Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

Instead they don't even try her phones again once at the cottage.

Instead, they called the police. Perhaps because the last attempt to call Meredith went straight to voicemail.

 

[yimyammer]

What is the word for closed? What is the word for locked?

good questions, I was wondering the same thing. In particular whether Amanda meant to say closed instead of locked (not saying you were wondering the same)

 

[Kaosium]

I thought that there were other profiles on the clasp that were never identified.

Like with Raffaele's, one would need the profiles of other possible contributors before they could identify them as a possible contributor. The only profile on that clasp that could be devined without that is Meredith's.

 

[Grinder]

good questions, I was wondering the same thing. In particular whether Amanda meant to say closed instead of locked (not saying you were wondering the same)

Well yes I meant exactly what you were thinking.

Frankly this means nothing to me unless it can be explained why she would even want to lie about it. If she were trying to get the door opened why not say it was unusual to be locked. Now, if the discussion had been about her never closing the door that would be different.

I've always wondered how F could be so sure and should have been asked if she tried everyone's doors when they were gone.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The door to Meredith's room was locked when Raf said he gave the door a try. We have no idea how many times the door knob was touched from that time until the rediscovery of the bra clasp.

It is very likely that Raf's DNA was on other items in Amanda's room and on towels like the ones Rudy used to try to save Meredith. It is also possible that Meredith put the DNA on it herself after drying her hands on the same towel Raf used in the bath or the kitchen.

I thought that there were other profiles on the clasp that were never identified.

Yes, there were. It is impossible to know what happened given the conditions under which this so-called evidence was collected.

This impasse is permanent.

It is the job of police to handle evidence properly and thereby prevent contamination, if they want to develop evidence that will hold up in a fair court as opposed to a kangaroo court.

It is not the job of a defense lawyer to establish a specific, likely source of contamination at a crime scene that has been trashed. This would be a ridiculous standard. In this case, it would involve tracing the spread of grime as a tribe of proto-hominids turned an orderly household into piles of rubble. It would also involve proving a negative, i.e., proving that one of these brutes did not intentionally contaminate the evidence to come up with just what was needed.

But, the Italian court system has ruled that this is indeed the standard they will apply. Internet cultists are happy to agree. No one will ever change their minds.

 

[Briars]

The door to Meredith's room was locked when Raf said he gave the door a try. We have no idea how many times the door knob was touched from that time until the rediscovery of the bra clasp.

It is very likely that Raf's DNA was on other items in Amanda's room and on towels like the ones Rudy used to try to save Meredith. It is also possible that Meredith put the DNA on it herself after drying her hands on the same towel Raf used in the bath or the kitchen.

I thought that there were other profiles on the clasp that were never identified.

I believe the door was left in the position wide open after the discovery, No one was touching the handle. I bet the bloody towels were collected early on,they were soaked I don't see people using the same gloves after handling the bloody towels. As well a hand towel if it could have DNA probably would have a mix. The thinking that RS could dry his hands on a towel and get DNA on a spot is possible, but to imagine that towel soaked in blood would somehow be touched in the exact DNA spot and that bloody tranfer would some how end up on the tip of her glove . That is as plausible as the cop kicking the clasp over a spot of his DNA on the floor.

 

[Grinder]

It is the job of police to handle evidence properly and thereby prevent contamination, if they want to develop evidence that will hold up in a fair court as opposed to a kangaroo court.

While I agree I can imagine situations where every protocol is not followed and the evidence still would be good. A person finding a knife in Chris' gutter drain and taking it to the police without handling it all properly would still be good evidence if DNA of the murderer and the victim were found by a proper lab.

It is not the job of a defense lawyer to establish a specific, likely source of contamination at a crime scene that has been trashed. This would be a ridiculous standard. In this case, it would involve tracing the spread of grime as a tribe of proto-hominids turned an orderly household into piles of rubble. It would also involve proving a negative, i.e., proving that one of these brutes did not intentionally contaminate the evidence to come up with just what was needed.

Agreed and at this level of quantity of sample even handled properly there are many other ways it could have ended up there. Now if they had found Raf's DNA on her sweater, jacket and the other part of the bra then I'd add the clasp to list.

But, the Italian court system has ruled that this is indeed the standard they will apply. Internet cultists are happy to agree. No one will ever change their minds.

As I said earlier Italians really may have different DNA in their genes. They seem to think and Mach has confirmed several compatibles equals a match.

 

[Briars]

I don't understand what you mean.



How would anybody know that they had or hadn't seen the purse?

Since the PP didn't break the door down or suggest that Raf do it, doesn't that make the scene less desperate than you make it to be. Remember, the PP had the missing phones in addition to the scene at the cottage, yet didn't do anything until Filomena arrived.

There was only a couple of drops of blood initially noticed.

As I said earlier if the opinions on the frequency of the door being locked were reversed I'm sure you would still argue it pointed to guilt.

What is the word for closed? What is the word for locked?

You asked me why -Amanda would say locking her door was not unusual, I gave you my reason. That is there was no reason to be too concerned when she showered or when she wandered around with RS and they found the door locked because she was in the habit of doing that. RS said he looked though the key hole and saw her purse on the bed in Honor Bound. I would have tried the phones again what if she had been using them before or they weren't charged. Never check at the cottage even when you see the purse come on.

 

[yimyammer]

Well yes I meant exactly what you were thinking.

Frankly this means nothing to me unless it can be explained why she would even want to lie about it. If she were trying to get the door opened why not say it was unusual to be locked. Now, if the discussion had been about her never closing the door that would be different.

I've always wondered how F could be so sure and should have been asked if she tried everyone's doors when they were gone.

ditto

 

[Grinder]

You asked me why -Amanda would say locking her door was not unusual, I gave you my reason. That is there was no reason to be too concerned when she showered or when she wandered around with RS and they found the door locked because she was in the habit of doing that. RS said he looked though the key hole and saw her purse on the bed in Honor Bound. I would have tried the phones again what if she had been using them before or they weren't charged. Never check at the cottage even when you see the purse come on.

She was concerned. Do you think that if Meredith usually didn't lock the door that it would reasonable for her to lock it with her rent cash in there and no neighbors downstairs?

You seem to be combining disparate things in your assertion. Why would the seeing of a purse make them want to break in? She had other purses and if they were the murderers why would they admit to looking through the key hole which they wouldn't have done if they were the murders?

They had knocked on the door. Raf had even given it a try. You think that Meredith would hear a phone but not all the other noise they were making? Come on!

Why would they set up the situation such that it would require a lie about the door that Filomena would ferret out immediately?

Recently you seemed to accept a 10:15 TOD and just hand waved away the ear witnesses and the entire timeline of the prosecution.

Could you give us a timeline and could translate Curatolo's testimony.

My read is that he clearly says he saw them when he arrived around 9:30 and that every time he looked up they were there until just before midnight.

Massei adjusted the time to 11 because he relied on the disco buses leaving by then and Curatolo saying the buses were there when he left, but there were no disco buses that night.

The car and the tow truck were there from about 10:30 to 11:15. You think the 10:30 sighting might well be Rudy.

I just don't see how you can find a way to fit all that together and have the kids do the crime.

 

[Briars]

She was concerned. Do you think that if Meredith usually didn't lock the door that it would reasonable for her to lock it with her rent cash in there and no neighbors downstairs?

You seem to be combining disparate things in your assertion. Why would the seeing of a purse make them want to break in? She had other purses and if they were the murderers why would they admit to looking through the key hole which they wouldn't have done if they were the murders?

They had knocked on the door. Raf had even given it a try. You think that Meredith would hear a phone but not all the other noise they were making? Come on!

Why would they set up the situation such that it would require a lie about the door that Filomena would ferret out immediately?

Recently you seemed to accept a 10:15 TOD and just hand waved away the ear witnesses and the entire timeline of the prosecution.

Could you give us a timeline and could translate Curatolo's testimony.

My read is that he clearly says he saw them when he arrived around 9:30 and that every time he looked up they were there until just before midnight.

Massei adjusted the time to 11 because he relied on the disco buses leaving by then and Curatolo saying the buses were there when he left, but there were no disco buses that night.

The car and the tow truck were there from about 10:30 to 11:15. You think the 10:30 sighting might well be Rudy.

I just don't see how you can find a way to fit all that together and have the kids do the crime.

They should have been very concerned with the break in blood and locked door. Amanda in one account wrote she pounded on the door screaming her name. The peek into the keyhole was morbid curiosity by raff to see what might be seen on the floor. There is no excuse for not calling again or successfully breaking down the flimsy door. The front door was open the window smashed no Meredith , her purse on the bed blood etc. MY TOD does work with the sleepy women not sure of the time. It works with Formica and maybe even Kokomani.
Curatolo was reading did he look up 2 or 3 times? that would be hard for him to remember. I find it amazing the slack given to the accused for their improving and changing memory here. One example out of dozens Amanda initially cannot identify the woman who slapped her she recalls many people in the room but there were only three. Just in time for her book she not only remembers who it was but now this woman actually says I'm sorry I slapped you on the stairs. Like the phantom emails RS sent the story continues to evolve as they try to spin the loose and untidy ends.






P

 

[kwill]

Could you give us a timeline

Pretty please?

Also a description of the crime and/or cleanup that accounts for the evidence and the lack of evidence.

Don't even worry about motive, which is a whole other thing . . . just a timeline and a description of what happened that makes sense.

 

[Bill Williams]

They should have been very concerned with the break in blood and locked door. Amanda in one account wrote she pounded on the door screaming her name. The peek into the keyhole was morbid curiosity by raff to see what might be seen on the floor. There is no excuse for not calling again or successfully breaking down the flimsy door. The front door was open the window smashed no Meredith , her purse on the bed blood etc. MY TOD does work with the sleepy women not sure of the time. It works with Formica and maybe even Kokomani.

Then you also must suspect the postal police of this crime, too. They saw the very same things and were not suspicious that what all this was, was a murder. They simply refused to knock the door in, presumably assuming that everyone was overreacting. Why do you not suspect Battistelli of being involved using the criteria you aim at Knox and Sollecito?

You see this is the very problem Briars, of not being able to provide for a theory of this crime, and/or a time line which fits the evidence.

And why is Machiavelli not here spouting this nonsense?

 

[Kestrel]

One example out of dozens Amanda initially cannot identify the woman who slapped her she recalls many people in the room but there were only three.

Amanda described the woman who slapped her as "a policewoman with long chestnut brown hair" but did not know the officer's name. In classic PGP fashion, this has been spun into the lie that Amanda could not identify the woman.

 

[Bill Williams]

Stefanoni herself said under oath, during cross examination, that she could not rule out that she'd touched the bra-hook with her obviously dirty glove. She said this while being shown her own Scientific Police video, the problem being that the angle of the camera did not allow confirmation that she'd actually touched it.

So Bongiorno asked her directly. Stefanoni could neither confirm nor deny that she'd touched it.

I therefore do not know what would count for you as a "plausible route"?

A plausible source for the DNA , Mach said the room was open so guess the door handle is out, Besides it was a clean profile which wasn't found , even the processed cigarette butt was a mixed one.

Mach? When Mach tried to answer this he made no sense whatsoever. I've never seen such dietrology. Mach went on to, correctly, say that Stefanoni testified that she'd changed her gloves - but Mach left it strangely silent that if she'd changed gloves, she'd obviously changed back into dirty gloves!

I guess there was the same sort of budget constraints as in not taping the interrogation, as neither you nor Machiavelli have responded to either... Mignini told a whopper about that one! You and Mach default to the legality of taping interrogations, all the while ignoring that Mignini is already on the record as to why it didn't happen, and he lied.

But aside from you quoting Mach, your sentence actually makes no sense, much less addresses Stefanoni's own testimony that the contamination route is there for all to see... on their very video!

 

[Dan O.]

I believe the door was left in the position wide open after the discovery

So you've finally looked at Barbie's photo. But that's a whole week from the evening of the 7th till the morning of the 14th that the door was wide open and unattended. Are you sure that is what you believe?

 

[Kaosium]

They should have been very concerned with the break in blood and locked door. Amanda in one account wrote she pounded on the door screaming her name. The peek into the keyhole was morbid curiosity by raff to see what might be seen on the floor. There is no excuse for not calling again or successfully breaking down the flimsy door. The front door was open the window smashed no Meredith , her purse on the bed blood etc.

Why do you suppose the postal police refused to break down the door when they arrived?

Why isn't calling the police an acceptable substitute for breaking the door down or calling Meredith's numbers again?

MY TOD does work with the sleepy women not sure of the time. It works with Formica and maybe even Kokomani.

What is your time of death?

Curatolo was reading did he look up 2 or 3 times? that would be hard for him to remember. I find it amazing the slack given to the accused for their improving and changing memory here. One example out of dozens Amanda initially cannot identify the woman who slapped her she recalls many people in the room but there were only three. Just in time for her book she not only remembers who it was but now this woman actually says I'm sorry I slapped you on the stairs. Like the phantom emails RS sent the story continues to evolve as they try to spin the loose and untidy ends.

Do you take Curatolo seriously? Forget for a moment that he's a homeless drug-addicted bum peddling heroin on the side for which the Perugian police have evidence of him doing whilst he testified in three murder trials. Forget also that he's uncertain where he's living (prison BTW) when he testifies again and doesn't know if he's been convicted of anything.

This guy comes forward months later (was it eight?) and claims he remembers that he saw two people at a distance on a particular night, while associating those memories with conditions that happened an entirely different night! How can anyone take that 'memory' of his seriously, even if they ignore all the other indications he's nutty as a fruitcake and (for whatever reason) often ends up testifying in murder cases?

 

[Briars]

Amanda described the woman who slapped her as "a policewoman with long chestnut brown hair" but did not know the officer's name. In classic PGP fashion, this has been spun into the lie that Amanda could not identify the woman.

There was a lot of confusion was she denied food and water and mistreated it appears that has been pushed by supporters ,Donnino said she was not hit and I have no reason to believe her capable of making up things unlike Amanda. I don't believe this officer told her on the stairs I am sorry for hitting you,a new memory for the book . That one is quite funny , was it said in Italian to the girl who claimed she understood very little. Sounds like she made the silly comment up in a childlike way to give weight to her claim.

 

[Grinder]

They should have been very concerned with the break in blood and locked door. Amanda in one account wrote she pounded on the door screaming her name.

And the police with the additional knowledge that the missing girls phones had been tossed didn't immediately clear the cottage and enter the locked room which could have had the perp inside. The kids showed them the blood and broken into room. Why didn't these trained policemen knock the door down?

The peek into the keyhole was morbid curiosity by raff to see what might be seen on the floor. There is no excuse for not calling again or successfully breaking down the flimsy door.

They did call her name and knock on the door, which wasn't that flimsy. I'm not clear why you are so focused on the key hole. Why do you think that he has admitted this " morbid" act? If they were innocent, it seems a very reasonable thing to do. Using your general logic that would prove they are innocent.

The front door was open the window smashed no Meredith , her purse on the bed blood etc.

Okay there was a purse on the bed. How many purses did she have? Most women have a few and students often just throw their wallet and keys in a back pack.

MY TOD does work with the sleepy women not sure of the time. It works with Formica and maybe even Kokomani.
Curatolo was reading did he look up 2 or 3 times? that would be hard for him to remember.

You are changing the prosecution's time and moving it to close to Nara's bedtime. You must admit that if you can just move the ear witness times around they are not worth anything. Curatolo's testimony as I read it makes it clear that he saw them several times and never stated that he looked up and they weren't there. Though impossible to prove now, most smokers would have more than 3 cigarettes over 2 plus hours but even three smokes would have him seeing them every 40 minutes. Also, I doubt he only looked up when smoking but that's just my opinion.

I find it amazing the slack given to the accused for their improving and changing memory here. One example out of dozens Amanda initially cannot identify the woman who slapped her she recalls many people in the room but there were only three. Just in time for her book she not only remembers who it was but now this woman actually says I'm sorry I slapped you on the stairs. Like the phantom emails RS sent the story continues to evolve as they try to spin the loose and untidy ends.

How do you know there were only three in the room? Have you seen the video recording?

When the interrogators filed suit against her there were 12 names listed. Some sued some didn't. There definitely were more than 3 involved during that interrogation.

I have no inside info but I don't see why her now coming up with the name is the least bit incriminating or suspicious. Perhaps her attorneys advised her that it was not a good idea to give the name because calunnia or other considerations. I also don't understand why the 12:47 call in the afternoon to her mother was in any way suspicious. Why would she lie about it? She would know that it would be tracked on both ends. Cell calls used to listed on every bill and I still can look them up online.

The Raf email story is a little strange. I have no idea of the detail. It as if the book was written for him and he was too busy to read it. As Mach has pointed out he isn't very bright and can't even speak Italian that well. Both of them seem like space cases.

 

[Briars]

Oh I believe him unlike a couple of defendants who continue to lie. He testified and helped in a couple other cases. Actually helped in a productive way, Living outside and being available has its merits apparently.