Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[GreyFox]

He wasn't put in jail until the appeal trial. When he was arraigned for the 2003 heroin dealing charge he was totally baffled and had no understanding what was happening. He had no memory of the original arrest.

They had to keep from the media.

He performed for whatever reasons. Pleasing people probably was part of it.

Watching the PGP try to back him should become an Olympic sport. That PGP who described his reading a newspaper as studying is just one recent example.

THe appeal is what I'm talking about. The prosecution locked him up so he wouldnt have his drugs. He is a junkie so he will have to get a fix. If he say's what Mignini tells him too , he gets his next fix. If not its detox for toto.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

And Raffaele? I'm more confident every day that Amanda will weather this thing, but how does the future play out for him?

He will probably have to take refuge in a third-world country.

 

[Grinder]

THe appeal is what I'm talking about. The prosecution locked him up so he wouldnt have his drugs. He is a junkie so he will have to get a fix. If he say's what Mignini tells him too , he gets his next fix. If not its detox for toto.

Well I thought the more significant testimony was before and during the first trial. If the strategy was to get him to be more convincing in the appeal trial that didn't work out that well as we all saw.

I think he was incarcerated at that time solely to keep from the media. Imagine an interview with him in the plaza where he could identify people on the bench or maybe telling some other story.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I'm curious, if he was in Italy at the time that the Florence court rules and if they found both him and Amanda guilty would they immediately arrest him? Or do they wait for the Italian Supreme Court? I would imagine that they would arrest him immediately, but everything is so strange about the Italian judicial system, I don't really know how it would play out. If I am Raffaele, I'd try and be in the US when the ruling is made.

I'm guessing they would give him an opportunity to get out of Italy. I don't think they are quite stupid enough to actually want him in custody, but I'm not sure about that.

He has substantial real estate assets that they will certainly take.

 

[Grinder]

I don't see how they can be found not guilty. After 6 years the system can't see that the evidence and witnesses are at best feeble.

I've been on the Curatolo sighting thing since I looked at his actual testimony and he clearly says they were there until after 11:30 but even people here don't seem to care. Why should the Italian courts. No one seems to remember that Massei moved the time up to eleven to fit with the buses taking kids to the discos. Those are the buses that weren't running.

I read something on TOD that supposedly came from the ISC motivation where they said Rudy would lie about the time for his benefit when in the same conversation he admitted being there when she was killed. Let me think. I think I'd lie about being there when she dies before lying about the time of the scream.

Cuki is over on the other side pitching his involvement theory and Cuki doesn't even correct them on the Curatolo times of sightings. People use Massei instead of the transcript of Curatolo, nutty.

I don't think the ISC was concerned about the DNA they wanted tested except perhaps to prove C&V should have.

I wouldn't bet yet. I want to hear the prosecution but if they push for conviction they will most likely get it.

 

[Grinder]

He will probably have to take refuge in a third-world country.

No. I'd leave Italy.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I don't share your view that the current appeal is a foregone conclusion.

I think that the overarching "reasoning" of the SC last time out was based on a fundamental issue related to the dissonance between the findings in Guede's trial process and Hellmann's courts findings. I think that the SC was in effect saying: "Wait a minute, we've got one verdict that says multiple attackers, and we've now got you (Hellmann) saying Knox and Sollecito weren't involved. Let's have a new appeal court look at this properly, and decide once and for all. What's more, you (Hellmann) seem to us to have reached your acquittal verdicts without giving sufficient weight to the prosecution case. So that all needs to be redone as well."

In other words, the way I read it, the SC isn't saying "We think Knox and Sollecito are guilty: now go back and reach that verdict so we can end this thing". I think they are in effect saying "We are in no way confident of rubber-stamping acquittals as things stand. Go back and reach proper verdicts - whether acquittals or convictions."

Now, I think that the SC's reasoning was wrong anyhow, but that's neither here nor there really. What I DO think, though, is that Nencini's court is operating autonomously, and that it will reach what it thinks is the correct verdicts based on the totality of the evidence (or non-evidence).

If the defence closing arguments are as strong as they ought to be, then my view - as I said before - is that the court should have little logical option but to acquit. If it convicts under such circumstances, I'll be prepared to consider the sort of scenario you're outlining. But not unless or until that happens.

Let's see................

The Supreme Court had no logical option but to accept Hellmann, so they simply bypassed logic and came up with a report that is flat-out Kafkaesque. It makes Massei look good by comparison.

I don't see any foregone conclusions. They played two hole cards and busted on both of them. That doesn't make it any easier to convict, and it might change their game plan, but I wouldn't count on it.

They might acquit on lack of proof rather than outright innocence, and then come up with a report where they endorse the prosecution's claims but admit they are unproven. They might convict on some kind of accessory charge that would require no further custodial sentence. Or they might flat out convict, which is what I think is most likely.

I do not agree that Nencini's court is operating autonomously. I think he is a puppet.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm guessing they would give him an opportunity to get out of Italy. I don't think they are quite stupid enough to actually want him in custody, but I'm not sure about that.

He has substantial real estate assets that they will certainly take.

He does?? Or are they his parents??

 

[Grinder]

The Supreme Court had no logical option but to accept Hellmann, so they simply bypassed logic and came up with a report that is flat-out Kafkaesque. It makes Massei look good by comparison.

I don't see any foregone conclusions. They played two hole cards and busted on both of them. That doesn't make it any easier to convict, and it might change their game plan, but I wouldn't count on it.

They might acquit on lack of proof rather than outright innocence, and then come up with a report where they endorse the prosecution's claims but admit they are unproven. They might convict on some kind of accessory charge that would require no further custodial sentence. Or they might flat out convict, which is what I think is most likely.

I do not agree that Nencini's court is operating autonomously. I think he is a puppet.

Pretty much how I feel. I would add that it really seems to be an issue with DNA. Not the DNA in the trial but the DNA in the Italians. It's like they all have left-handed brains. I believe Mach may be giving us an insight into how they think.

I truly can't believe that a people could take the witnesses in this case seriously.

 

[Grinder]

He does?? Or are they his parents??

He does from his mother.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't see how they can be found not guilty. After 6 years the system can't see that the evidence and witnesses are at best feeble.

I've been on the Curatolo sighting thing since I looked at his actual testimony and he clearly says they were there until after 11:30 but even people here don't seem to care. Why should the Italian courts. No one seems to remember that Massei moved the time up to eleven to fit with the buses taking kids to the discos. Those are the buses that weren't running.

I read something on TOD that supposedly came from the ISC motivation where they said Rudy would lie about the time for his benefit when in the same conversation he admitted being there when she was killed. Let me think. I think I'd lie about being there when she dies before lying about the time of the scream.

Cuki is over on the other side pitching his involvement theory and Cuki doesn't even correct them on the Curatolo times of sightings. People use Massei instead of the transcript of Curatolo, nutty.

I don't think the ISC was concerned about the DNA they wanted tested except perhaps to prove C&V should have.

I wouldn't bet yet. I want to hear the prosecution but if they push for conviction they will most likely get it.

There is nothing believable about Curatolo, he's kind of like the cooking knife for me. He just doesn't make sense. The timing, the logic, memory, drugs, the buses, the Halloween masks, when he came forward. This is the prosecution's star witness??? There is a reason that Hellmann kicked him out of his courtroom and that is because Toto is ridiculous.

 

[xinonix]

It's not only 2 people who are on trial now, there is also the idea that a psychic can help the police solve a crime, which is on trial.
If AK+RS are acquitted again, this could be seen as a green light for George Clooney to resume work on the movie he was planning to make about the Monster Of Florence.
Skeptics believe that anyone who believes in psychic abilities to be at least a little crazy.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Pretty much how I feel. I would add that it really seems to be an issue with DNA. Not the DNA in the trial but the DNA in the Italians. It's like they all have left-handed brains. I believe Mach may be giving us an insight into how they think.

The insight he brings is that this is purely a political contest. He is defending the political faction he supports. If they're wrong about this, how much else might they be wrong about? He won't go there. His position is that they are categorically right about everything. He actually used the term "dichotomy" without the slightest hint of introspection.

I have mentioned that I saw this in NYC in the 80s, with people who deified Daniel Ortega. They flatly denied the mounting evidence that the Sandanistas were a bunch of thugs, disputing every claim as unfounded and attacking its source with the same vernacular Machiavelli uses to describe Hellmann. I was living in Park Slope, and I got a dose of these idiots several times. They were fanatics of the worst kind, impervious to fact or reason.

Of course, they were pitted against the Somocistas and Ollie North, as opposed to a couple of innocent young people who stumbled across a crime scene. There's that difference.

 

[Grinder]

It's not only 2 people who are on trial now, there is also the idea that a psychic can help the police solve a crime, which is on trial.
If AK+RS are acquitted again, this could be seen as a green light for George Clooney to resume work on the movie he was planning to make about the Monster Of Florence.
Skeptics believe that anyone who believes in psychic abilities to be at least a little crazy.

this psychic claim came up a while ago and i asked then and now again for a source that this occurred in this case

 

[Supernaut]

I agree, LJ. It looks like Cassazione told Assizes, "Show us that the crime was committed that way," but my interpretation has been that Cassazione's instructions were, "See if you can show us that the crime was committed that way."

Here's the problem;

Remember how long it took to ascertain whether H&Z had pronounced the equivalent of 'innocent' (exonerated) or 'not guilty' (unproven, lack of evidence) after the jury verdict in 2011, and which turned out to he the former?

Hellmann, in his sentencing report, basically declared that no proof of multiple assailants existed, therefore the crimes AK and RS were charged with "did not exist".

This was specifically what the ISC zeroed in on - that Hellmann was WRONG (or rather "illogical") to deny the "evidence" of "multiple assailants"

It's likely that Nencini will have to deal with a not-guilty verdict as well, but he will NOT pronounce AK and RS "innocent" as Hellmann did, rather, that the charges are "not proven" (expect another rambling "sentencing report" next Spring).

I think this might be precisely what the ISC had in mind when they quashed the Hellmann verdict.

This will provide a certain face-saving for the Italian justice system, by maintaining the pretence that the prosecution case was legitimate, that the charges were brought 'in good faith' and on the basis of real evidence.

And it will also, unfortunately, allow the PGP reprobates to argue that AK and RS "got off on a technicality" and continue slandering them.

 

[Strozzi]

Language is desperate?

You know something? I won't.

Machiavelli, I appreciate how well you communicate in English. Excellent English. If you want to occasionally include a few words of Italian to clarify a word or include a link to an Italian article or source, that's fine with me.

I am just sorry a person of your sharp argumentative skills bought into the false perceptions and false evidence early on and must see it through.

Are you aligned with any factions in the "civil war"?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Curatolo's testimony

I don't see how they can be found not guilty. After 6 years the system can't see that the evidence and witnesses are at best feeble.

I've been on the Curatolo sighting thing since I looked at his actual testimony and he clearly says they were there until after 11:30 but even people here don't seem to care.

Actually, I was quite surprised to see that in his testimony. I was led to believe that he said that they were not there the whole time. With respect to the Florence trial and the CSC, there is one paragraph in its motivations report that really concerns me, the one that RoseMontague quoted a long time ago. It seemed to me that the CSC was saying that the Florence court could claim that Guede had the most culpability, but that all three were guilty.

 

[acbytesla]

Actually, I was quite surprised to see that in his testimony. I was led to believe that he said that they were not there the whole time. With respect to the Florence trial and the CSC, there is one paragraph in its motivations report that really concerns me, the one that RoseMontague quoted a long time ago. It seemed to me that the CSC was saying that the Florence court could claim that Guede had the most culpability, but that all three were guilty.

I don't know if you can read too much into what the ISC ruled. What I mean by that is I'm not sure if the lower courts care that much about the details of the ISC ruling. These are individuals judges at these courts. They have minds of their own.

According to the World Bank:
Within the group of 23 high income countries considered in the Rule of Law Index, Italy again ranked at or near the bottom in virtually every indicator. Despite giving Italy praise for relatively strong judicial independence, the World Justice Project report noted in particular that corruption within the judiciary and impunity of government officials both constitute significant institutional weaknesses. Lack of government accountability and delays in judicial decisions were also noted as sources of concern.

 

[RandyN]

I'm curious, if he was in Italy at the time that the Florence court rules and if they found both him and Amanda guilty would they immediately arrest him? Or do they wait for the Italian Supreme Court? I would imagine that they would arrest him immediately, but everything is so strange about the Italian judicial system, I don't really know how it would play out. If I am Raffaele, I'd try and be in the US when the ruling is made.

Actually someplace without an extradition treaty with Italy would be a better place for Raffaele until this get sorted out.

A Kanox extradition hearing here in good ole US of A will be enough to sort out this rat infested mess Italy likes to call justice. Extradition will never happen. RS OTOH would have no such protections in USA. He would simply be rounded up and returned.

I would head back to a well researched site that probably has Spanish as the native tongue...or perhaps Russian... I think the refusal to return Knox would finally get the investigative ball rolling to get to the bottom of this disaster....not all that complicated actually...in fact there is so much ludicrous evidence against the Italians that I can see this having a long term effect on the world view of Italy and Italians in general. No one really wants to deal with such blatantly foolish and corrupt persons.

Evil is easy enough to find in the world population...these Italians take that to a whole new level. And please spare me the lectures about "oh its not just Italy...this is a common world wide problem". Perhaps a common problem that some bad prosecutions get passed off...but rarely does it fool almost every single member of a country...like say Italy? Third world people are usually smarter ...common sense wise anyway. Italy has none of that apparently. They seem more than happy to make complete fools of themselves...all while protesting loudly that they are correct and it is the whole world view that is wrong...it is like Yummi calling someone intellectually dishonest...the irony just drips off the thought.

 

[acbytesla]

Actually someplace without an extradition treaty with Italy would be a better place for Raffaele until this get sorted out.

A Kanox extradition hearing here in good ole US of A will be enough to sort out this rat infested mess Italy likes to call justice. Extradition will never happen. RS OTOH would have no such protections in USA. He would simply be rounded up and returned.

I would head back to a well researched site that probably has Spanish as the native tongue...or perhaps Russian... I think the refusal to return Knox would finally get the investigative ball rolling to get to the bottom of this disaster....not all that complicated actually...in fact there is so much ludicrous evidence against the Italians that I can see this having a long term effect on the world view of Italy and Italians in general. No one really wants to deal with such blatantly foolish and corrupt persons.

Evil is easy enough to find in the world population...these Italians take that to a whole new level. And please spare me the lectures about "oh its not just Italy...this is a common world wide problem". Perhaps a common problem that some bad prosecutions get passed off...but rarely does it fool almost every single member of a country...like say Italy? Third world people are usually smarter ...common sense wise anyway. Italy has none of that apparently. They seem more than happy to make complete fools of themselves...all while protesting loudly that they are correct and it is the whole world view that is wrong...it is like Yummi calling someone intellectually dishonest...the irony just drips off the thought.

It isn't just Italy, but that doesn't matter. You address one problem at a time and this is the one on in front of us. Italy does have systemic judicial problems. For that, there is no doubt. They have also continuously screwed the pooch on this case in ways that are inexcusable. I only hesitate to call their entire nation out. Even though all their citizens are responsible for the type of government and judiciary that they have.

Reform is something Italy is in desperate need, but frankly, the task at hand is to help Amanda and Raffaele, and I'm not sure it benefits them to attack everyone in Italy.