Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

this psychic claim came up a while ago and i asked then and now again for a source that this occurred in this case

Gabriella Carlizzi was a psychic who claimed to have a connection to a dead priest. She had a website on which she described Meredith's murder in similar terms to the prosecution's original scenario. There are lots of references to her on Google if you are interested. She died of cancer in 2010.

She was mentioned in the 48Hours episode American Girl Italian Nightmare. Part of their report said:

For years, Mignini has followed the dark satanic conspiracy theories of an Italian blogger named Gabriella Carlizzi who feels she knows what happened the night Meredith Kercher was murdered.

"They had decided that to re-enact one of the many rituals in literature that are performed during Halloween," she says.

Carlizzi posted her satanic ritual murder theory on her blog. Mignini later presented it as fact during Rudy Guede's trial.

From Michael Scadron on IA:

In their book, The Monster of Florence, Douglas Preston, an American writer, and Mario Spezi, an Italian journalist, tell how Mignini was drawn to the theories of a crackpot named Gabriella Carlizzi, who ran a conspiracy theory website. Carlizzi believed that a satanic cult known as the School of the Red Rose was behind the Monster of Florence killings and 9/11. After Meredith’s murder, Carlizzi announced on her blog that “[t]he human sacrifice of the student [Meredith Kercher] bears a close connection with the ... Monster of Florence....” She’d later claim that the crime possessed “the characteristics of a ritual culminating in human sacrifice.” It seems the public minister of Perugia was listening.

It's possible there is no documentation of Mignini saying he relied on Carlizzi's counsel. Unfortunately for McMeany, when you are suspected of doing something nutty (like arresting innocent suspects) people tend to look at all the nutty things you ever did, in order to bolster their case against you. Or so I have been told.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Gabriella Carlizzi was a psychic who claimed to have a connection to a dead priest. She had a website on which she described Meredith's murder in similar terms to the prosecution's original scenario. There are lots of references to her on Google if you are interested. She died of cancer in 2010.

She was mentioned in the 48Hours episode American Girl Italian Nightmare. Part of their report said:



From Michael Scadron on IA:



It's possible there is no documentation of Mignini saying he relied on Carlizzi's counsel. Unfortunately for McMeany, when you are suspected of doing something nutty (like arresting innocent suspects) people tend to look at all the nutty things you ever did, in order to bolster their case against you. Or so I have been told.

Never mind Carlizzi.
Mignini consulted a graphologist, who found from Amanda's handwritng that there is evil in her.
It's in Mignini's closing arguments from Massei's trial IIRC.

 

[acbytesla]

Never mind Carlizzi.
Mignini consulted a graphologist, who found from Amanda's handwritng that there is evil in her.
It's in Mignini's closing arguments from Massei's trial IIRC.

Seriously Katody? The man is crazy as a loon.

 

[toto]

Here's the problem;

Remember how long it took to ascertain whether H&Z had pronounced the equivalent of 'innocent' (exonerated) or 'not guilty' (unproven, lack of evidence) after the jury verdict in 2011, and which turned out to he the former?

Hellmann, in his sentencing report, basically declared that no proof of multiple assailants existed, therefore the crimes AK and RS were charged with "did not exist".

This was specifically what the ISC zeroed in on - that Hellmann was WRONG (or rather "illogical") to deny the "evidence" of "multiple assailants"

It's likely that Nencini will have to deal with a not-guilty verdict as well, but he will NOT pronounce AK and RS "innocent" as Hellmann did, rather, that the charges are "not proven" (expect another rambling "sentencing report" next Spring).

I think this might be precisely what the ISC had in mind when they quashed the Hellmann verdict.

This will provide a certain face-saving for the Italian justice system, by maintaining the pretence that the prosecution case was legitimate, that the charges were brought 'in good faith' and on the basis of real evidence.

And it will also, unfortunately, allow the PGP reprobates to argue that AK and RS "got off on a technicality" and continue slandering them.

if the charges are pronounced to be "non proven" then can the PGP still slander or presumably libel them on the internet? Would they not, after a hopeful SC upholding of any non proven verdict have to cease and desist? Obviously they could go on about the Knox slander charges and generally nasty stuff, but they could not go on alleging their guilt? In fact I am wondering if they would have to delete whole chunks of their website, or whether it would be allowed to stand as an historical record? Would A and R be able to sue the True justice and PMF sites if they continued to libel? (This is all of course conditional of verdicts sympathetic to A and R , which of course hangs in the balance for now).

 

[LondonJohn]

if the charges are pronounced to be "non proven" then can the PGP still slander or presumably libel them on the internet? Would they not, after a hopeful SC upholding of any non proven verdict have to cease and desist? Obviously they could go on about the Knox slander charges and generally nasty stuff, but they could not go on alleging their guilt? In fact I am wondering if they would have to delete whole chunks of their website, or whether it would be allowed to stand as an historical record? Would A and R be able to sue the True justice and PMF sites if they continued to libel? (This is all of course conditional of verdicts sympathetic to A and R , which of course hangs in the balance for now).

Technically speaking, the distinction between "not guilty" and "not proven" doesn't exist in Italian criminal justice any longer. In fact, there's no such verdict equating to "not proven" in Italy now.

The courts can only acquit (i.e. not guilty, i.e. considered innocent) or convict (i.e. guilty).

Section 530 of the Code is a clumsy attempt to marry the previous inquisitorial process with the current adversarial-based process. It's basically saying that if there's no evidence of guilt, the court must issue an acquittal (530.1), and additionally if there is evidence, but not sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, then the court must also issue an acquittal (530.2). But those two paragraphs - 530.1 and 530.2 - are not separate types of acquittal. They are merely the two different ways in which a court can correctly reach the single verdict of acquittal.

So the only options to the court are to find for guilt or non-guilt. Hellmann made it perfectly clear that his court's reasoning for the finding of non-guilt was related to 530.1 rather than 530.2. But acquittal is acquittal is acquittal, and the law states (as indeed it should) that all acquittals bestow the presumption of innocence upon the accused.

Therefore, even if the Nencini court acquits, and then explains that it found some indicators of guilt, but not enough to find for guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. a "530.2 acquittal"), Knox and Sollecito should be considered totally innocent of the charges - both legally and ethically. And, subject to SC ratification, any suggestions that Knox or Sollecito were murderers who "got away with it" would constitute potential libel.

 

[katy_did]

Interesting tweets from Mach on the prosecution's closing:

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 17h
Crini accepts both alternstives on time of death, after 23.15 or before 22.30 (but seems to prefer the earlier one)

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 17h
Crini: Do not overestimate importance of timings that are not anchored accurately or cannot be proven

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 17h
Crini: timeline is marginal to the case. All unproven timings to be taken cautiously.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 17h
Crini starts fourth theme: timings. Says they are very vague, except tow truck

And from La Nazione:

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 16h
Processo Meredith, il Pm Crini: "Dai tabulati del cellulare della vittima si colloca il delitto intorno alle22.13" #meredithnazione

"From the victim's cell phone records the murder is placed at around 22:13". Crini seems to agree with Hellmann on time of death.

 

[LondonJohn]

Interesting tweets from Mach on the prosecution's closing:



And from La Nazione:

"From the victim's cell phone records the murder is placed at around 22:13". Crini seems to agree with Hellmann on time of death.

And of course Crini's totally wrong to suggest that the ToD (and timings in general) is only of marginal importance to the case against Knox/Sollecito.

After all, if the court accepts a pre-10.15pm ToD (as indeed it should, based on very very sound scientific evidence and other key items of evidence/testimony), then Curatolo's testimony is immediately called into huge question on that one issue alone, since he claims to have seen Knox and Sollecito around the basketball court more-or-less continuously up to later than 11pm.

Of course, Curatolo's testimony should be considered wholly unreliable for many other reasons, but an earlier ToD means that whatever way you care to treat Curatolo as a witness, he has to be either mistaken or lying.

The prosecution argument is a farce so far, as far as I can tell. What with Crini trying to claim that alleged lack of human interaction on Sollecito's computer somehow adds positive weight to the accusation that he was at the cottage murdering Meredith, it appears that the whole case for guilt is (so far) a badly-constructed house of cards.

It should not take the defence teams long to summon up a sufficient small gust of wind to blow the house down.

 

[LondonJohn]

Not to mention the fact that a pre-10.15pm ToD also renders useless the "earwitness" testimony that the prosecution and the Massei court found so compelling. The fabled "scream of death" cannot have occurred before around 11pm at an absolute minimum, if this testimony is to be believed.

The almost-certain truth, of course, is that this "earwitness" testimony is the product of either a) honest misremembering, b) a real scream that was totally unconnected to the murder of Meredith Kercher, or c) an invention or flat-out lie.

 

[katy_did]

And of course Crini's totally wrong to suggest that the ToD (and timings in general) is only of marginal importance to the case against Knox/Sollecito.

After all, if the court accepts a pre-10.15pm ToD (as indeed it should, based on very very sound scientific evidence and other key items of evidence/testimony), then Curatolo's testimony is immediately called into huge question on that one issue alone, since he claims to have seen Knox and Sollecito around the basketball court more-or-less continuously up to later than 11pm.

Of course, Curatolo's testimony should be considered wholly unreliable for many other reasons, but an earlier ToD means that whatever way you care to treat Curatolo as a witness, he has to be either mistaken or lying.

And of course it calls into question all the 'ear-witnesses'. It'll be interesting to see how Crini deals with that issue since he seems to favour an earlier TOD.

The prosecution argument is a farce so far, as far as I can tell. What with Crini trying to claim that alleged lack of human interaction on Sollecito's computer somehow adds positive weight to the accusation that he was at the cottage murdering Meredith, it appears that the whole case for guilt is (so far) a badly-constructed house of cards.

That was another interesting point, with Nencini apparently interrupting to say that the prosecution didn't ask to interrogate Sollecito (one of Bongiorno's favourite themes) and pointing out that Sollecito's statements before the Gip aren't useable:

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 18h
Nencini notes prosecution did not ask to interrogate Sollecito. Crini cites D'Ambrosio's computer expert report. No interaction before 5am

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 18h
Processo Meredith, la corte dice che le dichiarazioni di Sollecito al Gip non sono utilizzabili

It'd be good to have more context on that.

 

[katy_did]

Not to mention the fact that a pre-10.15pm ToD also renders useless the "earwitness" testimony that the prosecution and the Massei court found so compelling. The fabled "scream of death" cannot have occurred before around 11pm at an absolute minimum, if this testimony is to be believed.

Snap.

 

[Dan O.]

And from La Nazione:
"From the victim's cell phone records the murder is placed at around 22:13". Crini seems to agree with Hellmann on time of death.

Why do they choose that event on the cell Phone as the time of death and not any of the others?

1 November 2007
20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
22:13:19 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.

2 November 2007
00:10:31 Meredith's english phone connects to cell 25622 at Piazza Lupattelli​

The 22:13 time is the one that required no human intervention. Have the Italians been flavoring their wine with lead again?

 

[Kestrel]

The "earwitness" probably heard a high pitched squeal from the tow truck picking up the disabled car. After associating the noise with the murder, her memory reconstructs the noise as a scream.

 

[LondonJohn]

The "earwitness" probably heard a high pitched squeal from the tow truck picking up the disabled car. After associating the noise with the murder, her memory reconstructs the noise as a scream.

Could very well be the case.

What it was NOT was any scream issued by Meredith Kercher as she was attacked, and nor was it any scream issued by Knox at any time.

 

[Kestrel]

The phone connection at 22:13 also occurred via a different cell tower. One that covers that park outside the city walls near where the phones were found the next morning.

 

[acbytesla]

Why do they choose that event on the cell Phone as the time of death and not any of the others?

1 November 2007
20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
22:13:19 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.

2 November 2007
00:10:31 Meredith's english phone connects to cell 25622 at Piazza Lupattelli​

The 22:13 time is the one that required no human intervention. Have the Italians been flavoring their wine with lead again?

Exactly, the 22:13 was an incoming SMS picture message. the 9:58 and 10:00 PM calls are outgoing calls.

 

[katy_did]

Why do they choose that anomaly on the cell Phone as the time of death and not any of the others?

1 November 2007
20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
22:13:19 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.

2 November 2007
00:10:31 Meredith's english phone connects to cell 25622 at Piazza Lupattelli​

Especially when that's the only one which may not have been due to human interaction (though it could have been). Logically I don't see how it's possible to separate the 21:58 and 22:00 calls from the later one: if the 22:13 interaction was linked to the murder then the earlier calls must have been as well, which would place the TOD - or at least the time of the attack - earlier.

 

[acbytesla]

The phone connection at 22:13 also occurred via a different cell tower. One that covers that park outside the city walls near where the phones were found the next morning.

Well the problem with that Kestrel is where the phones were actually found is about as close to the Lupatellii cell tower as the cottage The problem in that whole area is that you are playing peek a boo with the towers. The side of the hill and the thick walls of the city get in the way. A few feet in any direction could make the Strada Vincanale tower better which is 10 times further away.

That is the tower the 10:13 call connected to.

 

[Strozzi]

The "earwitness" probably heard a high pitched squeal from the tow truck picking up the disabled car. After associating the noise with the murder, her memory reconstructs the noise as a scream.

If the "earwitness" had reported what she heard or thought she heard the next day when the murder was discovered, it would certainly be relevant but still not proof that it was the victim. But she came forwards only after a long time. How can anyone believe she heard a real sound, knows what time of night it was, and knows what date it was.

Ever hear a loud squeal or panic-breaking of a car outside your building at night while you are in bed? Weeks or months later, tell me what date it occurred.

What is so disturbing is that the Perugia authorities "assign" a crime to the defendants and then go looking for anything to support that, whether it is true or not.

Just think what heroes the Perugia police would have been if they had recognized that the break-in was real; collected fingerprint, handprint, and DNA evidence and identified Rudy from it; issued an international arrest warrant for him; and extradited him once the Germans caught him riding a German train without a ticket. We would be singing priase for good police work in Perugia. Even Mignini would be a hero!

 

[billyryan]

Nothing yet on the knife or the bra-clasp,is Crini accepting the Conti & Vecchiotti report or is that part of the presentation to come after lunch

 

[Dan O.]

Especially when that's the only one which may not have been due to human interaction (though it could have been). Logically I don't see how it's possible to separate the 21:58 and 22:00 calls from the later one: if the 22:13 interaction was linked to the murder then the earlier calls must have been as well, which would place the TOD - or at least the time of the attack - earlier.

You don't think Meredith could have been relaxing in her bed fiddling with the phone buttons at 21:58 and 22:00 then suddenly Raffaele and Amanda burst into her room and start molesting her then Patrick shows up because Amanda said they should meet and the forth suspect Usi comes in with Patrick then Rudy who just happened to be in the neighborhood breaks in through Filomena's window and stops to take a dump without flushing before replacing Patrick in the murder room and the whole perugia police department shows up with knives from the kitchen except for Mignini who doesn't have a key and thinks the climb into Filomena's window is impossible and starts screaming like a girl because it's unfair then Monica slapps Meredith on the back of the head saying you're not doing it right but this causes three of the kitchen knives to slice into her throat so they all run away together across the gravel drive and up the metal steps in perfect unison which creates such a racket that it can be heard in the apartments across the street and this is what caused the mms message to be received in Meredith's phone at 22:13 and Amanda and Raffaele look at each other and say "****, they just killed Meredith, the bastards.”