Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

The magistrate Giuliano Mignini will support the reasons for the prosecution, producing a series of charges

Some kind of witch trial reconstruction theater.

http://translate.google.com/transla...&lr=lang_it&safe=images&tbs=qdr:d,lr:lang_1it

Wow. Just wow.

You'd think Mignini would want to steer clear of this stuff given his recent tiff in the press over "Satanic rituals" being his motive for both the Narducci and Kercher trials....

Sometimes you just cannot make up stuff like this. No one would believe you.....

 

[christianahannah]

http://translate.google.com/transla...&lr=lang_it&safe=images&tbs=qdr:d,lr:lang_1it

Migi seems to be out an about a lot lately

I think this is a video which corresponds to one of the paragraphs of the blog - 40+ minutes). Interesting. Mentions the Kercher case but not much (well from what I can pick up which is decidedly lacking).

http://youtu.be/7umCRuvfLA0

 

[yimyammer]

There is a pan of the drawer in the video of November 16th. All of the knives are there except of course that huge kitchen knife.

(and only 5 of the 6 steak knives can be seen but don't tell anyone)

does it confirm mach's contention that there were only butter knives and the one removed and tested?

 

[Grinder]

This whole witch things says more to me about the Italian culture than Mignini.

 

[yimyammer]

Heroin (or diamorphine) is a form of morphine, although it's stronger, faster acting and has a much greater euphoric effect.

One of the main reasons people don't like taking morphine is because it leaves them feeling sleepy and confused and visual hallucinations are not uncommon - the one thing it definitely doesn't allow is precise memories

It's only in this case that they can argue that cannabis turns you into a violent killer - and that heroin makes you a reliable witness with precise memories. You just couldn't make it up.

lol!

 

[yimyammer]

The picture that is emerging is that the prosecution is incompetent. This could be by design because it's not a crime simply to be incompetent.

Curatolo comes across as being highly suggestible. He doesn't know anything in the days immediately after. But with the police suggesting that he might have seen something and reinforced by his reconstruction over the next months what he might have seen, he now believes that he did see the pair on the court that night.

The prosecution is disparate to support their case so they use Curatolo without first digging into the contradictions to insure that the information is accurate. Supporters of Curatolo skip over the inconsistencies and try to use the apparent consistencies to prop him up. Like seeing the white suits and ambulance the next day. This is something that Curatolo cannot see from his bench but would be easily viewed in the papers he was reading in the following weeks. Supporters of Curatolo then manufacturer that he saw the ambulance and white suits from the carpark. It's strange that Curatolo never provides this detail. It's one of the points that a competent investigation would have clarified.

I suspect if Curatolo was testifying he saw AK/Raf 10 miles away from the flat at the time of the crime, giving them an alibi, I have no doubt he would have been laughed out of the courtroom by Mignin, the judges, etc and this conversation would have a decidedly different tone. I'd say Curatolo testimony is as reliable (actually less) than the guy claiming Rudy told him (or overheard) what actually happened while they were in jail.

 

[Grinder]

I suspect if Curatolo was testifying he saw AK/Raf 10 miles away from the flat at the time of the crime, giving them an alibi, I have no doubt he would have been laughed out of the courtroom by Mignin, the judges, etc and this conversation would have a decidedly different tone. I'd say Curatolo testimony is as reliable (actually less) than the guy claiming Rudy told him (or overheard) what actually happened while they were in jail.

If the kids had found a witness that had been interviewed by the police the week of the murder and at that time said he had seen nothing came forward month later and said he was sure he had seen them or their shadows inside Raf's apartment from 10 to 11:30, the PGP would be screaming about making water run uphill.

That would be without this guy saying that the college people were running around with masks on and were asking people for candy.

It is totally mind-boggling that the PGP don't just drop Curatolo. He clearly gives the kids an alibi from 9:30 to near midnight. Between his frequent observing of them and the other issues like the broken down car and the tow truck it would be nearly impossible for them to have moved back and forth to the cottage.

So apparently the kids hung out until after 11:30 and then ran down and killed Meredith and then ran out so that Nara could hear them...really there is no way to put together the time line.

Sad.

 

[JREF2010]

If the kids had found a witness that had been interviewed by the police the week of the murder and at that time said he had seen nothing came forward month later and said he was sure he had seen them or their shadows inside Raf's apartment from 10 to 11:30, the PGP would be screaming about making water run uphill.

That would be without this guy saying that the college people were running around with masks on and were asking people for candy.

It is totally mind-boggling that the PGP don't just drop Curatolo. He clearly gives the kids an alibi from 9:30 to near midnight. Between his frequent observing of them and the other issues like the broken down car and the tow truck it would be nearly impossible for them to have moved back and forth to the cottage.

So apparently the kids hung out until after 11:30 and then ran down and killed Meredith and then ran out so that Nara could hear them...really there is no way to put together the time line.

Sad.

Mignini doesn't think this hard.

 

[Dan O.]

does it confirm mach's contention that there were only butter knives and the one removed and tested?

The blue handled knives are a cross between a table knife and a steak knife. It's somewhat difficult to see in the video but they have rounded tips and a serrated edge.

Now, if there were a Master Butter Knife in the collection it would make a formidable weapon. But alas, such is not on the inventory list.

 

[charlatan]

It is totally mind-boggling that the PGP don't just drop Curatolo. He clearly gives the kids an alibi from 9:30 to near midnight. Between his frequent observing of them and the other issues like the broken down car and the tow truck it would be nearly impossible for them to have moved back and forth to the cottage.

So apparently the kids hung out until after 11:30 and then ran down and killed Meredith and then ran out so that Nara could hear them...really there is no way to put together the time line.

Sad.

Well, exactly. And the person presently mounting a spirited defense of Curatolo entered this very discussion at JREF with claims that an earlier ToD is more likely and Toto's testimony doesn't matter. Mind-boggling indeed, unless of course hurling as much crap as possible at the wall is part of some cynical strategy designed to obfuscate the truth. Perish the thought!

 

[Strozzi]

.

It is totally mind-boggling that the PGP don't just drop Curatolo. He clearly gives the kids an alibi from 9:30 to near midnight. Between his frequent observing of them and the other issues like the broken down car and the tow truck it would be nearly impossible for them to have moved back and forth to the cottage.

So apparently the kids hung out until after 11:30 and then ran down and killed Meredith and then ran out so that Nara could hear them...really there is no way to put together the time line.

Sad.

It appears that under the Italian system the prosecutor must present every claim and every so-called witness to the court if it is adverse to the accused, no matter how far-fetched. For if the prosecutor uses his own rational thinking to decide if a witness is plausible, the prosecutor would be prejudging a witness and fail in his responsibility to present that witness' derogatory testimony. Now, on the other hand, if the witness were to be prepared to say something exculpatory about the accused, then the prosecutor would avoid it, hide it, or threaten the witness with calunia for implying the police or prosecutor got something wrong.

 

[acbytesla]

If the kids had found a witness that had been interviewed by the police the week of the murder and at that time said he had seen nothing came forward month later and said he was sure he had seen them or their shadows inside Raf's apartment from 10 to 11:30, the PGP would be screaming about making water run uphill.

That would be without this guy saying that the college people were running around with masks on and were asking people for candy.

It is totally mind-boggling that the PGP don't just drop Curatolo. He clearly gives the kids an alibi from 9:30 to near midnight. Between his frequent observing of them and the other issues like the broken down car and the tow truck it would be nearly impossible for them to have moved back and forth to the cottage.

So apparently the kids hung out until after 11:30 and then ran down and killed Meredith and then ran out so that Nara could hear them...really there is no way to put together the time line.

Sad.

On this we agree entirely. There is nothing about Curatolo that is credible. He is the prosecution's so called "super witness" and in so many ways, his testimony is the worst of the witnesses. He remembers the buses and all the kids in Halloween costumes, yet he remembers it as the day before the "day of the Martians" He's conflating these events clearly. The PGP argue that his conflation is about Halloween and PIP argue that it is about the day of Martians.

I'm sure that Toto probably saw a couple arguing in the piazza about something. Well, I'm not really sure, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I just don't think he has a clue what day it actually was. This guy doesn't have a job, or a family. Days and dates are irrelevant to him. Like most junkies, life is about getting from one fix to the next. Events and incidents just meld together for him.

But I don't think he knows the faces of the young couple. They may have looked similar to Amanda and Raffaele, but he would have no reason to try and remember their faces. Later he sees pictures of Amanda and Raffaele in the newspaper and he convinces himself that they are that couple, and voila, you have a story. He may have been a bit unsure but after he told the stories a few times, that is what Toto remembered.

Either this or he was coached.

 

[Bill Williams]

On this we agree entirely. There is nothing about Curatolo that is credible. He is the prosecution's so called "super witness" and in so many ways, his testimony is the worst of the witnesses. He remembers the buses and all the kids in Halloween costumes, yet he remembers it as the day before the "day of the Martians" He's conflating these events clearly. The PGP argue that his conflation is about Halloween and PIP argue that it is about the day of Martians.

I'm sure that Toto probably saw a couple arguing in the piazza about something. Well, I'm not really sure, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I just don't think he has a clue what day it actually was. This guy doesn't have a job, or a family. Days and dates are irrelevant to him. Like most junkies, life is about getting from one fix to the next. Events and incidents just meld together for him.

But I don't think he knows the faces of the young couple. They may have looked similar to Amanda and Raffaele, but he would have no reason to try and remember their faces. Later he sees pictures of Amanda and Raffaele in the newspaper and he convinces himself that they are that couple, and voila, you have a story. He may have been a bit unsure but after he told the stories a few times, that is what Toto remembered.

Either this or he was coached.

NancyS has the last word on this.

The Mignini-Comodi prosecution team showed hutzpah bringing him to court, as an addict and dealer, all the while claiming marijuana use made Sollecito and Knox homicidally crazy.

Then they had the gall to play the pity card about him.

It's infinitely worse that Massei fell for it, and galactically bizarre that the ISC thinks his testimony needs review.

 

[yimyammer]

Hiya yimyyammer!
Here are Raff's kitchen knives

**snipped**

TY sir

 

[Strozzi]

On this we agree entirely. There is nothing about Curatolo that is credible. He is the prosecution's so called "super witness" and in so many ways, his testimony is the worst of the witnesses. He remembers the buses and all the kids in Halloween costumes, yet he remembers it as the day before the "day of the Martians" He's conflating these events clearly. The PGP argue that his conflation is about Halloween and PIP argue that it is about the day of Martians.

I'm sure that Toto probably saw a couple arguing in the piazza about something. Well, I'm not really sure, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I just don't think he has a clue what day it actually was. This guy doesn't have a job, or a family. Days and dates are irrelevant to him. Like most junkies, life is about getting from one fix to the next. Events and incidents just meld together for him.

But I don't think he knows the faces of the young couple. They may have looked similar to Amanda and Raffaele, but he would have no reason to try and remember their faces. Later he sees pictures of Amanda and Raffaele in the newspaper and he convinces himself that they are that couple, and voila, you have a story. He may have been a bit unsure but after he told the stories a few times, that is what Toto remembered.

Either this or he was coached.

I read somewhere that as Toto was kicked off the witness stand by Helman, Comodi at the prosecution table was overheard blurting out something angry about Toto not having being better prepped. If they had worked more closely with him, I am sure he would have testified that he saw the two defendants the night after Holloween. He would have remembered that it was a quiet, somber evening and that he, Toto, lit a candle on his bench for All Saints.

 

[yimyammer]

If the kids had found a witness that had been interviewed by the police the week of the murder and at that time said he had seen nothing came forward month later and said he was sure he had seen them or their shadows inside Raf's apartment from 10 to 11:30, the PGP would be screaming about making water run uphill.

That would be without this guy saying that the college people were running around with masks on and were asking people for candy.

It is totally mind-boggling that the PGP don't just drop Curatolo. He clearly gives the kids an alibi from 9:30 to near midnight. Between his frequent observing of them and the other issues like the broken down car and the tow truck it would be nearly impossible for them to have moved back and forth to the cottage.

So apparently the kids hung out until after 11:30 and then ran down and killed Meredith and then ran out so that Nara could hear them...really there is no way to put together the time line.

Sad.

I'm with you bud, I'm not impressed by any of the eye and ear witnesses from either side

Is there an irrefutable source available that confirms Curatolo initially told the police he saw nothing and a week later changed his story?

 

[yimyammer]

The blue handled knives are a cross between a table knife and a steak knife. It's somewhat difficult to see in the video but they have rounded tips and a serrated edge.

Now, if there were a Master Butter Knife in the collection it would make a formidable weapon. But alas, such is not on the inventory list.

thx, seems like the knife sets I've seen only have one small butter knife, maybe its different in Europe since bread is so commonly eaten there

 

[Strozzi]

Hiya yimyyammer!
Here are Raff's kitchen knives,
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img818/590/56h8.jpg[/qimg]
+
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img89/7999/6t9s.jpg[/qimg]

The knife in the far right section of Raffaele's cutlery tray has a serrated blade that looks to be about 9" long. Add a few inches for the handle and the blade plus handle might be 13" to 14" long.

That serrated blade could do some real damage to flesh. It may not be Finzi's personal preference over the carving knife with the 8" blade, but the 13+ inch serrated knife should have also been collected if the criteria allowed for the collection of more than one knife for testing, which is what I would have done if I were testing probable murder weapons and not trying to just assign a knife to a suspect.

Finzi testified in court that the reason he collected the one knife was because it looked clean. He later addes "police intuition". He did not say he collected it on the basis of how it compared to other knifes in the drawer.

 

[Samson]

The knife in the far right section of Raffaele's cutlery tray has a serrated blade that looks to be about 9" long. Add a few inches for the handle and the blade plus handle might be 13" to 14" long.

That serrated blade could do some real damage to flesh. It may not be Finzi's personal preference over the carving knife with the 8" blade, but the 13+ inch serrated knife should have also been collected if the criteria allowed for the collection of more than one knife for testing, which is what I would have done if I were testing probable murder weapons and not trying to just assign a knife to a suspect.

Finzi testified in court that the reason he collected the one knife was because it looked clean. He later addes "police intuition". He did not say he collected it on the basis of how it compared to other knifes in the drawer.

This is an interesting proposition, because simply knives look clean in any drawer I have EVER seen.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>But I don't think he knows the faces of the young couple. They may have looked similar to Amanda and Raffaele, but he would have no reason to try and remember their faces. Later he sees pictures of Amanda and Raffaele in the newspaper and he convinces himself that they are that couple, and voila, you have a story. He may have been a bit unsure but after he told the stories a few times, that is what Toto remembered.

Either this or he was coached.

This is key. Once a witness has been reading about suspects and seeing their pictures in the papers for weeks or months, his testimony becomes worthless, because he is prejudiced. The only way for Curatolo's claims to have even bordered on being objective would have been for him to come forward immediately and then pick the suspects out of line-ups.