due to productivity gains and to a shortage of money to fully liquidate the value of goods and services in society. When productivity gains occur, they allow more to be produced and thus more people to be born. In aggregate, this increases the value of goods and services in the economy. As a consequence, the amount of money needed to liquidate those goods and services at the same velocity must then rise. If a velocity increase in turnover is required, it forces everyone to buy and sell faster than the natural flow would dictate. This stresses the system if it can't accommodate the higher velocity and of course failures occur.

Inflation occurs when the money supply is increased beyond the supply needed to liquidate the value of goods and services in the economy at the natural rate. Prices can rise if there is a lack of productivity in key goods that drive the general price level. That is not precisely a problem of inflation.

Your model is incomplete and I have seen it far too often on the internet propounded by hard money advocates. I was one once so I recognize the statements.



Creating new money, whether it's by a central bank, or a counterfeiter in his basement, is nothing more than a method of stealing real wealth. This is absolutely true, all of the time, in all circumstances. I don't think anyone but you pretends that Federal Reserve Notes are scarce, and most everyone but you understands that value is, at least in part, a function of scarcity.

Stealing is taking that which does not belong to you. If you exchange your goods and services for money, it really doesn't matter if it's real or fake as long as you can pass it along. In the case of the counterfeit that is more likely to be the case that it fails to pass than with the Fed creating credit to back a debt. As to FRN's being scarce, they most certainly are compared to the amount of money claimed to be on deposit in the commercial banks that are members of the Fed System. The Fed is not stupid, those babies are an obligation to him. The deposits at the banks are their problem.

Was this supposed to be profound?

No but it still went right over your head..............
 
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Deflation = productivity gains accruing to savers and investors, the real people who drive the real economy.

Inflation = productivity gains being stolen by money issuers and politicians.....

.....I have to agree. There is a lot you don't understand.

But to be completely fair, he has said he's here to learn....
 
Regarding withdrawals...

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21649594-Withdrawals-and-Deposits




Four week delay for USD. :eek:

There's an awful lot of people playin' on air right now... and an AWFUL lot of people trying to get out and realize their recent gains. My, my, my.

I hadn't noticed this even though you bolded it:

Due to the volume of withdrawals requests, each customer is currently only allowed 1 withdrawal every 20 days (estimate)

Situation as of 1st December 2013: We are currently processing withdrawals requested 3 weeks and 2 days ago. (Users with several withdrawals in the queue must take the 20 day rule above into account)


So the withdrawal request on Dec 1 was for Nov 8 and bitcoin was priced at $350. Can you imagine the volume of withdrawal since then? Wow, this is insane. So when I look at MtGox and I see 1000 bitcoins sold at $1200 which is $1.2m, no real money ever changes hands and so that transaction is a sham, it's a lie. No one can buy $1200 worth of real goods with one of those bitcoins and no one can get $1200 today for the bitcoin. So this is basically a fraud and the bitcoin lovers are dupes.

I have added a chart showing what I believe to be fraudulent transactions based on the information obtained from MtGox's own site. On the stock market these would be real money transfers for shares sold but not here. The money from the transactions doesn't appear in any account, it's just bitcoins changing hands at a purported $ value which doesn't require liquidation at that price.
 

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Deflation occurs due to productivity gains and to a shortage of money to fully liquidate the value of goods and services in society. When productivity gains occur, they allow more to be produced and thus more people to be born. In aggregate, this increases the value of goods and services in the economy. As a consequence, the amount of money needed to liquidate those goods and services at the same velocity must then rise. If a velocity increase in turnover is required, it forces everyone to buy and sell faster than the natural flow would dictate. This stresses the system if it can't accommodate the higher velocity and of course failures occur.

Gibberish. Productivity gains don't result in a shortage of money, they result in money being re-priced upwards as it buys more. Regardless, ex-nihilo money creation results in either a regressive tax (best case) or outright theft (worst).

Inflation occurs when the money supply is increased beyond the supply needed to liquidate the value of goods and services in the economy at the natural rate. Prices can rise if there is a lack of productivity in key goods that drive the general price level. That is not precisely a problem of inflation.

Inflation is simply the expansion of the money supply by creating money ex-nihilo. Whether it offsets productivity gains or not, it represents taxation or theft.

Your model is incomplete and I have seen it far too often on the internet propounded by hard money advocates. I was one once so I recognize the statements.

It's quite complete, and once you recognize that all criticisms of it are merely an attempt to justify outright theft, then the bogus rationalizations for why we need central banks at all simply disappear. There is no need for anyone to manipulate the money supply for their own interests, or under the presumption of stabilizing nominal prices, we can simply allow the market to re-value money itself. This would be far less regressive, and far less socially and economically destabilizing than the status quo.

Stealing is taking that which does not belong to you. If you exchange your goods and services for money, it really doesn't matter if it's real or fake as long as you can pass it along.

So you're essentially claiming that the crime of counterfeiting really isn't a crime at all, and has no victims. This is a laughable assertion. In fact, if counterfeit money is exchanged for real goods and services and then it is recognized when the vendor makes a bank deposit, the bank will deduct that amount from the vendor's deposit and (presumably) destroy the money, and the effect is as if the counterfeiter stole directly from the vendor.

If, on the other hand, the counterfeits were undetectable, or perhaps they were merely more of the same as issued by the Federal Reserve System and the notes are passed along, then the thief has instead stolen purchasing power from every single saver and person in possession of Federal Reserve Notes around the world, because he has simultaneously increased the supply of them (or something resembling them), as well as reduced the supply of scarce goods, services, or assets available to everyone else. The burden of the victims is expressed in the price level in the form of higher prices than they would otherwise have to pay, both for goods and services, and for assets, including financial, real estate, and other assets.
 
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So the withdrawal request on Dec 1 was for Nov 8 and bitcoin was priced at $350. Can you imagine the volume of withdrawal since then? Wow, this is insane. So when I look at MtGox and I see 1000 bitcoins sold at $1200 which is $1.2m, no real money ever changes hands and so that transaction is a sham, it's a lie. No one can buy $1200 worth of real goods with one of those bitcoins and no one can get $1200 today for the bitcoin. So this is basically a fraud and the bitcoin lovers are dupes.

How can such a system even maintain itself ?
 
Inflation is simply the expansion of the money supply by creating money ex-nihilo. Whether it offsets productivity gains or not, it represents taxation or theft.

Anyone who equates inflation with theft has so little understanding of economy that it's worthless to have a discussion with them.

Bye.
 
Anyone who equates inflation with theft has so little understanding of economy that it's worthless to have a discussion with them.

Bye.

In case you hadn't noticed, up until now I was mostly ignoring you, and there wasn't any discussion. This is for a very specific reason which, if I elaborated on, a moderator would undoubtedly censor me. Cheerio!
 
So when I look at MtGox and I see 1000 bitcoins sold at $1200 which is $1.2m, no real money ever changes hands and so that transaction is a sham, it's a lie.

In that sense, no real money ever changes hands when I pay with my debit card for groceries. It's just numbers moving around.

And you do realize MtGox is just one marketplace? Their inadequacy to meet the withdrawal demand is more an issue with MtGox than indicative of anything about bitcoin.

If you are concerned about withdrawals, there's plenty of providers that can cater for your particular needs. For example kraken.com is good for SEPA deposits/withdrawals, with 20 000 USD daily limit.
 
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