Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[yimyammer]

yim, are you trying to start something?

Either Meredith locked her door at other times then when she went back to England or she didn't.

Now they could both be telling the best truth they could.

No way man, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around all these damn issues

I don't see why something as mundane as locking the door has to be an always or never issue.

Having said that, I would be surprised if Meredith was in the habit of always locking her door. I can see closing it for privacy but not going to the trouble of locking it. And it wouldn't surprise me if Amanda saw/heard Meredith lock her door on occasion.

I'm left to wonder if the translation of Amanda's statements are an issue here, did she say Meredith always locked her door or sometimes did?

I'm not sure what it really matters either way.

I believe there was a definite "fog of war" going on at the time

 

[Dan O.]

I don't know where Skind got his or her quote from, but I earlier linked to a PGP website which is probably not good practice, but I assumed the translations etc would be valid. It does seem that he hung up, because Raffaele in his book said he was told to call back. He is wrong about that - he was told: "Just a moment please" a few moments earlier. I do wonder if actually Raffaele had these transcripts in front of him when he wrote this book because he gives in my view the correct gist of things but not precisely correct. He thinks he was asked whether it was a burglary in the second call, but actually it was the first. He was asked "What did they take?" in the second call.

TMMK seems to have the most complete transcript but their source is not entirely clear. The audio sounds like it was taken from a news broadcast and pieced together from fragments. If that is the case, they might have gotten some of the fragments mixed up.

It's such a shame that Machiavelli and Briars are unable to provided the sources that they are using to make definitive claims about this element?

 

[Grinder]

You don't seem to think it has in this case! "After the explanations and more knowledge I think it is of very little to no value"

My point has always been that the comment was such that the PLE were suspicious of it. That they reasonably said to themselves: "how could he know unless he was involved".

If the mat print matched and other evidence matched instead of being compatible, then his answer would be a pointer to guilt.

 

[Bill Williams]

Just to highlight the strangeness of all this.....

see: http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/cronaca/toscana/2013/notizia/sollecito-bloccato-in-aeroporto-firenzedopo-i-controlli-l-ok-alla-partenza_2012406.shtml?utm_content=buffer84d33&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

It seems that Raffaele was on a flight from Italy to Paris recently, and the airplane was held up on the tarmac... they needed to call Prosecutor Crini for permission for Raffaele to leave the country.

Crini granted it!

For what it's worth this piece mentions that Raffaele is back in Italy at the moment, but plans to holiday overseas for Christmas and return to Italy after.

I guess Crini does not consider Raffaele to be a flight risk! Sollecito is not likely to "interfere with evidence" either, which means that Crini is convinced the toilets of Italy are safe with Raffaele in the country.

 

[Briars]

What does this question ("what are you doing?"---> is this a correct translation?) to Amanda imply?

Amanda was listening and spoke up when the dispatcher said la via e the street is VIa della pentola. The dispatcher was trying to make sense of the broken window nothing stolen and spots of blood in the bathroom. Cop says because they cut themselves on the glass RS no answer ,pause ,cosa fai? Hangup. My theory was the call was not going as planned Amanda did something to get his attention or halt the call. Back with the second call RS reveals he is not sure the intruder went from the window to the bathroom. There is a closed door he says Cop so there is blood outside this door? RS no only in the bathroom.

 

[Briars]

TMMK seems to have the most complete transcript but their source is not entirely clear. The audio sounds like it was taken from a news broadcast and pieced together from fragments. If that is the case, they might have gotten some of the fragments mixed up.

It's such a shame that Machiavelli and Briars are unable to provided the sources that they are using to make definitive claims about this element?

The calls are on the murder of Meredith site with the transcript I believe they have also been posted on ,net these are complete nothing missing you can hear Amanda in the background at one point she just makes an ah sound.The dispatcher is great doesn't miss a beat after the hangup. Sollecito mutters and quickly says c!e una porta chiusa . He somehow knows there is only blood in the bathroom and nowhere else in the cottage, he doesn't bring up Meredith's purse seen on her bed seen through the keyhole.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Brairs,
good to see a pro-guilter return to give Mach some back-up here on The JREF!

Question:
Do you think that Amanda Knox murdered Meredith because Rudy took a dump in Laura+Filomena's bathroom and did not flush their toilet?

If so, why would Meredith have even have entered Laura+Filomena's bathroom after Guede-O used it? She apparently did not take a shower right then and put her old clothes back on, so no need to use their hair dryer, as Amanda did in the morning.

For what reason would Meredith even have to use their bathroom?
To see if Guede flushed?

 

[Bill Williams]

Amanda was listening and spoke up when the dispatcher said la via e the street is VIa della pentola. The dispatcher was trying to make sense of the broken window nothing stolen and spots of blood in the bathroom. Cop says because they cut themselves on the glass RS no answer ,pause ,cosa fai? Hangup. My theory was the call was not going as planned Amanda did something to get his attention or halt the call. Back with the second call RS reveals he is not sure the intruder went from the window to the bathroom. There is a closed door he says Cop so there is blood outside this door? RS no only in the bathroom.

You're not giving a "theory" in the strict sense of the word. You're making an assertion with nothing to support it:

From Wikipedia....

In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge, in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').

You are making an assertion with no evidence at all. Core to the concept of "theory" is that it can either be replicated or disproven. You're just making an opinion that no one can prove or disprove.

Good for you.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hi Brairs,
good to see a pro-guilter return to give Mach some back-up here on The JREF!

Question:
Do you think that Amanda Knox murdered Meredith because Rudy took a dump in Laura+Filomena's bathroom and did not flush their toilet?

If so, why would Meredith have even have entered Laura+Filomena's bathroom after Guede-O used it? She apparently did not take a shower right then and put her old clothes back on, so no need to use their hair dryer, as Amanda did in the morning.

For what reason would Meredith even have to use their bathroom?
To see if Guede flushed?

I don't think Briars wants to comment at all on the Nencini court, esp after Crini himself:

1) gave up on the sex-game gone wrong scenario mandated by the ISC as a reason to overturn Hellmann
2) decreed that the kitchen knife now miraculously matches the outline on the bedsheet, something even Mignini/Comodi weren't stupid enough to try to get away with
3) there is essentially no motive for Knox and Sollecito to have been involved, despite Mignini's Satanic Rites, Sex-game gone wrongs, and both Mignini's and Crini's tension between Meredith and Amanda, and Mignini's final there was not motive at all...
4) thinks that Sollecito is not a flight risk​

Briars has also not bothered to comment on, much less translate, the legal trouble many of the characters to do with the first prosecution are in, including BOTH former prosecutors! Not just one, but both.

Briars also has not commented on the RIS Carabinieri all but discounting that kitchen knife as the murder weapon. Expect more comment from Briars about partial comments from Knox, audible on 112 tapes, which could mean just about anything.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Briars,
So do you think that Miss Formica saw Rudy Guede that night on the stairway?
She stated in court, IIRC, that it wasn't Rudy Guede she saw that night,
and she saw the dude from a few feet away.

But many don't believe her testimony.
Do you?

 

[Briars]

Hi Briars,
So do you think that Miss Formica saw Rudy Guede that night on the stairway?
She stated in court, IIRC, that it wasn't Rudy Guede she saw that night,
and she saw the dude from a few feet away.

But many don't believe her testimony.
Do you?

A black man ran up the steps in a hurry knocked into her and didn't say anything, That stairwell would have been used primarily by people leaving the car park at that time of night. I think it was him , He ran by her so her look at him would be brief.

 

[Bill Williams]

A black man ran up the steps in a hurry knocked into her and didn't say anything, That stairwell would have been used primarily by people leaving the car park at that time of night. I think it was him , He ran by her so her look at him would be brief.

Well, it's clear Briars doesn't want to talk about the Nencini court or Crini's new "theories".

 

[Dan O.]

The calls are on the murder of Meredith site with the transcript I believe they have also been posted on ,net these are complete nothing missing you can hear Amanda in the background at one point she just makes an ah sound.The dispatcher is great doesn't miss a beat after the hangup. Sollecito mutters and quickly says c!e una porta chiusa . He somehow knows there is only blood in the bathroom and nowhere else in the cottage, he doesn't bring up Meredith's purse seen on her bed seen through the keyhole.

Thanks. I see I had misread Your initial post on this subject. You are agreeing that the dispatcher was first to bring up a possible theft but switched the topic to the growling incident. I missed that switch which is why I thought you were continuing Machiavelli's argument that is totally discredited by this source.

I am still curious as to when the full audio of the calls was acquired. So many of the other sources are incomplete, it makes me think that this is recent. Perhaps too recent to have been a resource for some book authors.

 

[Strozzi]

Couldn't they both be correct since they're from different points of views/experiences?

Yes, they both could be stating what they believe to be true. Filomena may believe that Meredith never locked her door. Amada may believe she did lock the door.

Amanda may have seen Meredith lock or unlock her bedroom door a number of times, and heard it more. Fulomina, who presumably works normal office hours at a law firm, presumably left home in the morning to get to her office by normal work time and returned after the workday was over.

I accept Amanda's statement as fact - that she knew Meredith (often or occasionally) locked her bedroom door. I accept Filomena's statement as fact with the caveat that she states what she knows while not being around during the work/school day and located as close to the door in question. I don't believe either are lying. One may be mistaken. I suspect Filomena was mistaken.

 

[Briars]

I don't think Briars wants to comment at all on the Nencini court, esp after Crini himself:

1) gave up on the sex-game gone wrong scenario mandated by the ISC as a reason to overturn Hellmann
2) decreed that the kitchen knife now miraculously matches the outline on the bedsheet, something even Mignini/Comodi weren't stupid enough to try to get away with
3) there is essentially no motive for Knox and Sollecito to have been involved, despite Mignini's Satanic Rites, Sex-game gone wrongs, and both Mignini's and Crini's tension between Meredith and Amanda, and Mignini's final there was not motive at all...
4) thinks that Sollecito is not a flight risk​

Briars has also not bothered to comment on, much less translate, the legal trouble many of the characters to do with the first prosecution are in, including BOTH former prosecutors! Not just one, but both.

Briars also has not commented on the RIS Carabinieri all but discounting that kitchen knife as the murder weapon. Expect more comment from Briars about partial comments from Knox, audible on 112 tapes, which could mean just about anything.

I like Crini's approach it is much more difficult to twist . The sex game gone wrong was always an attack with a sexual component. The twisting into came into play with the wording like the victim was a willing participant. Played up by Amanda how could there have been an orgy without evidence.Played up big time by your side like your Satanic stopping point. It was a twisted game and the part that went wrong was probably the extent of the assault ,her scream which he rightly surmised meant she needed to be silenced. TOD whether 10:15 or after 11pm still works with Formica and the two sleepy women who heard the scream and may have been off by an hour, Curatolo spotted then hanging around after 9 and remembered seeing them before he left. He didn't watch continuously even by his own account he was reading No bill I think Crini rocks you are just mad there is no foxy talk he is much more straight forward.Though you are trying your hardest with the toilet talk. The intrusion at the cottage , the loud group and possibly an annoyance with her messy ways may have started a fight.So Bill please be clear Crini does not base the motive for an escalating argument on just the unflushed toilet. As far as the knife the bed sheet print looks to me like there are two one lower than the other , that with the fold probably means it is impossible to judge the size. It is also true that we don't know if the knife was brought for cooking if someone brought it over for another reason. Point is if Meredith's DNA is on it that is the big point.

 

[Dan O.]

He somehow knows there is only blood in the bathroom and nowhere else in the cottage, he doesn't bring up Meredith's purse seen on her bed seen through the keyhole.

Excuse me, Sherlock. Could his somehow knowing about the visible blood in the cottage have anything to do with him having just been inside looking around? Would it have made any difference if he had mentioned the purse?

 

[Bill Williams]

I like Crini's approach it is much more difficult to twist . The sex game gone wrong was always an attack with a sexual component. The twisting into came into play with the wording like the victim was a willing participant. Played up by Amanda how could there have been an orgy without evidence.Played up big time by your side like your Satanic stopping point. It was a twisted game and the part that went wrong was probably the extent of the assault ,her scream which he rightly surmised meant she needed to be silenced. TOD whether 10:15 or after 11pm still works with Formica and the two sleepy women who heard the scream and may have been off by an hour, Curatolo spotted then hanging around after 9 and remembered seeing them before he left. He didn't watch continuously even by his own account he was reading No bill I think Crini rocks you are just mad there is no foxy talk he is much more straight forward.Though you are trying your hardest with the toilet talk. The intrusion at the cottage , the loud group and possibly an annoyance with her messy ways may have started a fight.So Bill please be clear Crini does not base the motive for an escalating argument on just the unflushed toilet. As far as the knife the bed sheet print looks to me like there are two one lower than the other , that with the fold probably means it is impossible to judge the size. It is also true that we don't know if the knife was brought for cooking if someone brought it over for another reason. Point is if Meredith's DNA is on it that is the big point.

Thanks for giving it the college try. Once again, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest anything in your account actually happened, much less that Knox or Sollecito were even there. But thanks for giving it a go.

I agree with your last statement. And given that Stefanoni's analysis of that speck, in a non-existent groove, is what this turns on, the RIS Carabinieri have pretty much put all that to rest.

In any meaningful forensic way, Meredith's DNA was not on that knife. There is then not only nothing linking AK and RSA to the cottage that night, there is nothing linking MK to that knife.

But there's still a little bit of smoke and mirrors to come... but in the end, it really is in Nencini's hands. Truly, Italian jurisprudence is on the line here. The ISC last March turned the eyes of the world on to Italy. Even the Daily Mail and Il Messaggero are basically mocking Crini's presentation....

 

[Strozzi]

The calls are on the murder of Meredith site with the transcript I believe they have also been posted on ,net these are complete nothing missing . . .

Briars, I'm not too familiar with that site. Does it also have the transcripts of the Nov5/6 nighttime interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele? I would like to read them. I've been having difficulty locating them. Somehow they were misplaced.

How about the transcript recorded in prison of Amanda talking with her mother about being at Raffaele's and saying "I was there"? You know, the transcript that the prosecution mischaracterized and which Hellman ruled meant she was at Raffaele's flat. It's the one that Andrea Vogt is still using to deceive readers. I sure would like to read the entire transcript - not just a phrase taken out of context without the preceding and following parts of the conversation.

 

[Briars]

Briars, I'm not too familiar with that site. Does it also have the transcripts of the Nov5/6 nighttime interrogation of Amanda and Raffaele? I would like to read them. Somehow they are missing from this site.

How about the transcript recorded in prison of Amanda talking with her mother about being at Raffaele's and saying "I was there"? You know, the transcript that the prosecution mischaracterized and which Hellman ruled meant she was at Raffaele's flat. It's the one that Andrea Vogt is still using to deceive readers. I sure would like to read the entire transcript - not just a phrase taken ou of context without the preceeding and following parts of the conversation.

They were interviewed as witnesses so there was no requirement to record them. This has been discussed many times. Amanda has said some curious things like she was worried about the knife. She also totally forgot that she had called her mother earlier and didn't even remember when questioned.

 

[kwill]

They were interviewed as witnesses so there was no requirement to record them.

That's not what Mignini said. Was he lying?