GreyFox
Critical Thinker
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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case
- Thread starter Bill Williams
- Start date
- Status
Charlie Wilkes
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You're missing something here, Grinder.
It's easy to get the impression, from reading the news, that almost any given person might commit any given murder.
Nobody saw this one coming:
Mom kills family
"[O]fficials at the nearby elementary school where her children attended say she was a model volunteer, and family and friends say they saw no outward problems."
People read this and think, if crime is this random, who knows what anyone might do? Why wouldn't a college girl leave her roommate naked in a pool of blood?
But this is a simplistic view. In fact, there is a strong correlation between certain types of crimes and certain types of offenders. Homicides can be broken down into categories. The one cited above is maternal filicide, which is rare but does happen and is sometimes perpetrated by women who seem outwardly normal.
Other categories include sexual homicide (rare), criminal enterprise (less rare) and personal cause (common, with filicide as a sub-category).
What happened to Meredith was a hybrid criminal enterprise/sexual homicide. Amanda Knox is, indeed, a deeply implausible suspect for this crime. Guede, a young male with no close personal relationships, no direction in life, and a history of burglary, is a good fit.
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Methos
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RWVBWL
Master Poster
Wow!
Thanks for the info RoseMontague and the link Methos!
Thanks for the info RoseMontague and the link Methos!
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I second that.
Also, arghhh. Pdfs in original Italian ~~ hard to feed those into that translator machines.
GreyFox
Critical Thinker
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Something smells
Why is it there is always a foul wind in the air when Comodi's involved ? Who's left from the prosecutions side that hasn't gotten in trouble since this case started.
For those that support circumstantial evidence as a reason to convict without any hardcore proof I would say that a circumstancial case exist that proves without a doubt that the PLE is corrupt from head to toe.
Somehow I get the feeling her and theDevil oops Mangina errrrr Mingini himself will trump up a reason how Knox is responsible for this too.
Why is it there is always a foul wind in the air when Comodi's involved ? Who's left from the prosecutions side that hasn't gotten in trouble since this case started.
For those that support circumstantial evidence as a reason to convict without any hardcore proof I would say that a circumstancial case exist that proves without a doubt that the PLE is corrupt from head to toe.
Somehow I get the feeling her and the
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Methos
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They'll sit it out, on Dec 6th 2013 the court will set a new date, sometime in 2014, after the Supreme Court demanded conviction for Knox and Sollecito is announced on Jan 10th, 2014, afterwards it's up to Knox and Sollecito to pay that bill and Comodi is cleared... Piece of cake...
I am afraid you have developed a deep understanding of Italy's judicial system. Sadly, right on the mark!
Methos
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Hi, long time no read, how are you? As we say here in Germany "Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt" (Hope is the last to die) but I think this case (if ever) will not be solved (well, it has been) in Italy. I think Knox and Sollecito will take it to the European Courts but I won't bet on the outcome there...I am afraid you have developed a deep understanding of Italy's judicial system. Sadly, right on the mark!
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Once again, you are correct! However, it will take years and remarkable financial resources to finish the job. I see no signs of the Italian court correcting their course. Perhaps the 'Costa Concordia' was an omen, symbolically with the same pilot at the helm.
An attitude wrapped into some Faustian philosophy that prefers to follow an ancient Greek tragedy's penchant for self-destruction over self-preservation.
Very strange coming from the cradle of the Renaissance. Alles Beste!
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
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Machiavelli - since you are close to the situation, can you provide a list of the criminal charges currently facing those involved in the police and prosecution side of the Kercher murder case?
I hear Maneula Comodi is now in trouble for that cartoon played in court. Please enlighten us.
I hear Maneula Comodi is now in trouble for that cartoon played in court. Please enlighten us.
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Grinder
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Still not a defense. "Stop looking at me I don't fit the profile, move on."
Basically meaningless in any single case to point at statistics. Check with Thoughtful on that.
Call it a personal cause and that gives Rudi the doesn't fit role.
Grinder
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Volturno.
Do you really mean you don't support circumstantial evidence cases?
Hardcore proof is almost only circumstantial with maybe the exception of video or in some cases eyewitnesses.
Charlie Wilkes
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No, it's not a defense. It's merely one more piece of information that fits what really happened, instead of the prosecution's fantasy.
Grinder
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If the Curatolo interview has been translated please someone let me know. I've started the tedious job but it's only Google.
PRESIDENT - Public Ministry may examine .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI
QUESTION - Mr. Curatolo , she plays a life of ...
ANSWER - I live on the street.
QUESTION - In the area east of essentially square Grimana ?
ANSWER - A square Grimana .
QUESTION - Well, she is always there more or less ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Go to sleep somewhere?
ANSWER - Piazza Grimana Corso Garibaldi , however, is that
the area where I live .
APPLICATION - The area is . Go to sleep somewhere?
Where he goes when he sleeps ?
ANSWER - I usually sleep in the square Grimana , then after ...
QUESTION - He sleeps on a bench ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - How long she is , gravity, lives there in
Piazza Grimana ?
ANSWER - Eight or nine years.
QUESTION - I want her to remember what happened ,
she remembers the murder of Meredith ?
ANSWER - Yes, I have read about in magazines.
QUESTION - when you ... she was in Piazza Grimana
when the police arrived ?
ANSWER - At that time , yes. I was in Piazza Grimana .
QUESTION - Do you remember what he did , what he saw
previous evening ?
ANSWER - First of all I want to clarify one thing, that
I confirm that what is a conscientious , that is part of
myself, I do not like neither advantage nor life
of others or make it bad. However, that evening, in
that time I was reading about a square Grimana
bench a magazine L'Espresso .
QUESTION - What time was it ?
ANSWER - At about half past nine , ten.
QUESTION - What's Next?
ANSWER - I was on the bench to read the articles that
I was interested Espresso , occasionally smoked a
cigarette , staccavo reading and looked at the people who
was at or near Piazza Grimana , above. there were
the end of the basketball court two boys, they looked like two
boyfriends who were to discuss a little ' animatedly
between them.
QUESTION - Where were these guys exactly?
ANSWER - In round at the basketball court , under a street lamp,
where you throw the ball in the basket .
QUESTION - What were they doing as well as discuss ?
ANSWER - They talked to each other like two lovers , each
then one got up and went on the way , where is
the railing to look under . There were other people
however, that was a little ' mess, was a period of
party.
QUESTION - Do you remember what time it was when you saw them ?
ANSWER - I'll I said , I was on the bench to the half-past nine , ten o'clock, I was up to at midnight there. QUESTION - And these two boys when he saw them ? ANSWER - Up to before midnight that I was a bit ' tired of reading, I had lit a cigarette , I look always people passing , the movement that is important to us Piazza Grimana and then after I have not seen again. QUESTION - So you saw them just before midnight and ... ANSWER - The last time yes . QUESTION - then did not see them anymore? ANSWER - No. QUESTION - How long has observed them ? ANSWER - Let's say that every time you read the staccavo newspaper , I have smoked three or four cigarettes so . QUESTION - What were these guys clothes ? ANSWER - On the color a bit ' dark . QUESTION - We can describe them as they were physically ? ANSWER - They were not so high , a little ' bassini , seemed pure sympathetic inter alia . QUESTION - Light Brown, Dark Blonde ? Excuse me Mr. Curatolo , sees them in this courtroom these guys ? ANSWER - Yes QUESTION - Who are they? PRESIDENT - Li may indicate ? ANSWER - I'm her and him. But I knew them before , it is not I saw them only that evening, previously ...It is recognized that the witness indicates that the defendants are in
classroom , that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - So you will see little
before midnight. Then he does, he falls asleep ?
ANSWER - No, after I smoke a cigarette and then I walk away .
QUESTION - What time is gone from the area ?
ANSWER - Shortly before midnight.
QUESTION - And then when he's gone on there were no more ?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - So you always saw them just before
midnight he say?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Then where did he go to sleep?
ANSWER - I went to the park.
APPLICATION - The lawn ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - I mean ?
ANSWER - At the park .
QUESTION - What time do you wake up?
ANSWER - About nine o'clock . Half past eight , nine , as well .
QUESTION - Then what did he do?
ANSWER - I went again to the streets.
QUESTION - In Piazza Grimana ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - What was there that morning?
ANSWER - I went to grab a cappuccino at the bar , then
I sat on the bench , I smoked a
cigarette every now and then some guy came
knew, so some friends , chat , however,
There was a strange thing because there was a movement of
Police came and went . We were in the square until
to around one and a half , the two , as well , in fact I was
even more, just arrived Carabinieri
ask if we had seen or heard something
something. I said because I had not heard ... to
part to see the guys who were to entertain the
evening I had not seen anything serious . We were a bit '
there, and there was this going of Police, we
overlooking below and we saw people
dressed in white , Police, Carabinieri, a mess of
people there down below .
QUESTION - Downstairs where? In what area ?
ANSWER - Near a house near the entrance of a house
were .
QUESTION - Via Della Pergola?
ANSWER - Yes
APPLICATION - The house she saw then in newspapers, photo?
ANSWER - Yes, yes .
QUESTION - is the house where the crime took place ?
ANSWER - Yes , at least the paper says so .
QUESTION - So you see these people , he goes to sleep
in the park, wakes up in the morning at nine , remains in
square area Grimana , then to one and a half , the two
at some point begins a bustle of Police ?
PRESIDENT - Public Ministry may examine .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI
QUESTION - Mr. Curatolo , she plays a life of ...
ANSWER - I live on the street.
QUESTION - In the area east of essentially square Grimana ?
ANSWER - A square Grimana .
QUESTION - Well, she is always there more or less ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Go to sleep somewhere?
ANSWER - Piazza Grimana Corso Garibaldi , however, is that
the area where I live .
APPLICATION - The area is . Go to sleep somewhere?
Where he goes when he sleeps ?
ANSWER - I usually sleep in the square Grimana , then after ...
QUESTION - He sleeps on a bench ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - How long she is , gravity, lives there in
Piazza Grimana ?
ANSWER - Eight or nine years.
QUESTION - I want her to remember what happened ,
she remembers the murder of Meredith ?
ANSWER - Yes, I have read about in magazines.
QUESTION - when you ... she was in Piazza Grimana
when the police arrived ?
ANSWER - At that time , yes. I was in Piazza Grimana .
QUESTION - Do you remember what he did , what he saw
previous evening ?
ANSWER - First of all I want to clarify one thing, that
I confirm that what is a conscientious , that is part of
myself, I do not like neither advantage nor life
of others or make it bad. However, that evening, in
that time I was reading about a square Grimana
bench a magazine L'Espresso .
QUESTION - What time was it ?
ANSWER - At about half past nine , ten.
QUESTION - What's Next?
ANSWER - I was on the bench to read the articles that
I was interested Espresso , occasionally smoked a
cigarette , staccavo reading and looked at the people who
was at or near Piazza Grimana , above. there were
the end of the basketball court two boys, they looked like two
boyfriends who were to discuss a little ' animatedly
between them.
QUESTION - Where were these guys exactly?
ANSWER - In round at the basketball court , under a street lamp,
where you throw the ball in the basket .
QUESTION - What were they doing as well as discuss ?
ANSWER - They talked to each other like two lovers , each
then one got up and went on the way , where is
the railing to look under . There were other people
however, that was a little ' mess, was a period of
party.
QUESTION - Do you remember what time it was when you saw them ?
ANSWER - I'll I said , I was on the bench to the half-past nine , ten o'clock, I was up to at midnight there. QUESTION - And these two boys when he saw them ? ANSWER - Up to before midnight that I was a bit ' tired of reading, I had lit a cigarette , I look always people passing , the movement that is important to us Piazza Grimana and then after I have not seen again. QUESTION - So you saw them just before midnight and ... ANSWER - The last time yes . QUESTION - then did not see them anymore? ANSWER - No. QUESTION - How long has observed them ? ANSWER - Let's say that every time you read the staccavo newspaper , I have smoked three or four cigarettes so . QUESTION - What were these guys clothes ? ANSWER - On the color a bit ' dark . QUESTION - We can describe them as they were physically ? ANSWER - They were not so high , a little ' bassini , seemed pure sympathetic inter alia . QUESTION - Light Brown, Dark Blonde ? Excuse me Mr. Curatolo , sees them in this courtroom these guys ? ANSWER - Yes QUESTION - Who are they? PRESIDENT - Li may indicate ? ANSWER - I'm her and him. But I knew them before , it is not I saw them only that evening, previously ...It is recognized that the witness indicates that the defendants are in
classroom , that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - So you will see little
before midnight. Then he does, he falls asleep ?
ANSWER - No, after I smoke a cigarette and then I walk away .
QUESTION - What time is gone from the area ?
ANSWER - Shortly before midnight.
QUESTION - And then when he's gone on there were no more ?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - So you always saw them just before
midnight he say?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Then where did he go to sleep?
ANSWER - I went to the park.
APPLICATION - The lawn ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - I mean ?
ANSWER - At the park .
QUESTION - What time do you wake up?
ANSWER - About nine o'clock . Half past eight , nine , as well .
QUESTION - Then what did he do?
ANSWER - I went again to the streets.
QUESTION - In Piazza Grimana ?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - What was there that morning?
ANSWER - I went to grab a cappuccino at the bar , then
I sat on the bench , I smoked a
cigarette every now and then some guy came
knew, so some friends , chat , however,
There was a strange thing because there was a movement of
Police came and went . We were in the square until
to around one and a half , the two , as well , in fact I was
even more, just arrived Carabinieri
ask if we had seen or heard something
something. I said because I had not heard ... to
part to see the guys who were to entertain the
evening I had not seen anything serious . We were a bit '
there, and there was this going of Police, we
overlooking below and we saw people
dressed in white , Police, Carabinieri, a mess of
people there down below .
QUESTION - Downstairs where? In what area ?
ANSWER - Near a house near the entrance of a house
were .
QUESTION - Via Della Pergola?
ANSWER - Yes
APPLICATION - The house she saw then in newspapers, photo?
ANSWER - Yes, yes .
QUESTION - is the house where the crime took place ?
ANSWER - Yes , at least the paper says so .
QUESTION - So you see these people , he goes to sleep
in the park, wakes up in the morning at nine , remains in
square area Grimana , then to one and a half , the two
at some point begins a bustle of Police ?
Bill,
I appreciate your relentless quest for enlightenment, but surely you must realize that, at this critical juncture, obfuscation is the order of the day! Where have you been, have you completely fallen into the trap of believing in the 'Renaissance Man' and where he first showed up?
I am afraid we will once again have to dig our self out from the deep pile of Italian legal manure that is coming our way. So get your shovel ready - or a bulldozer. Cheers!
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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- Dec 14, 2012
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'
Here's the problem I have with this kind of thinking Grinder.
Certainly, sometimes murders happen "out of the blue" with no explicable reason.
But they are the vast exception. Usually there is a motive or an understandable reason. 98 percent of the time, one can look back and see that the people involved were having an affair, or there were financial motives or that the person had anger management issues. It's not that Amanda and Raffaele 100 percent absolutely couldn't have done it. It is that there is nothing you can really point to in either one of them to see the potential for this kind of thing. And what you see when you look is the polar opposite. Two people that are seemingly stable and well adjusted in every way. Neither are none to have anger issues, neither are known to have any kind of problem with Meredith. And the idea that this was financially motivated is a joke of major proportions.
Now you can say that doesn't matter, but I don't buy that. Is it the end all be all to the case. No, but it does matter.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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Don't want to throw a spanner(*) in the works, but does anyone have a link to the original Italian text of de Felice's statement? I've only seen English translations. I'd be interested to know what the original of "she buckled" was. Or did he make the statement in English? Surely not.
(*) that's a wrench to you uneducated yanks.
One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't the English learn to set
A good example to people whose
English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely
disappears. In America, they haven't used it for years!
Why can't the English,
Why can't the English learn to speak?
Grinder
Penultimate Amazing
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- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 10,033
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO
QUESTION - You said that at 21.30, as she start time
did refer to 21.30.
ANSWER - Yes, but already I had been there in the afternoon.
QUESTION - You told me that in the afternoon it was already past
ovviai standing there because she often was already in the past
afternoon.
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - In the afternoon he saw Sollecito and Knox ?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - At 21.30 see them for the first time?
ANSWER - At 21.30 when I saw the Police in front
the house?
QUESTION - What do you see at 21.30 that evening we
described ?
ANSWER - The night before I had seen the Police , the
men in white so ...
QUESTION - In the morning sees the men in black , the night before
men in white are we talking about it?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - What do you see at 21.30 ?
ANSWER - I confirm it again, I saw two boys ,
like two boyfriends who were down at the bottom of
basketball court.
QUESTION - At 21.30 ?
ANSWER - At nine and a half more or less , half past nine - ten o'clock. APPLICATION - These guys were from 21.30 then the day before the murder , until midnight ... ANSWER - Before midnight.QUESTION - Up to always be there before midnight .
ANSWER - Yes , they were discussing , they were talking to each other. not
it was the first time I had such a thing .
QUESTION - Yes, but we are interested rebuild. How would you know it was
arrived precisely at nine and a half?
ANSWER - Because apart from that there is a clock of ZTL ,
plus i have it too a clock.
QUESTION - Then at 21.30 there were together on park bench
Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito .
ANSWER - No, they were not ... I was on the bench, their
were on the low wall of the basketball court .
APPLICATION - The two of them were always there continuously ? ANSWER - Yes, until before midnight, I go away , I think so because they were there.QUESTION - So it's not that they've come and gone , are
always been there?
ANSWER - No , I am neither left nor returned , there were
sitting around talking to each other.
QUESTION - And the next day is the day when there are these
with the white overalls and there is a crime.
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - So the night before the murder she saw continuously Raffaele and Amanda there? ANSWER - Yes, yes .QUESTION - I have no further questions.
DEFENSE - AVV . THE WIDOW - No question .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI
QUESTION - So you 're sitting on the bench .
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - And we said around 21:30 ?
ANSWER - Yes, half-past nine - ten o'clock.
QUESTION - 21:30 to 22:00 .
QUESTION - When she is there and ... she looks at the time,
21:30 to 22:00 ?
ANSWER - Not right away , I light up a cigarette and then I'm going to
see a little ' the people who are around.
QUESTION - But these guys , as soon as she saw them was there
immediately ?
ANSWER - No, I've got just looked down at the golf
basketball , but I think it has been some five minutes,
as well .
QUESTION - I Listen to the context in which her statements
which made February 2, 2008 states differently
the arrival of the boys. Now I can see it ...
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - President when there is a difference between
verbal summary and transcripts I would prefer that
to be read a transcript forever.
PRESIDENT - If we have the transcript we can ...
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - There is also the
verbalization summary .
PRESIDENT - Yes , however the transcript prevails as in
all the minutes .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - So sorry but I have to ...
I have to read it to him , is long enough, then I read the
verbalization summary because it is very concise ,
But she says on page 2 ...
PRESIDENT - Declarations of 2 February 20008 , is the
transcript .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Yes, then I read that
more synthetic that makes us understand better : "This will be
success between eleven and a half - after midnight "," between
23.00 and after midnight then ? "," yes, "" very
after midnight ? "," no , I think ... I went down ,
I went away after they have left the bus . "
PRESIDENT - Public Ministry , sorry, can re-read because
we did not understand . Around 23:00 after midnight?
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Yes "Between 23.00 and after
midnight so ? "," yes "," much after the
midnight? "," no , I think ... I went down, they are
went away after they left the bus "," a
ten minutes after the start ? "," yes , ten, a
quarter of an hour "," buses and depart at midnight ? "
" More or less the time is ," " what you noticed that?
They went to the house ? "," No, they were sitting
down to the bottom and chatting "," she was near
the newsstand ? "," yes , they will almost fifty
meters , more or less , of distance and were chatting
and then every so often watched. One of these two
get up ... ", " boy or girl? "," the boy
got up and went to look under there . " Now I try
time and in any case has shown , says: " I was in
Piazza Grimana , usually I stop at Piazza Grimana
Grimana square is a few tens of meters from the house
Via Della Pergola - and then says - I had noticed , there was a
little 'casino of students who went , they took the bus to go to the disco to have fun and I noticed a young couple who were down at the bottom the square . "ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - And then he says : "Yes, this will be successful between eleven
and a half after midnight , "that you refer to
eleven thirty - midnight.
ANSWER - No I'm nine and a half, I went to
Piazza Grimana , until about ten o'clock so I was
reading the Express and I was smoking a cigarette does not
I had noticed. Then about half-past nine - ten I have noticed these two guys , until around midnight.PRESIDENT - She said: " I was there from half-past nine
at ten , I read the Express , I had not noticed the
boys. "
ANSWER - Yes .
PRESIDENT - "After I've noticed ," she repeats , however, still
half-past nine - ten or so is not good.
ANSWER - That is among the nine and a half and ten.
PRESIDENT - So she arrives at half past nine - ten ...
ANSWER - It must have been five or ten minutes , nine and a half
are nine and a half , the ten are the ten , is half an hour
of time , so if I smoke a cigarette it takes me
five minutes, accordingly ...
PRESIDENT - She said : " half past nine - ten," after he
yet added : "After I've noticed ," and then after the
presupposes a passing of time , vice versa so repeats the
half-past nine - ten or so ...
ANSWER - No, no, between half-past nine and ten they already had them
noticed the cigarette because it takes me five minutes
smoke it .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - She said, however,
there is the verbalization that is very clear summary
on the point.
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - President excuse me, then
the opposition is this ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no , we are in verbalization , that
integral .
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - Registration is on her hands .
PRESIDENT - Also because the summary ...
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - So her as she was
there, watching them getting these guys?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - There have been times ...
ANSWER - Yes, that staccavo moments to read the articles
that interested me , I smoked a cigarette and then I
put in place to look and saw who was inside
the square.
QUESTION - How many times has observed ?
ANSWER - Four or five times, I have smoked four or
five cigarettes , not more.
QUESTION - She fell asleep too?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - Now I do not know where the verbalization ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, we're in the integral because the
Summary ...
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - What I wanted to know
this is , so she is able to point out when he sees
these two guys ? At that precise time ?
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - President, at this point begin the opposition because when we do three hundred identical questions , we cross-examination more ... PRESIDENT - no fourteenth century , but more of a ... PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Yes, but there is a dispute on the basis of the minutes. DEFENSE - AVV . Ghirga - He said it twice! PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Based on the report ... PRESIDENT - I'm sorry we can reread that part used for the challenge .PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - The part
dispute , " often more than a few couples stops
there before blindside the bus and occasionally one of
they attacked down below the road and then
returned to put to sit there. "
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - "After a while, 'but they are gone , say after
parties are buses that take kids in
disco , yes. And this will be successful - she says - including
eleven and a half after midnight . "
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Between 23 and after midnight, but she did not indicate
here the time that sees the boys , that she shows ...
ANSWER - Among the ...
DEFENSE - AVV . THE WIDOW - There is opposition because the accurate reading of the text just reported by the Public Ministry is clear that the reference is to start the bus . Buses leave for the disco about eleven and a half hours , midnight, so there is a attempt to confuse the witness.THE PRESIDENT - No, absolutely not !
ANSWER - No, they always start at that time.
PRESIDENT - It seeks only to know what the witness
has seen and to know for a ...
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Here's a unique time
in this report , if you want to read the first part
and there is only one time , " she is presented
spontaneously ? "," yes, this is granted, " " then the
night ... "," the evening that was supposed to happen
the murder I was in Piazza Grimana and I was downstairs ...
I stop in Piazza Grimana "," square is Grimana
few tens of meters from the house on Via Della Pergola ? "
" Yes , and I had noticed , because there was a little ' casino students who went , they took the bus to go disco to have fun , I noticed a pair of young men who were down in the bottom of the square where there is , there is a basketball court "," and they were down in
bottom to chat with each other ? "," yes , often more than
some couple stops there before blindside
the bus and occasionally one of them attacked down
under the road and then returned to to seat
there, sit there , after a while, 'but disappeared , "
" Say that after they left the buses that carry the
the disco boys ? "," yes and this will be successful among
eleven and a half after midnight "," between 23 and after
midnight so ? "," yes "," much after the
midnight? "," no , I think ... I went away after
they left the bus " . So the only time that he
indicates in the report is ...
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - I am opposed to this
dispute , and today the witness has given a start time
of what he saw , had not been made
evidently the application by the Public Prosecutor in
verbal and therefore lacks . The witness has ever reported
the time that went by , the minutes for me
we can acquire , there is a question with reference
at the beginning, he talks about when they go away of 23.30
so there is no dispute.
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - The dispute here is
a single time ...
PRESIDENT - Excuse me, but the point is this ... it is acknowledged
of this opposition and further acknowledges
full report , so the recording of the words
as she said in this report ... is of 2 February
With apologies to Rose
Wow. Just. Wow.
What a powerful witness...
for the defense.
QUESTION - You said that at 21.30, as she start time
did refer to 21.30.
ANSWER - Yes, but already I had been there in the afternoon.
QUESTION - You told me that in the afternoon it was already past
ovviai standing there because she often was already in the past
afternoon.
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - In the afternoon he saw Sollecito and Knox ?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - At 21.30 see them for the first time?
ANSWER - At 21.30 when I saw the Police in front
the house?
QUESTION - What do you see at 21.30 that evening we
described ?
ANSWER - The night before I had seen the Police , the
men in white so ...
QUESTION - In the morning sees the men in black , the night before
men in white are we talking about it?
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - What do you see at 21.30 ?
ANSWER - I confirm it again, I saw two boys ,
like two boyfriends who were down at the bottom of
basketball court.
QUESTION - At 21.30 ?
ANSWER - At nine and a half more or less , half past nine - ten o'clock. APPLICATION - These guys were from 21.30 then the day before the murder , until midnight ... ANSWER - Before midnight.QUESTION - Up to always be there before midnight .
ANSWER - Yes , they were discussing , they were talking to each other. not
it was the first time I had such a thing .
QUESTION - Yes, but we are interested rebuild. How would you know it was
arrived precisely at nine and a half?
ANSWER - Because apart from that there is a clock of ZTL ,
plus i have it too a clock.
QUESTION - Then at 21.30 there were together on park bench
Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito .
ANSWER - No, they were not ... I was on the bench, their
were on the low wall of the basketball court .
APPLICATION - The two of them were always there continuously ? ANSWER - Yes, until before midnight, I go away , I think so because they were there.QUESTION - So it's not that they've come and gone , are
always been there?
ANSWER - No , I am neither left nor returned , there were
sitting around talking to each other.
QUESTION - And the next day is the day when there are these
with the white overalls and there is a crime.
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - So the night before the murder she saw continuously Raffaele and Amanda there? ANSWER - Yes, yes .QUESTION - I have no further questions.
DEFENSE - AVV . THE WIDOW - No question .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI
QUESTION - So you 're sitting on the bench .
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - And we said around 21:30 ?
ANSWER - Yes, half-past nine - ten o'clock.
QUESTION - 21:30 to 22:00 .
QUESTION - When she is there and ... she looks at the time,
21:30 to 22:00 ?
ANSWER - Not right away , I light up a cigarette and then I'm going to
see a little ' the people who are around.
QUESTION - But these guys , as soon as she saw them was there
immediately ?
ANSWER - No, I've got just looked down at the golf
basketball , but I think it has been some five minutes,
as well .
QUESTION - I Listen to the context in which her statements
which made February 2, 2008 states differently
the arrival of the boys. Now I can see it ...
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - President when there is a difference between
verbal summary and transcripts I would prefer that
to be read a transcript forever.
PRESIDENT - If we have the transcript we can ...
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - There is also the
verbalization summary .
PRESIDENT - Yes , however the transcript prevails as in
all the minutes .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - So sorry but I have to ...
I have to read it to him , is long enough, then I read the
verbalization summary because it is very concise ,
But she says on page 2 ...
PRESIDENT - Declarations of 2 February 20008 , is the
transcript .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Yes, then I read that
more synthetic that makes us understand better : "This will be
success between eleven and a half - after midnight "," between
23.00 and after midnight then ? "," yes, "" very
after midnight ? "," no , I think ... I went down ,
I went away after they have left the bus . "
PRESIDENT - Public Ministry , sorry, can re-read because
we did not understand . Around 23:00 after midnight?
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Yes "Between 23.00 and after
midnight so ? "," yes "," much after the
midnight? "," no , I think ... I went down, they are
went away after they left the bus "," a
ten minutes after the start ? "," yes , ten, a
quarter of an hour "," buses and depart at midnight ? "
" More or less the time is ," " what you noticed that?
They went to the house ? "," No, they were sitting
down to the bottom and chatting "," she was near
the newsstand ? "," yes , they will almost fifty
meters , more or less , of distance and were chatting
and then every so often watched. One of these two
get up ... ", " boy or girl? "," the boy
got up and went to look under there . " Now I try
time and in any case has shown , says: " I was in
Piazza Grimana , usually I stop at Piazza Grimana
Grimana square is a few tens of meters from the house
Via Della Pergola - and then says - I had noticed , there was a
little 'casino of students who went , they took the bus to go to the disco to have fun and I noticed a young couple who were down at the bottom the square . "ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - And then he says : "Yes, this will be successful between eleven
and a half after midnight , "that you refer to
eleven thirty - midnight.
ANSWER - No I'm nine and a half, I went to
Piazza Grimana , until about ten o'clock so I was
reading the Express and I was smoking a cigarette does not
I had noticed. Then about half-past nine - ten I have noticed these two guys , until around midnight.PRESIDENT - She said: " I was there from half-past nine
at ten , I read the Express , I had not noticed the
boys. "
ANSWER - Yes .
PRESIDENT - "After I've noticed ," she repeats , however, still
half-past nine - ten or so is not good.
ANSWER - That is among the nine and a half and ten.
PRESIDENT - So she arrives at half past nine - ten ...
ANSWER - It must have been five or ten minutes , nine and a half
are nine and a half , the ten are the ten , is half an hour
of time , so if I smoke a cigarette it takes me
five minutes, accordingly ...
PRESIDENT - She said : " half past nine - ten," after he
yet added : "After I've noticed ," and then after the
presupposes a passing of time , vice versa so repeats the
half-past nine - ten or so ...
ANSWER - No, no, between half-past nine and ten they already had them
noticed the cigarette because it takes me five minutes
smoke it .
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - She said, however,
there is the verbalization that is very clear summary
on the point.
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - President excuse me, then
the opposition is this ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no , we are in verbalization , that
integral .
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - Registration is on her hands .
PRESIDENT - Also because the summary ...
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - So her as she was
there, watching them getting these guys?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - There have been times ...
ANSWER - Yes, that staccavo moments to read the articles
that interested me , I smoked a cigarette and then I
put in place to look and saw who was inside
the square.
QUESTION - How many times has observed ?
ANSWER - Four or five times, I have smoked four or
five cigarettes , not more.
QUESTION - She fell asleep too?
ANSWER - No.
QUESTION - Now I do not know where the verbalization ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, we're in the integral because the
Summary ...
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - What I wanted to know
this is , so she is able to point out when he sees
these two guys ? At that precise time ?
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - President, at this point begin the opposition because when we do three hundred identical questions , we cross-examination more ... PRESIDENT - no fourteenth century , but more of a ... PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Yes, but there is a dispute on the basis of the minutes. DEFENSE - AVV . Ghirga - He said it twice! PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Based on the report ... PRESIDENT - I'm sorry we can reread that part used for the challenge .PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - The part
dispute , " often more than a few couples stops
there before blindside the bus and occasionally one of
they attacked down below the road and then
returned to put to sit there. "
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - "After a while, 'but they are gone , say after
parties are buses that take kids in
disco , yes. And this will be successful - she says - including
eleven and a half after midnight . "
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Between 23 and after midnight, but she did not indicate
here the time that sees the boys , that she shows ...
ANSWER - Among the ...
DEFENSE - AVV . THE WIDOW - There is opposition because the accurate reading of the text just reported by the Public Ministry is clear that the reference is to start the bus . Buses leave for the disco about eleven and a half hours , midnight, so there is a attempt to confuse the witness.THE PRESIDENT - No, absolutely not !
ANSWER - No, they always start at that time.
PRESIDENT - It seeks only to know what the witness
has seen and to know for a ...
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - Here's a unique time
in this report , if you want to read the first part
and there is only one time , " she is presented
spontaneously ? "," yes, this is granted, " " then the
night ... "," the evening that was supposed to happen
the murder I was in Piazza Grimana and I was downstairs ...
I stop in Piazza Grimana "," square is Grimana
few tens of meters from the house on Via Della Pergola ? "
" Yes , and I had noticed , because there was a little ' casino students who went , they took the bus to go disco to have fun , I noticed a pair of young men who were down in the bottom of the square where there is , there is a basketball court "," and they were down in
bottom to chat with each other ? "," yes , often more than
some couple stops there before blindside
the bus and occasionally one of them attacked down
under the road and then returned to to seat
there, sit there , after a while, 'but disappeared , "
" Say that after they left the buses that carry the
the disco boys ? "," yes and this will be successful among
eleven and a half after midnight "," between 23 and after
midnight so ? "," yes "," much after the
midnight? "," no , I think ... I went away after
they left the bus " . So the only time that he
indicates in the report is ...
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - I am opposed to this
dispute , and today the witness has given a start time
of what he saw , had not been made
evidently the application by the Public Prosecutor in
verbal and therefore lacks . The witness has ever reported
the time that went by , the minutes for me
we can acquire , there is a question with reference
at the beginning, he talks about when they go away of 23.30
so there is no dispute.
PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI - The dispute here is
a single time ...
PRESIDENT - Excuse me, but the point is this ... it is acknowledged
of this opposition and further acknowledges
full report , so the recording of the words
as she said in this report ... is of 2 February
With apologies to Rose
Wow. Just. Wow.
What a powerful witness...
for the defense.
Grinder
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 10,033
So someone outside your reasonable profiles get out of jail for free? They are not the type just isn't a defense. Especially for murder. The prosecution didn't make a beyond a reasonable doubt case, so they are not guilty under the law. If they had histories of torturing small animals and pulling pranks and whatever you think would be the right profiles for being guilty, they would still be innocent.
Look up psychotic break. Raf does seem to have some minor issues and Amanda herself said she felt no embarrassment or something like that. Once again, making the blanket statements about their pureness invites comebacks. Neither your claims or the retorts means anything.
No it doesn't. If the evidence were there for conviction they would be guilty as charged no matter if they had lived like saints. If the evidence for guilt isn't there, they are not guilty even if they had spent half their lives in juvenile hall.
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