How effective is/was "Stop Sylvia Browne"?

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Sometimes known as a "bare-faced assertion".

You asked for opinions and got them. How come only Brattus gets the demand for proof?

You stated that you weren't looking for 'pats on the back' then gleefully accept all such and argue back against anything that isn't. You're coming across a bit petulant - even getting very close to playing the 'cripple card' with Brattus.

FWIW I disagree with his assertion that grievers are a small percentage of the target - though that is based on my own, unscientific observations so is also assertion.

Also FWIW I think your site was excellent and probably helped some fence-sitters decide, served as a suitable source of ammo for those of us looking for arguments against psychics and may have helped some believers turn away (though as Brattus said, this was often after the event - and with some, just turned them off Sylvia not psychics in general). All in all, very worth while and a great contribution to the sceptic community.

Did it 'stop' Sylvia? No, I don't think so, she was in decline anyway and her health failed. I'm sure it irritated the hell out of her though, and I'd take that any day. As others have said, it's more the positive effect it had on others than the small effect it had on Sylvia herself.

 

[RSLancastr]

You asked for opinions and got them. How come only Brattus gets the demand for proof?

I did not "demand proof". I merely agreed with Adman's observation of Brattus' assertion.

You stated that you weren't looking for 'pats on the back' then gleefully accept all such and argue back against anything that isn't. You're coming across a bit petulant - even getting very close to playing the 'cripple card' with Brattus.

How is my agreeing with Adman's observation of Brattus' assertion "getting very close to playing the 'cripple card'? If a person in a wheelchair points out that someone's making a totally unsupported assertion counter to the person in the wheelchair's opinion, he or she is "playing the 'cripple card'"??

Or was it something I posted other than what you quoted which you believe is very close to playing said card?

And yes, I asked for opinions. Had Brattus said that it was his opinion that few of the people who consulted Browne were grieving (or however he phrased his assertion), or that he believed that to be the case, I would not have characterized it as I did. (nor, I think, would Adman and the others who called him on it have done so).

Were there others who made unsupported assertions in favor of my site, which neither I nor others pointed out as unsupported assertions?

Most probably.

That neither I (nor anyone else, IIRC) did so most likely indicates a bias on my/our part, but I don't think I have ever claimed to be unbiased about my site. If I have, please be so kind as to point it out to one and all.

Thanks for your kind comments regarding my site, and the effect you believe it may have had.

Did it 'stop' Sylvia? No, I don't think so, she was in decline anyway and her health failed.

Was her career "in decline" when I created the site in 2006? I don't think it was. In fact, I think it may well have been at the height of her career, what with her weekly appearances on The Montel Williams Show, and her still cranking out a book every three or four months. And I am unclear what her declining health has/had to do with any of this. Are you playing the 'cripple card' for her?

 

[570Lesa]

i found SSB quite by accident while looking for positive information on Sylvia. I read it from top to bottom and could NOT argue the facts. After realizing she is a fraud ( 100 percent due to SSB ) I began questioning other psychics who are at the top of the field and I have come to the conclusion that they are all fakes and frauds. Again all because of my stumbling upon SSB. There is nothing special about my case and I am inclined to believe that it has made a huge huge difference for many others who were just like myself. I never thought I would be posting on a skeptic forum, but I just cannot argue with the truth. I went through a period where i was depressed that all of it was a phony. It IS a comforting thing to believe in but I also want to be informed. SSB has been a catalyst that has empowered me and changed me in profound ways. I am not understanding some of this hostility toward the webmaster of SSB.

 

[RSLancastr]

i found SSB quite by accident while looking for positive information on Sylvia. I read it from top to bottom and could NOT argue the facts. After realizing she is a fraud ( 100 percent due to SSB ) I began questioning other psychics who are at the top of the field and I have come to the conclusion that they are all fakes and frauds. Again all because of my stumbling upon SSB. There is nothing special about my case and I am inclined to believe that it has made a huge huge difference for many others who were just like myself. I never thought I would be posting on a skeptic forum, but I just cannot argue with the truth. I went through a period where i was depressed that all of it was a phony. It IS a comforting thing to believe in but I also want to be informed. SSB has been a catalyst that has empowered me and changed me in profound ways. I am not understanding some of this hostility toward the webmaster of SSB.

'Lesa, thank you so much for posting this. I received a PM similar to this from another forumite yesterday, and will repost it here if given permission to do so.

As far as the "hostility" towards me, I have been told by others that they think that it stems from a jealousy/envy (I can never remember which is the correct word there) over the attention that I and my sites have received.

I am more inclined to think that much of it stems from some people's simply enjoying having an opinion counter to that of "the crowd". Since many (perhaps most) of the people who frequent this forum are "pro SSB", these contrarians express the opposite opinion in order to "stand out" here.

There are also trolls, such as former forumites SylviaRox and mushy, who are simply out to start a ruckus, but I do not count Brattus nor Ethan Thane Athen among these.

I haven't interacted with Ethan enough to have an opinion as to his motivations, but I have interacted with Brattus (both on the forum and elsewhere) enough to have come to the conclusion that he simply and truly disagrees with me on many things (such as his conclusion/assertion that people who believe in psychics are "stupid"), and has no hesitation in doing so on the forum.

Again, my thanks for your post. It always makes my day to hear that SSB made such a difference in someone's outlook.

ETA:

While keying in the above, I received permission from that other forumite to quote the PM which he/she sent to me yesterday:

Hello Mr. Lancaster,

I'm just writing to let you know that it was your website Stop Sylvia that allowed me to become skeptical of, and then complete reject Sylvia as a person with legitimate psychic abilities.

Yours was pretty much the first skeptical sort of website I came across, back around 2006 when I was 12. It helped me to develop critical thinking skills when encountered with paranormal claims. It also showed me that Montel Williams was not the kind and caring person I thought he was.

Now, because of the knowledge your work imparted to me (such as cold reading techniques used by these con-artists), I disbelieve anyone who claims to possess paranormal abilities, as a rule, until they can sufficiently demonstrate them.

The better known of these people are on heavily edited "reality" shows like Long Island Medium, and it's clear that none of the antics seen on TV are sufficient demonstrations of their alleged abilities.

I was worried when you didn't post on your website for over a year, and then I learned you suffered a large stroke--this was in a 2010 update.

Following a period of no further updates, I was afraid perhaps that you died and your wife didn't update the site for whatever reason. I'm glad to have found out yesterday that you're alive and posting regularly on JREF, and importantly on the road to recovery.

Thanks for your terrific website--it was an important part of my childhood (early adolescence?). I think I read nearly every article on your site. They were so well laid out and entertaining to read. My favorites were the ones calculating predictive accuracy and reader e-mails.

PMs like this, posts like 570Lesa's, and emails I receive at SSB from other ex-fans of Sylvia Browne show me that - as others have posted in this thread - whatever impact SSB has had on Sylvia Browne's popularity is far less important, and far less a measure of the site's success than is the impact it has had on the lives of some of the people who have read its contents.

 

[RU Insane]

I'm "the other forumite" mentioned by Robert. I don't mind revealing my username; it's not my real one, anyway.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

As far as the "hostility" towards me, I have been told by others that they think that it stems from a jealousy/envy (I can never remember which is the correct word there) over the attention that I and my sites have received.

I am more inclined to think that much of it stems from some people's simply enjoying having an opinion counter to that of "the crowd". Since many (perhaps most) of the people who frequent this forum are "pro SSB", these contrarians express the opposite opinion in order to "stand out" here.

There are also trolls, such as former forumites SylviaRox and mushy, who are simply out to start a ruckus, but I do not count Brattus nor Ethan Thane Athen among these.

Without wanting to be antagonistic, it's also possible that some people simply don't like you. It's entirely possible that your posting style could rub some people up the wrong way. It's also possible for people who do good things to come across as pious and holier-than-thou. I don't think that but I can understand how others, while being well-meaning, could.

Plus, I can honestly say, that I don't think I've ever seen you post in a single topic that wasn't about you, or which didn't refer back to you in some way. It certainly seems that every week or two you'll start a new thread in the forum which is about you. A quick look through the first 5 pages of your posting history does indicate that all but a few of your posts are in threads that you've started, and almost all of the threads you start are about you, either directly or indirectly.

I'm not criticising. We all post about topics that interest us and one of the topics which interests you greatly - Sylvia Browne - is inextricably linked to you because of StopSylvia. Similarly, you've had health problems which are extreme and noteworthy, also making them a natural subject for you to post about.

Some people will disagree with you being "soft" on religion. Some people will simply not like you - we can't be liked by everybody and it's more than possible for one perfectly nice person to dislike another perfectly nice person for no reason other than that they don't rub along well.

I'm not trying to put you down or make you feel bad, what I'm trying to illustrate is that it's perfectly possible for people to dislike you for myriad reasons without falling in to the categories of jealous, troll or iconoclast. And, perhaps, the fact that you suggest these three categories and these three categories alone, may give fuel to the fire for some of them.

 

[RSLancastr]

Without wanting to be antagonistic, it's also possible that some people simply don't like you.

Quite right. I had meant to add that to my previous post, and was just now logging in to add it!

It's entirely possible that your posting style could rub some people up the wrong way.

Sad, but true. I have mentioned elsewhere (as you do later) my penchant for mostly posting in threads which I have started.

This is largely because:

1. I start a lot of threads
2. Those threads frequently generate a lot of replies
3. I try to respond to each of those replies, and
4. I only have so much time in which to do so.

So I generally enter the forum via a Favorite/Bookmark which shows only threads which I have started. I view any of those in which the most recent post is by someone other than me, and I try to reply to all posts since my most recent post.

If I still have any time left after all that, I usually:

1. Scan through recently-updated threads in Community and Gen Skep & Paranormal for any titles which pique my interest and reply to some of them
2. Search for threads with tags "Sylvia Browne" or "Robert Lancaster and read and reply to them
3. Create new threads about things in my life which I think are out-of-the-ordinary enough to share with the forum (such as:
   
   • my interactions at our church
   • my interactions with SSB correspondents
   • my interactions with other "woo believers", such as my Adventures in JVPLand, my Resident Skeptic radio shows, and any SSB-related interviews.

I also create threads about various topics which are on my mind, such as this one, or my recent poll about people's relationships with their ex-spouse.

So yes, all in all, a pretty egocentric use of the forum, which has led at least one person to refer to the GS&P Subforum as "RSLancastr's Blog", so I guess it is safe to say that it rubs some people the wrong way.

It's also possible for people who do good things to come across as pious and holier-than-thou.

...or More-Skeptical-Than-Thou, yes.

So yes, I think we have firmly established that there are a plethora of reasons why people may not like me.

But, as egocentric as my threads may be: FWIW, they usually seem to generate a fair number of views and replies.

 

[RSLancastr]

I'm "the other forumite" mentioned by Robert. I don't mind revealing my username; it's not my real one, anyway.

You revealed your user name? ARE YOU INSANE?!?

Oh... never mind.

 

[RU Insane]

I get that often

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

...



How is my agreeing with Adman's observation of Brattus' assertion "getting very close to playing the 'cripple card'? If a person in a wheelchair points out that someone's making a totally unsupported assertion counter to the person in the wheelchair's opinion, he or she is "playing the 'cripple card'"??

Or was it something I posted other than what you quoted which you believe is very close to playing said card?

...

It was in your reply to Brattus' which I thought I had inferred but obviously I wasn't clear enough:

"...like learning to walk again, for starters."

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

...

As far as the "hostility" towards me, I have been told by others that they think that it stems from a jealousy/envy (I can never remember which is the correct word there) over the attention that I and my sites have received.

I am more inclined to think that much of it stems from some people's simply enjoying having an opinion counter to that of "the crowd". Since many (perhaps most) of the people who frequent this forum are "pro SSB", these contrarians express the opposite opinion in order to "stand out" here.

There are also trolls, such as former forumites SylviaRox and mushy, who are simply out to start a ruckus, but I do not count Brattus nor Ethan Thane Athen among these.

I haven't interacted with Ethan enough to have an opinion as to his motivations, but I have interacted with Brattus (both on the forum and elsewhere) enough to have come to the conclusion that he simply and truly disagrees with me on many things (such as his conclusion/assertion that people who believe in psychics are "stupid"), and has no hesitation in doing so on the forum.

....

Disagreeing with you is hardly 'hostility'. I may have been snippy on occasion (my writing style tends towards that I admit) but no more so than you have been in some of your replies to me or others who have disagreed with you - to be clear I am not criticising those replies and 'snippy' is probably over-stating it, just opining that I wouldn't categorise any of our exchanges as 'hostile' just disagreements.

As for 'jealousy / envy', whoever suggested that to you needs to grow up. That's a standard playground response 'Ooh you're just jealous'. On the contrary I admire and respect what you've done and the patience you usually show in dealing with people - and have freely admitted before that I would lack the same patience - but jealous? Nope. Our lives are very different with the main thing in common being that we both have wives we love very much. Nothing to be jealous of for either of us as we both seem happy with our lot in life.

A subsequent poster has suggested 'wanting to be different' and there may be a smidgeon of truth in that. I'll respond to that one with an explanation.

ETA OOOps, sorry it was you. I do have that tendency in things like taste in music etc so it's possible you're on to something there, albeit it would be unconscious in this case. I genuinely think I have only ever posted to praise you - earlier days, or to disagree with you when I genuinely did (eg your recent posts about how wonderful your church is etc) but I will certainly admit that the flood of RSL 'groupies' to your defence does wind me up (not your fault of course) so that may add an edge to my disagreements... but would not cause them. I disagree because I have a contrary opinion and I thought debate was what this site was about. I am always happy to have my views countered by reasoned argument - unfortunately many of your supporters resort to argumentum ad populum (if that's the right expression) as in "How dare you disagree with RSL, look what he did with SSB!".

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Without wanting to be antagonistic, it's also possible that some people simply don't like you. It's entirely possible that your posting style could rub some people up the wrong way. It's also possible for people who do good things to come across as pious and holier-than-thou. I don't think that but I can understand how others, while being well-meaning, could.

Plus, I can honestly say, that I don't think I've ever seen you post in a single topic that wasn't about you, or which didn't refer back to you in some way. It certainly seems that every week or two you'll start a new thread in the forum which is about you. A quick look through the first 5 pages of your posting history does indicate that all but a few of your posts are in threads that you've started, and almost all of the threads you start are about you, either directly or indirectly.

I'm not criticising. We all post about topics that interest us and one of the topics which interests you greatly - Sylvia Browne - is inextricably linked to you because of StopSylvia. Similarly, you've had health problems which are extreme and noteworthy, also making them a natural subject for you to post about.

Some people will disagree with you being "soft" on religion. Some people will simply not like you - we can't be liked by everybody and it's more than possible for one perfectly nice person to dislike another perfectly nice person for no reason other than that they don't rub along well.

I'm not trying to put you down or make you feel bad, what I'm trying to illustrate is that it's perfectly possible for people to dislike you for myriad reasons without falling in to the categories of jealous, troll or iconoclast. And, perhaps, the fact that you suggest these three categories and these three categories alone, may give fuel to the fire for some of them.

I don't think I dislike RSL - after all, you don't really get to know anyone on the internet. Indeed I look out for his posts as they are usually interesting. I have found more to disagree with him on lately with his posts about his church rather than when he mostly posted about SSB and I have made my views and the reasons behind them known in those threads ie the being 'soft' on religion was fine (probably more productive than my aggressive stance) but it's the apparent active promotion (for balance RSL always denies this so it is purely how it comes across to me) that pushes my buttons.

I find the hero-worship of his groupies irritating but I don't believe that's jealousy because I don't find it irritating because of the hero worship per se but because it sometimes seems to get in the way of reasoned argument. RSL to be fair often cut through that, though it seems (perception only) that that is getting less so these days. It could also be that the gushing emotion tends to rub a Brit up the wrong way but that's a minor thing. You Yanks and your emotions!

 

[RSLancastr]

Disagreeing with you is hardly 'hostility'.

No, simply disagreeing with me is not "hostility".

Telling me that I "came bery close to playing the 'cripple card'" IS., in my opinion, as was your remark in another of my threads that the OP was "yet another sign of my slow, but seemingly inevitable descent into Christianity".

I only mentioned you (and Brattus) because 570Lesa mentioned not understanding the hostility toward me. I took that to mean hostility towards me In this thread, and your 'cripple card' remark and Brattus saying that SSB had had no effect on Browne's popularity were the closest things to hostility towards me in this thread. I then broadened my reply to include others who, while not participating in this thread, have been what I had taken as "hostile"
towards me elsewhere on the forum (mushy, SylviaRox and others who I did not name).

As for 'jealousy / envy', whoever suggested that to you needs to grow up.

To be clearer, that part of my post was NOT about you or Brattus, but primarily about one of the "unnamed hostiles". I will PM you with details.

On the contrary I admire and respect what you've done and the patience you usually show in dealing with people - and have freely admitted before that I would lack the same patience - but jealous? Nope. Our lives are very different with the main thing in common being that we both have wives we love very much. Nothing to be jealous of for either of us as we both seem happy with our lot in life.

Thanks for the kind words, and congrats on having a wife that you love very much!

 

[100]

Do you have the traffic figures for your site? Because it's unlikely the site will have affected the opinion of more people than the total views. Then all we need to do is compare that to the number of Browne followers (if such figures exist) in order to see the maximum possible total effect.

I was looking at Alexa to find out if it could be seen and I found something interesting.

Sylvia Browne website

Stop Sylvia

It seems that on the whole that Sylvia's website is more popular than RSLancastr's.

Except in the middle of 2013. The Amanda Berry case did her no favours.
(Is there a way to make this sound less insensitive? I've been thinking for about half an hour)

 

[RSLancastr]

A subsequent poster has suggested 'wanting to be different' and there may be a smidgeon of truth in that. I'll respond to that one with an explanation.

ETA OOOps, sorry it was you. I do have that tendency in things like taste in music etc so it's possible you're on to something there, albeit it would be unconscious in this case.

I'm often the same way in music/TV/film taste. sometimes avoiding a given artist/show/film simply because he/she/it is popular, and taking inordinate pride in being "ahead of the curve" in liking an artist/show/film before he/she/it becomes popular with the masses.

I genuinely think I have only ever posted to praise you - earlier days, or to disagree with you when I genuinely did (eg your recent posts about how wonderful your church is etc) but I will certainly admit that the flood of RSL 'groupies' to your defence does wind me up (not your fault of course) so that may add an edge to my disagreements... but would not cause them. I disagree because I have a contrary opinion and I thought debate was what this site was about. I am always happy to have my views countered by reasoned argument - unfortunately many of your supporters resort to argumentum ad populum (if that's the right expression) as in "How dare you disagree with RSL, look what he did with SSB!".

Fair enough. Thanks for spelling it out.

 

[RSLancastr]

I was looking at Alexa to find out if it could be seen and I found something interesting.

Sylvia Browne website

Stop Sylvia

It seems that on the whole that Sylvia's website is more popular than RSLancastr's.

Except in the middle of 2013. The Amanda Berry case did her no favours.
(Is there a way to make this sound less insensitive? I've been thinking for about half an hour)

Thanks for the links. I have not had the password to my site's stats since my stroke.

What makes it a bit complicated is the fact that both Browne's site and mine have changed URLs at least once. I think that if you ran the stats for www.stopsylvia.com (my site's URL prior to around October 2008), you would see an even more dramatic spike in my site's visitor count in January 2007, when I broke the news about Browne's involvement in the Shawn Hornbeck case the day that Shawn was found.

ETA: The forum software evidently auto-corrects references to my site's old URL to the new URL.

The old one was www dot stopsylviabrowne dot com.

 

[100]

Thanks for the links. I have not had the password to my site's stats since my stroke.

What makes it a bit complicated is the fact that both Browne's site and mine have changed URLs at least once. I think that if you ran the stats for www.stopsylvia.com (my site's URL prior to around October 2008), you would see an even more dramatic spike in my site's visitor count in January 2007, when I broke the news about Browne's involvement in the Shawn Hornbeck case the day that Shawn was found.

ETA: The forum software evidently auto-corrects references to my site's old URL to the new URL.

The old one was www dot stopsylviabrowne dot com.

I haven't seen any websites that give traffic back that far. Anyone know of one?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't think I dislike RSL

I didn't say you did.

You Yanks and your emotions!

I'm also British.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I find the hero-worship of his groupies irritating but I don't believe that's jealousy because I don't find it irritating because of the hero worship per se but because it sometimes seems to get in the way of reasoned argument. RSL to be fair often cut through that, though it seems (perception only) that that is getting less so these days. It could also be that the gushing emotion tends to rub a Brit up the wrong way but that's a minor thing. You Yanks and your emotions!

I absolutely hero-worshipped Robert (I don't know if he ever picked up on that) and I'm a dual citizen of the European Union and the United States.

I'm a very sentimental person by nature and, if anything, it comes from the Eastern European side of my personality. My immigrant father is the exact same way, which is a good indicator that it's a Eastern European thing.

Or maybe it is just a Moe family thing. Maybe it is just us.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I didn't say you did.



I'm also British.

The last comment was light banter directed generally at RSL supporters rather than at you. I realise that wasn't clear.

I thought your post was well reasoned and unemotional and did us Brits proud.