Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Samson]

Yet they taped several of the interviewees, even with no legal or proceedural requirement to do so. This has been discussed many times.

They were in a room that was designed for taping interviewees. This has been discussed many times.

The cost and difficulty of taping the interview would have been minimal. This has been discussed many times.

I have yet to see an attempt to reconcile the interviewed as witnesses claim with this Follain report.

John Follain Perugia and Dipesh Gadher

Published: 4 November 2007 (Sunday Times)

POLICE investigating the murder of Meredith Kercher, the British exchange student who had her throat cut in Italy, believe that she new her killer and were focusing their inquiries on a "narrow" field of suspects. As Kercher's father prepared to fly out to the medieval Umbrian city of Perugia, detectives continued to search for a murder weapon, which they believe to be a knife or possibly a shard of broken glass.

The 21-year-old's semi-naked body was found in her bedroom on Friday after police were called to her home by her flatmates. Police were yesterday trying to trace Kercher's "occasional" Italian boyfriend, but they have not ruled out the possibility that her killer was a woman.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/article74799.ece

Now it is clear that the goal posts are highly mobile, but this is at the core of the case, and must be addressed by the prosecution so the rest of the world understands this disgraceful obfuscation.

ETA turns out to be slightly crossed post, but adds the cite.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Australia

wrong the SC said claiming contamination is not enough.

The CSC has views on DNA contamination that contradict the facts and science of DNA forensics, and the CSC has chosen to ignore the experience of nations such as Australia. Link.

 

[davefoc]

Not sure how that helps RS .He made the call and reported a break-in,He then said there was no theft when the responder assumed that was why someone broke in and tossed things about.

You seem to have either told an outright lie about this or you made a mistake. Your failure to acknowledge an obvious mistake suggests the possibility that you are making intentional misrepresentations of fact in this thread (lying). If there is any value in your posts it is that they represent an honest viewpoint supported with an honest representation of the facts as you see them. Your behavior with respect to this issue suggests that your posts don't meet this standard.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

known routes of contamination

A plausible route of contamination will need to be shown to the court for them to make a mental note and toss it out . There is no plausible contamination route yet and ditto for the clasp.

Several plausible routes have been discussed in these threads on more than one occasion. But that is not the most fundamental problem with the position that the CSC has taken. I can only think of one case where a likely route of DNA contamination was determined. The majority of cases of contamination with which I am familiar do not have known routes, and I am not sure that they qualify as even having likely routes.

 

[Strozzi]

There have been some heated discussions here in the last few hours. Please allow me to try to encourage a more tranquil discussion here by asking Briars to comment on the issues that I raise, below.

Briars, I believe that Stefanoni is very much as "team player" supporting the Perugia police and prosecution and that she 1) falsified analysis of the matter (DNA) collected on the knife blade and that she 2) planted Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.

My reasons are as follows:

In analyzing the knife from Raffaele's kitchen, Stefanoni located a minute sample of matter on the knife blade which she amplified (falsely enhanced - too low, too low) to generate a data result that she then falsely claims matches Meredith's DNA. Wouldn't you know it, she can't produce the proper machine records for the entire process and - oh gosh - all the material she tested was unfortunately consumed in the test so her test cannot be repeated (a scientific requirement for validity).

I also believe Stefanoni planted Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp by wiping the clasp hook with an item that contained Raffaele's DNA. My reason for believing this as follows:
1) By mid-December the police and prosecution knew that their very public claim that the bloody shoeprints matched Raffaele's shoe was about to be exposed by the Sollecito family as false. That was the only physical evidence the police claimed to have connecting Raffaele to the crime scene. Police needed to counter that and needed something sensational to connect Raffaele to the crime scene.
2) Stefanoni and her staff travelled from Rome to Perugia for the purpose of collecting the bra clasp on Dec 18.
3) Stefanoni mobilized her team of technicians including camera and lighting staff to assist her collect the clasp. She held the clasp up triumphantly for the camera, turned it over, fingered it with her visibly-dirty glove, and then placed it on the floor in front of her to photograph it in situ to pretend that that was where it was.
4) I do not believe Stefanoni did all that to collect the bra clasp and then took it back to her lab in Rome to test for Raffaele's DNA on the off-chance that it - might, just might - have Raffaele's DNA on it. I believe she wiped the bra clasp with an item that contained Raffaele's DNA. I think she planted false DNA evidence.

Briars, do you think there is any merit to the above?

 

[Grinder]

I wasn't there, so am reluctant to comment on the demeanour of Sollecito and Knox. When I first got interested in the case was as with most people in the initial news reports.

I was suspicious of Amanda because

1) Accusing an innocent man
2) Admitting to being there
3) Kiss with Sollecito outside the house where Meredith was murdered

Thanks Toto

To me the kissing wasn't at all suspicious and the police shouldn't have made anything out of it.

One and two are both from the interrogation, which I never believed because of the comments of the police chief and the weirdness of the statement.

These impressions were not helped by further revelations that Sollecito had knife collection, had violent comics and that Amanda used a profanity when describing how Meredith was killed.

Once again for me, the profanity meant nothing. The knife and comics I can see being a factor for the police. However, for me the "nothing was stolen" would be more of suspicious lead to follow.

Assuming Amanda Knox is innocent I still wish she hadn't blurted that sentence out (according to her: "she got her *********** throat slit"). The rest I don't think is now indicative of guilt, and her outburst not really proof of anything except inappropriate behaviour.

Agreed. Both of them have recognized that their behaviors weren't the best and attracted the PLE's attention.

 

[Grinder]

grinder I'm not convinced think long hallway in an apartment of condo building you can hear the lock turn even if you are around the corner hear the elevator. I think that sound would carry in the tiled cottage. Amanda saying that she often locked the door was the more important observation of the two.
Thanks for the vote of confidance on my Italian that business was rather annoying.

Well were they on the same schedule? You seem to be into sounds, dogs barking and all .

If Amanda had said she never locks her door and Filomena said the opposite, you'd claim that was an indication Amanda was lying and guilty.

Ask yourself why Amanda would lie about the locking. She under PGP scenarios wanted to "control" the investigation. Are you thinking she wanted to talk the PP into leaving and wait for the Carabinieri to show up?

 

[Grinder]

A black man ran up the steps in a hurry knocked into her and didn't say anything, That stairwell would have been used primarily by people leaving the car park at that time of night. I think it was him , He ran by her so her look at him would be brief.

I too believe it could have been him. Sure fits with him killing Meredith and eventually running away. It makes Nara's testimony even more questionable.

 

[Grinder]

What MIgnini said they followed proper procedure taping not needed during witness stage . Change over to suspect halted the questioning and the signed statement was made in the morning as a suspect.

What about the 5:45 session?

Yes those animations are expensive but worth it. There is no indication there is a tape that is the lore of a blogger who switched sides. Speaking about money I said here before the trial Amanda should have paid her debt to Patrick , now it appears others think that is a big deal too.

What in world are the animations worth? Can you possibly believe it is worth more than a recording of Amanda that night?

 

[Grinder]

Evidence of these opinion polls?

He likes to make stuff up so that he can be called out and be the poster child for "People Make Mistakes"

 

[Grinder]

C'mon. You know this isn't true. Amanda's dna on the knife has literally no probative value without Meredith's dna also being there. .... unless Amanda was being charged with using a knife in the commission of a culinary felony!
The way I understand the RIS tests, they tried to repeat the test that originally 'indicated' Meredith's dna and thus carried out the second part of the process that international standards agree is necessary to provide a positive lcn finding. Thus we can say that it's probable that if Stefanoni had followed this process, then having been unable to repeat the replicate the original finding she would have had to report that there was no positive finding of Meredith's dna on the knife. The probability that Meredith's dna was at that point on the knife has decreased.
Without evidence of Meredith's dna on the knife there simply is no reason at all to think that the knife could be the murder weapon.

Thoughtful AKA Leila Schneps wrote that a second non-repeatable test would be the same as testing one sample twice - or at least I think she was the one.

Clearly the test ordered by ISC if it came out Meredith would have sealed the deal. But it didn't and Amanda's being there is meaningless.

 

[Grinder]

He shoots! He scores!!!

Curious, do you actually read the link or just believe the implication of what it will say.

(IF HEARD OR READ) Knox was found not guilty of the charges but an appeals court has thrown out that verdict and ordered a new trial. Would you say your feelings toward Knox are sympathetic or unsympathetic? Would you say your feelings are very sympathetic/unsympathetic, or somewhat?
---- Sympathetic ---- --- Unsympathetic --- No
NET Very Somewhat NET Somewhat Very opinion

They didn't even ask about guilt or innocence.
Tesla -What I really find is interesting is how opinions have changed in the UK. There was a time when most of the US was against Amanda and pretty much all of the UK, Italy and the rest of the world. Then in the US that opinion began to change and say maybe 90 percent of America believes Amanda to be innocent. But the UK used to be solidly against her as was Italy. Now it seems, that even two thirds of the Brits thinks she is innocent.

Meow!

 

[Grinder]

wrong the SC said claiming contamination is not enough.

What do you think about chain of custody requirements?

 

[Grinder]

I seem to recall a headline in an Italian paper on 5 November that said words to the effect, "Meredith knew her killers." There is also Castellini's article, which indicates that Amanda and Raffaele were suspects prior to their interrogations. There was also a report from an Italian news source on 5 November that said something along the lines of "Ominous words. It is not to be dismissed that sometime in the next few hours witnesses will become suspects." The latter two points have been made and cited repeatedly here and at Websleuths.

Police say British student may have known her killer

3 November 2007
A hundred police officers from across Italy have been brought in as part of a massive manhunt for the killer of Meredith Kercher, the British student whose semi-naked body was found in a bed on Friday with her throat cut.
As tributes poured in, Meredith's parents, Arline and John Kercher, were believed to have left their home in Coulsdon, Surrey, and flown to the Umbrian city of Perugia where their daughter was studying.

An official from Leeds University, where her course was based, also travelled to Italy yesterday to comfort students who knew Meredith. A spokeswoman said a whole department was dedicated to supporting students moving abroad and all received guidance before going.

The officer leading the investigation said he had no suspects for the murder, which was committed between 10pm Thursday and 10am Friday, after Meredith returned home from a friend's house. 'We have 100 officers on this case and are not ruling out any possibilities,' said Marco Chiacchiera, head of the Perugia flying squad, who has been joined by forensic police from Rome.

Police found Meredith on her bed covered by a duvet and wearing only a T-shirt, her throat cut by a sharp object or knife thrust just once in an upward motion with great force. There was no evidence of a sexual attack, said Chiacchiera, who added that the killer may have entered the bedroom by a window before leaving by the front door, stopping to wash off blood in the bathroom, where blood traces were found.

Meredith's bedroom window was broken, leaving a shard of glass as possible murder weapon, while her body was left locked in the bedroom with no sign of the key. Nothing appeared to be stolen.

Police were alerted after Meredith's two mobile phones were found near the house by an elderly local woman who said she had received threats; that line of inquiry was later abandoned.

Meredith's flatmates, an American woman and two Italian women, have told investigators they were not sleeping in the house on Thursday and returned there Friday. They were being questioned yesterday.

There were reports that Meredith may have known her killer because the door of the cottage had not been forced and her bedroom window was 30 feet from the ground. 'We are now questioning all Kercher's friends, male and female,' added Chiacchiera.

 

[Grinder]

British student 'made date with her killer'


By Chris Hastings and Jasper Copping in Perugia12:01AM GMT 04 Nov 2007

A British student murdered in Italy may have invited the killer into her home, police investigating her death now believe.
Officers think Meredith Kercher, 21, left three flatmates to go home alone after watching a film on the night she was murdered because she had arranged to see a man she had met the previous night at a Hallowe'en party.

Miss Kercher, whose parents live in Coulsden, Surrey, was a student at Leeds University on a foreign exchange trip in Perugia, central Italy.

Police said last night there were indications that she had sex before she was stabbed in the neck. Her attacker locked the bedroom door before fleeing the house and dumping her two mobile phones in a nearby garden.

 

[Bill Williams]

A plausible route of contamination will need to be shown to the court for them to make a mental note and toss it out . There is no plausible contamination route yet and ditto for the clasp.

Several plausible routes have been discussed in these threads on more than one occasion. But that is not the most fundamental problem with the position that the CSC has taken. I can only think of one case where a likely route of DNA contamination was determined. The majority of cases of contamination with which I am familiar do not have known routes, and I am not sure that they qualify as even having likely routes.

Stefanoni herself said under oath, during cross examination, that she could not rule out that she'd touched the bra-hook with her obviously dirty glove. She said this while being shown her own Scientific Police video, the problem being that the angle of the camera did not allow confirmation that she'd actually touched it.

So Bongiorno asked her directly. Stefanoni could neither confirm nor deny that she'd touched it.

I therefore do not know what would count for you as a "plausible route"?

 

[Briars]

Well were they on the same schedule? You seem to be into sounds, dogs barking and all .

If Amanda had said she never locks her door and Filomena said the opposite, you'd claim that was an indication Amanda was lying and guilty.

Ask yourself why Amanda would lie about the locking. She under PGP scenarios wanted to "control" the investigation. Are you thinking she wanted to talk the PP into leaving and wait for the Carabinieri to show up?

She wanted her rather slow awareness of something to be really wrong to work. Otherwise seeing the purse and having RS on hand prior to the police arrival would mean the two of them should have made getting the door open a priority especially when they " discovered " the breakin. Sollecito seeing the breakin and purse , blood etc should have busted the door down. Instead they don't even try her phones again once at the cottage.

 

[Briars]

Stefanoni herself said under oath, during cross examination, that she could not rule out that she'd touched the bra-hook with her obviously dirty glove. She said this while being shown her own Scientific Police video, the problem being that the angle of the camera did not allow confirmation that she'd actually touched it.

So Bongiorno asked her directly. Stefanoni could neither confirm nor deny that she'd touched it.

I therefore do not know what would count for you as a "plausible route"?

A plausible source for the DNA , Mach said the room was open so guess the door handle is out, Besides it was a clean profile which wasn't found , even the processed cigarette butt was a mixed one.

 

[Grinder]

She wanted her rather slow awareness of something to be really wrong to work.

I don't understand what you mean.

Otherwise seeing the purse and having RS on hand prior to the police arrival would mean the two of them should have made getting the door open a priority especially when they " discovered " the breakin. Sollecito seeing the breakin and purse , blood etc should have busted the door down. Instead they don't even try her phones again once at the cottage.

How would anybody know that they had or hadn't seen the purse?

Since the PP didn't break the door down or suggest that Raf do it, doesn't that make the scene less desperate than you make it to be. Remember, the PP had the missing phones in addition to the scene at the cottage, yet didn't do anything until Filomena arrived.

There was only a couple of drops of blood initially noticed.

As I said earlier if the opinions on the frequency of the door being locked were reversed I'm sure you would still argue it pointed to guilt.

What is the word for closed? What is the word for locked?

 

[Grinder]

A plausible source for the DNA , Mach said the room was open so guess the door handle is out, Besides it was a clean profile which wasn't found , even the processed cigarette butt was a mixed one.

The door to Meredith's room was locked when Raf said he gave the door a try. We have no idea how many times the door knob was touched from that time until the rediscovery of the bra clasp.

It is very likely that Raf's DNA was on other items in Amanda's room and on towels like the ones Rudy used to try to save Meredith. It is also possible that Meredith put the DNA on it herself after drying her hands on the same towel Raf used in the bath or the kitchen.

I thought that there were other profiles on the clasp that were never identified.