Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Stamuel]

Best keep looking then lad - your claim, your burden of proof.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Please direct us to a site that criticizes Boniva or Zoloft. Then we can go for a site that criticizes the use of squalene in vaccines.

Still no approval of research/news type site that criticizes drug/vaccine companies and their products?

While this is not directly related to vaccines, it goes to undermine the claim that only conspiracy websites ever make negative claims about drug companies. First, here is the FDA web site listing just the drugs that were recalled in just the week of November 13: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scrip...action=Expand+Index&w=11132013&lang=eng#drugs. These are drugs made by drug companies, and this is a web site listing problems with them. Not only that, these companies were sanctioned for the drugs. This is the FDA, not a conspiracy website.

Since Boniva was mentioned specifically, here is a non-conspiracy source listing the adverse event reports for the use of Boniva: http://www.drugcite.com/?q=BONIVA

Boniva is a biophosphonate (secifically Ibandronic acid). Here is an artice questioning the use of biophosphonates due to their negative effect on the healing of bone fractures.

Savaridas, T.; Wallace, R. J.; Salter, D. M.; Simpson, A. H. R. W. "Do bisphosphonates inhibit direct fracture healing?: A LABORATORY INVESTIGATION USING AN ANIMAL MODEL." The Bone & Joint Journal. 95-B(9):1263-1268, September 2013.

As far as I can find out, The Bone and Joint Journal is a legitimate journal.

Here is another article about oral biophosphanates, this time detailing cases where they led to osteonecrosis of the jaw: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22595135

O'Ryan FS, Lo JC. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2012. "Bisphosphonate-related osteonecrosis of the jaw in patients with oral bisphosphonate exposure: clinical course and outcomes." 70(8):1844-53. doi: 10.1016/j.joms.2011.08.033.

Next, this article from the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research provides evidence that long term use can increase the risk of certain bone fractures: http://www.asbmr.org/about/pressreleases/detail.aspx?cid=a68f2b70-a117-4094-9f6f-b5993c6a6149

It is not hard to find legitimate information about the negative aspects of drugs. It is not being covered up.

 

[Clayton Moore]

While this is not directly related to vaccines, it goes to undermine the claim that only conspiracy websites ever make negative claims about drug companies. First, here is the FDA web site listing just the drugs that were recalled in just the week of November 13: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scrip...action=Expand+Index&w=11132013&lang=eng#drugs. These are drugs made by drug companies, and this is a web site listing problems with them. Not only that, these companies were sanctioned for the drugs. This is the FDA, not a conspiracy website.

Since Boniva was mentioned specifically, here is a non-conspiracy source listing the adverse event reports for the use of Boniva: http://www.drugcite.com/?q=BONIVA

Boniva is a biophosphonate (secifically Ibandronic acid). Here is an artice questioning the use of biophosphonates due to their negative effect on the healing of bone fractures.

Savaridas, T.; Wallace, R. J.; Salter, D. M.; Simpson, A. H. R. W. "Do bisphosphonates inhibit direct fracture healing?: A LABORATORY INVESTIGATION USING AN ANIMAL MODEL." The Bone & Joint Journal. 95-B(9):1263-1268, September 2013.

As far as I can find out, The Bone and Joint Journal is a legitimate journal.

Here is another article about oral biophosphanates, this time detailing cases where they led to osteonecrosis of the jaw: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22595135

O'Ryan FS, Lo JC. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2012. "Bisphosphonate-related osteonecrosis of the jaw in patients with oral bisphosphonate exposure: clinical course and outcomes." 70(8):1844-53. doi: 10.1016/j.joms.2011.08.033.

Next, this article from the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research provides evidence that long term use can increase the risk of certain bone fractures: http://www.asbmr.org/about/pressreleases/detail.aspx?cid=a68f2b70-a117-4094-9f6f-b5993c6a6149

It is not hard to find legitimate information about the negative aspects of drugs. It is not being covered up.

Other than the FDA site did you ever know of those sites?

Boniva and Zoloft are still being sold!!! Zoloft is for depression but many teens taking it have committed suicide. Are those sites championing getting the dangerous drugs/vaccines off the "shelves?"

Oh wait, there are no dangerous vaccines.

 

[Bingowings]

Zoloft is for depression but many teens taking it have committed suicide.

That anti-depressants do not immediately and completely cure depression is not news. Some people with depression commit suicide, on or off medication. I know all about that. This has absolutely nothing to do with vaccines causing autism.

Oh wait, there no dangerous vaccines.

No-one in this thread has said vaccines do not have risk associated with them. It would be incorrect to claim otherwise.

More vaccine industry shenanigans.
http://www.quora.com/Gary-Null-1/A-.../A-New-Flu-Season-of-Pain-Profit-and-Politics

All the footnote links on that page are to a Microsoft Word file on someone called Rob's C: drive, I'm sure accidentally. It links to this: http://file///C:/Users/rob/Desktop/Gary Null/FLU VACCINE 2013.docx#_edn3
which would appear to be something Gary Null has written called FLU VACCINE 2013.docx. Sadly, the secrets of this no doubt ground-breaking treatise are unavailable to anyone but Rob.

Note to self: Always check the footnotes if I'm going to include them in a quote to make my evidence look more impressive.

 

[Dcdrac]

Boniva and Zoloft are anti depressants and oesterperosis drugs clayton what on earth does this have to do with vaccines???

http://www.ehealthme.com/boniva-nexium-zoloft-3875043

 

[Reality Check]

Where in this anti-vaccine propaganda is the effect of vaccines on evolution detailed

http://vran.org/about-vaccines/vacc...d-adjuvants/a-glimpse-into-vaccine-adjuvants/

As I said before, vaccines are destabilizing evolution.

Clayton Moore:
Where in this ignorant bit of paranoid anti-vaccine propaganda is the effect of vaccines on evolution detailed?
First asked 21 November 2013 - 0 days and counting.

As everyone who reads this thread knows that statement is an ignorant delusion:
Clayton Moore's 32 statements and 251 259 days of ignorance and delusion!

What is your evidence that only vaccines "are destabilizing millions of years of human evolution"?
First asked 17 September 2013. many days and counting.
It is almost as you are unaware that modern agriculture, civil works (sewers, etc.), medicine, etc. exist!
Clayton Moore: For that matter what does "destabilizing" mean in evolutionary terms? Evolution almost by definition is not stable!

P.S.
What makes US children so different from the children in the rest of the world that a study needs to be done just for them?
First asked 12 November 2013. 9 days and counting.

 

[Reality Check]

Have you checked the references on that propaganda piece on an anti-vaccine web site

I surmise you didn't read the following.

The point is, Clayton Moore, that continuously quoting a really dumb anti-vaccine web page is just silly.

We thus know you didn't understand the following despite replying to it with an tirade about haters :

Crackpot site hosts crackpot article authored by crackpot. Breaking news. Still at least the author provides 13 references at the end, so it must be kosher, right? Right?

Here's an idea, let's check those 13 references.

1. whale.to? It is to laugh.

2. altcorp.com? Link farm.

3. vran.com? Circular self reference.

4. Oxford University Press? Genuine research article detailing possible links between vaccines and extremely rare side effects.

5. Dead link.

6. Link farm insert for crackpot selling a book. Only available via the wayback machine.

7. Same guy, same link farm.

8. and 9. Dead links, the referred chap, one Vijendra Singh is a big hit on whale.to.

10. No link provided. Colour me sceptical, but Bonnie Dunbar is an astronaut. She might be peeved with such an association.

11. vran.com again? Circular self reference.

12. Links to an index of prior issues of a newsletter. Referenced article does not exist.

13. No such domain.

Of course Clayton Moore, you did check the validity of the references before posting that here, right? Right?

So I will make this an actual question:
Clayton Moore,
Have you checked the references on the A Glimpse into the Scary World of Vaccine Adjuvants propaganda piece on an anti-vaccine web site?
If you have then do you realize how ignorant the assertions on that web page are?
First asked 21 November 2013 - 0 days and counting.

 

[Reality Check]

If you care about your loved ones you will be receptive to the truth and amiable to the messengers of the truth.

Wow now we have some imaginary, religious "messengers of the truth" from you, Clayton Moore !
If you care about your loved ones, Clayton Moore, you would follow the best medical advice which would be to vaccinate them. That is what I do.
If you care about your loved ones, Clayton Moore, you would not be follow the advice of random crank web sites on the Internet.

You need to let go of the paranoid idea that every product that companies make are bad, even if some companies do sell bad products.
I wonder: do you drive a car, Clayton Moore, even though you know about the body of work of the avaricious car companies and their capricious reactions to valid questioning of their products .

You need to review the body of work of scientists and their scientific and valid questioning of various products.

You need to understand some basic medicine, Clayton Moore, that most dire side effects are preceded by intermediate less visible damage. Kidney damage before renal failure. And that is how diseases progress ! They start off small and get worse. Some then diminish (e.g. influenza - I am just recovering from a bout). Some even get worse, e.g. cancer.

You need to understand that a baby/toddler may reach its at birth potential as an adult because of vaccines. Who would be the wiser if little Billy died at 6 months strangling due to diphtheria? The answer is no one of course.

You do not seem to be worried about the millions of people who would die if we followed the advice of these crank anti-vaccine web sites and did not use vaccines.

 

[Reality Check]

It's a toss up which is the most viciously audacious prevarication, "3." or we can't figure out the cause of GWS or we can't figure out the cause of autism or we can't figure out the huge increase of asthma cases.

It is actually: "3. Clayton Moore will repeatedly deny a simple fact"
Clayton Moore's 32 statements and 251 259 days of ignorance and delusion!

Clayton Moore: Do you understand that GWS is not caused by squalene in the vaccines?
First asked 17th October 2013: many days and counting.

or
"3. Clayton Moore will repeatedly assert without evidence that the cause of autism not being known means that cause of autism is vaccines ".
Clayton Moore: Cite the studies showing the links between the MMR jab and autism.
First asked 4 March 2013 - 251 days and counting!

or
"3. Clayton Moore will repeatedly assert his ignorance that causes of autism are known but incomplete": Causes of autism.

or
"3. Clayton Moore will repeatedly assert without evidence that the cause of the "huge" increase of asthma cases not being known means that cause of 'huge" increase of asthma cases is vaccines ".
Clayton Moore, Are you intelligent enough to cite the science that vaccines can cause asthma?
First asked 30th April 2013 - many days and counting

Or even
"3. Clayton Moore will repeatedly assert his ignorance of what an unknown cause means !".
If a cause is unknown then no one knows what the cause is - not even Clayton Moore !

 

[Niche Geek]

Other than the FDA site did you ever know of those sites?

Are you suggesting that the only sites with which you, Clayton Moore, are familiar are acceptable as evidence? Are you unfamiliar with the National Institutes of Health?

Boniva and Zoloft are still being sold!!!

That seems to imply that the only acceptable response to criticism is withdrawal. The other option is to use the substance more judiciously. That seems common sense. Do you take a similar approach with all substances in your life? People drown every day, have you stopped drinking water?

 

[000063]

More unverified nonsense. And nothing to to with the topic of the thread. When are you going to present the evidence that vaccines cause autism? You're getting beyond a joke.

getting

Aren't we charitable!

Other than the FDA site did you ever know of those sites?

"There aren't any drug-critical websites!"
"Here are some."
"Th-those don't count because I you never heard of them!"

Boniva and Zoloft are still being sold!!! Zoloft is for depression but many teens taking it have committed suicide. Are those sites championing getting the dangerous drugs/vaccines off the "shelves?"

Speaking as a former who stared into that abyss, sometimes antidepressants just plain don't work, and I'd appreaciate if you'd stop using suicide victims to try and create an emotional response.

Oh wait, there are no dangerous vaccines.

Considering that neither Boniva or Zoloft are vaccines, Non Sequitur.

Anti-depressants are now vaccines? Clueless. You are all over the place. Try and concentrate.

Concentrated? Like the concentrated gunk they inject into babies' gastrointestinal tracts?

 

[Stamuel]

Other than the FDA site did you ever know of those sites?

[...].

I had heard of the FDA, of course.



Some of the other articles I found using PubMed (aka Medline). I have heard of this site as well: PubMed indexes medical journals and allows you to search for articles. If I understand correctly, it is one of the first stops physicians make in researching treatments. To find the articles, I simply searched using the search term 'Boniva'. If something turns up in a simple PubMed search, it is not hidden from physicians.



The other articles I posted were linked directly from the Boniva Wikipedia page. This is often one of the first stops for a lay person when researching something.




Thus, whether lay person or physician, the information is easy to find. If you name some vaccines, I am confident the same will be true of them as well.

 

[Reality Check]

More from Respectful Insolence: Sometimes good things happen: The antivaccine fringe suffers a setback in Congress

 

[Clayton Moore]

The Greedy History and Forefathers of Vaccines


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NheKUW6kGuY

 

[Dcdrac]

So still no evidence at all that vaccines cause autism then clayton just another daffy youtube video

 

[dafydd]

So still no evidence at all that vaccines cause autism then clayton just another daffy youtube video

Damn that duck!!

 

[LSSBB]

So still no evidence at all that vaccines cause autism then clayton just another daffy youtube video

Destined for AAH greatness...

 

[Capsid]

CM making sure this thread stays alive.

 

[dafydd]

CM making sure this thread stays alive.

Unlike his fantasy of vaccinations causing autism.

 

[Reality Check]

The Greedy History and Forefathers of Vaccines

Oh dear Clayton Moore: argument by irrelevant YouTube video !
We have the amazing fact companies that are founded to make money, make money and sometimes make money by producing defective products.

ETA:
You got the title wrong, Clayton Moore. This bit of propaganda is called "Origins of Medical Industry Corruption".
You mislead with your replacement title - there is no mention of vaccines in that video.
Starts with homeopaths being described as doctors ! The rest is just usual conspiracy theory stuff, e.g. the AMA and doctors are in a conspiracy to block cheap cancer treatment (that do not actually work!).

From Clayton Moore's 32 questions ignored for 270 days!

Clayton Moore: Cite the studies showing the links between the MMR jab and autism.
First asked 4 March 2013 - 270 days and counting!

Anecdotes are not evidence, Clayton Moore (think about the millions of unreported anecdotes by parents whose children do not have autism!).
A retracted study is not evidence.
Ignoring the evidence that the vaccines have no significant relationship to autism is not evidence.
Irrelevant YouTube videos are not evidence.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/truth-in-media-vaccine-court-and-autism/67463

The 1986 Law also permits the vaccine makers the right to not disclose known risks
to parents or guardians of those being vaccinated. Based on something called the “learned intermediary” doctrine, manufacturers bear no liability for giving, or failing to give, accurate or complete information to those vaccinated.

In exchange for being subject to the vaccine court, families of those injured would be compensated through an administrative process based on a table of presumptive vaccine injuries.

At its outset, 90% of claims were “on table.” But almost 30 years later, things are very different. Today, the vaccine schedule, meaning the list of vaccines offered to children has tripled, but the table of injuries has become much more restrictive, forcing 90% of petitioners into “off-table” litigation. And it gets worse. Because for families who believe that their children have been injured by vaccines, there are enormous roadblocks to overcome when seeking compensation for those injuries.