Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Briars]

Hold on no one has ruled out the DNA of Meredith on the knife. The second sample from Amanda only adds to the probability it was used on the victim

 

[Strozzi]

They were interviewed as witnesses so there was no requirement to record them. This has been discussed many times. Amanda has said some curious things like she was worried about the knife. She also totally forgot that she had called her mother earlier and didn't even remember when questioned.

Briars, I believe the interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele on the night of Nov 5/6 were recorded and are being hidden or have been destroyed. The police had many people there to work that night, Giobbi was in the control room and Mignini joined him there later where they together jointly watched Amanda for body language.

I don't believe that someone would have pressed record but didn't because of budget issues.

By the way, are you aware that the animation created at Mignini's and Comodi's behest cost EURO 182,000?

 

[Briars]

That's not what Mignini said. Was he lying?

What MIgnini said they followed proper procedure taping not needed during witness stage . Change over to suspect halted the questioning and the signed statement was made in the morning as a suspect.

 

[Briars]

Briars, I believe the interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele on the night of Nov 5/6 were recorded and are being hidden or have been destroyed. The police had many people there to work that night, Giobbi was in the control room and Mignini joined him there later where they together jointly watched Amanda for body language.

I don't believe that someone would have pressed record but didn't because of budget issues.

By the way, are you aware that the animation created at Mignini's and Comodi's behest cost EURO 182,000?

Yes those animations are expensive but worth it. There is no indication there is a tape that is the lore of a blogger who switched sides. Speaking about money I said here before the trial Amanda should have paid her debt to Patrick , now it appears others think that is a big deal too.

 

[Bill Williams]

That's not what Mignini said. Was he lying?

What MIgnini said they followed proper procedure taping not needed during witness stage . Change over to suspect halted the questioning and the signed statement was made in the morning as a suspect.

Then you're saying Mignini is a liar, Briars, because that's not the way Mignini put it. He said there was not taping or transcribing because of budgetary reasons. Machiavelli can confirm this - he did the English translation of Mignini's words on the CNN Drew Griffin interview.

And remember, the next day Mignini went up to Griffin on the street and said, "Did I sound believable?"

 

[kwill]

What MIgnini said they followed proper procedure taping not needed during witness stage . Change over to suspect halted the questioning and the signed statement was made in the morning as a suspect.

CNN: Why wasn’t there any video or transcript of those hours?

Mignini: Look, that’s, I was at the police station, and all the…let’s say…when I made investigations in my own office, I taped them. I taped them, we have an apparatus for that, and I transcribed them. For example, there’s the interrogation of the English girls, Meredith’s friends, it was all taped. The interrogations of Amanda in prison were taped, and then transcribed, and we have the transcripts of… But in a police station, at the very moment of the investigation it isn’t done, not with respect to Amanda or anyone else. Also because, I can tell you, today, even then, but today in particular, we have budget problems, budget problems that are not insignificant, which do not allow us to transcribe.

He definitely does not say that they followed proper procedure and that taping was not needed during a witness stage. Can you find the words, "proper procedure" or "taping was not needed" or "witness stage" in that response?

No. What he says is that "at the very moment of investigation" it isn't done. I have no idea what that means, do you? What is the very moment of investigation? The investigation into facts went on for an entire year before Amanda and Raffaele were even charged, so that was one heck of long moment -- and during it there were definitely lots of tapes made and transcribed.

Also, please explain what he means by that last sentence. Was it budget problems that precluded the taping? If so, how expensive is it to press Record?
If not, why bring it up in reply to this question:

CNN:Why wasn’t there any video or transcript of those hours?

According to your own claim above, Amanda's changeover from witness to suspect halted the questioning. What time do think that event took place?

 

[Bill Williams]

Briars - here's another on-line piece which pretty much summarizes the smell of Crini's case...

Enjoy!

http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/11/30/amanda-knox-continues-to-be-bogged-down-by-floating-evidence/

Amanda Knox Continues to be Bogged Down By Floating Evidence

The prosecution has nothing to go on other than highly manipulable and some purely invented innocuous circumstantial evidence, so they come up with these silly stories and multiple, changing theories, turning mundane niggles that may or may not have existed, and which the other flat-mates have not even supported as significant, into full-blown lethal Bravo dramas. In past hearings the judge asserted that there was in fact no household hostility, but that the crime occurred because the three casually found themselves together and because they were “high on drugs”, and that things got out of hand when Guede initiated a sexual assault on Meredith after being aroused because he saw Knox and Sollecito snogging. Seriously? This is like a bunch of script-writers haggling over the most “awesome” plot for a really dark, really bad version of American Pie. And that is exactly what it is, a script, a fiction cobbled together with various alternative plot-lines. Maybe one day we will get the director’s cut – uncut…

 

[Briars]

CNN: Why wasn’t there any video or transcript of those hours?

Mignini: Look, that’s, I was at the police station, and all the…let’s say…when I made investigations in my own office, I taped them. I taped them, we have an apparatus for that, and I transcribed them. For example, there’s the interrogation of the English girls, Meredith’s friends, it was all taped. The interrogations of Amanda in prison were taped, and then transcribed, and we have the transcripts of… But in a police station, at the very moment of the investigation it isn’t done, not with respect to Amanda or anyone else. Also because, I can tell you, today, even then, but today in particular, we have budget problems, budget problems that are not insignificant, which do not allow us to transcribe.

He definitely does not say that they followed proper procedure and that taping was not needed during a witness stage. Can you find the words, "proper procedure" or "taping was not needed" or "witness stage" in that response?

No. What he says is that "at the very moment of investigation" it isn't done. I have no idea what that means, do you? What is the very moment of investigation? The investigation into facts went on for an entire year before Amanda and Raffaele were even charged, so that was one heck of long moment -- and during it there were definitely lots of tapes made and transcribed.

Also, please explain what he means by that last sentence. Was it budget problems that precluded the taping? If so, how expensive is it to press Record?
If not, why bring it up in reply to this question:

CNN:Why wasn’t there any video or transcript of those hours?

According to your own claim above, Amanda's changeover from witness to suspect halted the questioning. What time do think that event took place?

Taping of a witness is not required so protocol was followed. If MIgnini likes to take the initiative and tape witnesses that does not mean that the police were required to do so. So not required and they would have no idea that these two witnesses would suddenly have no agreed alibi and one would rush and blame her boss. Too bad they didn't.take that extra but not required step,and record it. Donnino who appears completely trustworthy gave a detailed account of what went on.

 

[moije2]

Hold on no one has ruled out the DNA of Meredith on the knife. The second sample from Amanda only adds to the probability it was used on the victim

You are saying this with seriousness? Just trying to understand where you are coming from. Seriously.

 

[Briars]

Briars - here's another on-line piece which pretty much summarizes the smell of Crini's case...

Enjoy!

http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/11/30/amanda-knox-continues-to-be-bogged-down-by-floating-evidence/

Amanda Knox Continues to be Bogged Down By Floating Evidence

Sure BIll pitch fork who posts on IIP as believable as Nigel Scott or Denver on ground report fan based rubbish

 

[Bill Williams]

Taping of a witness is not required so protocol was followed. If MIgnini likes to take the initiative and tape witnesses that does not mean that the police were required to do so. So not required and they would have no idea that these two witnesses would suddenly have no agreed alibi and one would rush and blame her boss. Too bad they didn't.take that extra but not required step,and record it. Donnino who appears completely trustworthy gave a detailed account of what went on.

Trouble is, Briars, this is not the account Mignini himself gives. Read what kwill posted again. You can have your opinions and assertions, but you cannot have the facts.

 

[Briars]

You are saying this with seriousness? Just trying to understand where you are coming from. Seriously.

Please cite where as of today Dec 1 the DNA from the victim has been ruled out. Seriously

 

[Bill Williams]

Sure BIll pitch fork who posts on IIP as believable as Nigel Scott or Denver on ground report fan based rubbish

Huh?

 

[Briars]

Bill please cite where a witness is required by law to be taped in Italy. Thanks

 

[acbytesla]

State troopers dispatched to the Norwalk Courthouse Sunday night found a person had entered the building through a broken window, but apparently nothing was taken.

Wow, they wrote this story over 24 hours after the break-in but still used the modifier "apparently".

It is clear that had he said "apparently" or "it doesn't seem", I wouldn't think the answer odd or suspicious.

It is my impression that perps make subtle mistakes rather than blurting out "I killed her", but with this group that statement would be spun that he felt responsible for her murder because he had met Amanda and otherwise she wouldn't have been alone.

People in general make mistakes Grinder.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hold on no one has ruled out the DNA of Meredith on the knife. The second sample from Amanda only adds to the probability it was used on the victim

You are saying this with seriousness? Just trying to understand where you are coming from. Seriously.

Please cite where as of today Dec 1 the DNA from the victim has been ruled out. Seriously

Really? Well, you have one thing right - Nencini has not yet ruled on the RIS Carabineiri report. We'll have to wait for Nencini's motivations report for the full skinny on that one.

But as far as what is highlighted above, you hold a minority opinion. I don't know of ANY news outlet who has reported on it that way. Heck, I don't even think Andrea Vogt reported on it that way!

You're entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is this - the reason why Crini had to make the bald, evidenceless statement that the kitchen knife is a match for the outline on the bedsheet, is that otherwise there is no reason to believe that knife ever got near the cottage. By Stefanoni's own admission (as recorded in the Massei motivations) report, she only did one test on the alleged Meredith DNA. It was a destructive test - meaning that no second test could be done.... and minimal DNA protocol, as I understand it, requires two tests for each question one wants answered.... apparently you cannot simultaneously test for who the DNA belongs to, as well as what kind of biological material it is. That makes at least four tests needed for the thing to be minimally forensically meaningful. Stefanoni did one.

In every other court in the world that would render the 36B sample forensically worthless.

It is my opinion that Crini knows this, and knows that Nencini knows this... therefore the Hail Mary pass of "the kitchen knife matches the outline on the sheet". Not even the ISC last March alleged that, and most certainly Mignini/Comodi didn't think they'd get away with that.... lessee, whatever happened to the two-knife scenario... it was around here somewhere a moment ago.

So Crini has abandoned the two-knife scenario in an attempt to rescue the kitchen knife now that the the RIS Carabineiri has ruled it out for reasons of DNA.

And no, I don't have a cite. But it was in all the papers. Now even the Daily Mail is calling this prosecution a mockery. The DAILY MAIL!!!!

Moije2 just wants to know where you're coming from.

 

[acbytesla]

Flatmates who lived in close quarters probably had a good idea if someone locked their door often or not. Returnig from the shower was she observed taking a key to unlock the door as Amanda said she did. The sound of a key in a lock makes a distinctive sound and that was either a common daily occurence or not.A sound that could be heard in the next room even if noone was in the hall. Filomena was certain she never locked her door and with good reason.

You really don't know what you are talking about. I lived in a rooming house near the UW when I went to school. Shared Bathrooms and Kitchen. We each had locked bedrooms. Some of us were close to each other and others were in another world. You simply CAN'T make this kind of blanket statement about others. You don't know, I don't know.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill please cite where a witness is required by law to be taped in Italy. Thanks

Mignini cited it to Ficarra. Read the CNN interview with Drew Pearson. Mignini quotes the applicable law.... and, yes, I do know you used the word "witness". In Italy there are only "suspects" and "people informed of the facts". Why WOULDN'T they want to tape someone informed of the facts?

I am also aware that the cops taped, by their own admission, everything else. Doesn't it strike you as a little strange when a cop goes into an interrogation room, and perhaps says, "Hey Vinny, for this first part of the interview, we won't be needing the recording stuff."?

 

[kwill]

Taping of a witness is not required so protocol was followed.

So sorry, but this is what you said:

What MIgnini said they followed proper procedure taping not needed during witness stage .

He most definitely did not say this when asked directly why there was no tape. He could have, of course, but it's not what he said. Instead he gave some mumbo jumbo about how he taped the English "girls" and how Amanda was taped in prison . . . and then explained that there were budget problems.

So my question is still the same: why does Mignini not just tell the CNN interviewer that in Italy there is no requirement to tape interviews with witnesses?

If MIgnini likes to take the initiative and tape witnesses that does not mean that the police were required to do so.

Another dodge. He certainly could have said as much to the CNN guy, yes? He didn't. He blathered on about the budget. What a disingenuous creeper.

So not required and they would have no idea that these two witnesses would suddenly have no agreed alibi and one would rush and blame her boss. Too bad they didn't.take that extra but not required step,and record it. Donnino who appears completely trustworthy gave a detailed account of what went on.

Ah, but they did have an agreed-upon alibi. The only time it ever changed was during their unrecorded midnight interviews, and we all know what they both say happened during those hours. Don't you wish there were a tape, so that Mignini could show he's telling the truth?

Donnino helpfully told Amanda that she herself had suffered a lapse of memory after a traumatic incident, but then she testified that this was NOT to be understood as a suggestion that Amanda might be having a similar lapse. No, indeed! When I think of this middle-aged woman with daughters of her own manipulating Amanda Knox in the dead of night, when she was the only person with whom Amanda could converse in her own language, it makes me lose a little faith in humanity.

She's completely trustworthy if your point of reference is Richard Nixon, I guess.

I still want to know what you believe was the moment at which Amanda switched from witness to suspect.

 

[Bill Williams]

Ah, but they did have an agreed-upon alibi. The only time it ever changed was during their unrecorded midnight interviews, and we all know what they both say happened during those hours. Don't you wish there were a tape, so that Mignini could show he's telling the truth?

This is where the Perugian case is mildly reminiscent of the Debra Milke case. In fact, the only time, really, that the two did not support each other - as far as alibi was concerned - was when they were not being taped. The two emorandums Knox signed simply could not have been written by her - in good Italian, and Italian legaese to boot.... curiously with all the legal niceties covers (eg. "I wish to spontaneously declare.....")

Nice catch, kwill.

Donnino helpfully told Amanda that she herself had suffered a lapse of memory after a traumatic incident, but then she testified that this was NOT to be understood as a suggestion that Amanda might be having a similar lapse. No, indeed! When I think of this middle-aged woman with daughters of her own manipulating Amanda Knox in the dead of night, when she was the only person with whom Amanda could converse in her own language, it makes me lose a little faith in humanity.

She's completely trustworthy if your point of reference is Richard Nixon, I guess.

I still want to know what you believe was the moment at which Amanda switched from witness to suspect.

The thing to add to this is Donnino's other snippet of testimony, that when she arrived at 12:30, the interrogation was already in disarray. She testified that she then proceeded to act "as a mediator" between Knox and the police (Ficarra). Knox needed a translator, and here we have Donnino herself suggesting that it was no good to simply translate - something needed mediating.... what?

So it is completely unknown if Donnino was trustworthy as a translator. And so far, this is only taking her at her own word, before factoring in what Knox said....

How can ANYONE be sure that Knox even knew what was happening, other than that she was being called a dirty liar and slapped on the back of the head? At the very least she needed accurate translation.

Knox claims even when she was sent to solitary after her arrest, it wasn't entirely clear to her that she was being accused of the crime. She thought Mignini was the "mayor". The job of a translator is a tough one, I'll agree, does one woodenly translate the words - or does one translate the meaning into the other's language's idiom?

Meaning, how did Donnio translate, "Amanda... this is the Public Minister, Dr. Mignini"? Did she just translate the literal words which would have had no meaning to a 20 year old from Seattle, or did she translate the meaning, "Honey, this is the guy who will be prosecuting you....."? How would a 20 year old foreigner even know?

And by Donnino's own admission, she was meditating..... what had broken down between police and Knox to need such a thing? and why didn't they do get a mediator.... or, heavens, a lawyer!

That's the dirty part of what Mignini told Griffin and CNN.... that he'd stopped the "interview" with Ficarra and quoted the applicable law, which also included a lawyer. And then what did Mignini do......?

.... Mignini, after quoting the law, kept going. Without a lawyer. As a result the ISC ruled the two memorandums, not only one of them, but both of them inadmissible. Because Mignini broke the law.

He lied. Briars.... how do you interpret this? You seem to have opinions about stuff?