Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Dempsey isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already get it.

Where did she get this info?

Did Burleigh mention it, given she "went deep"?

Not that it's credible that someone just made up an arbitrary story about Guede "smelling bad".
I don't know. I just Googled "Rudy Guede dancing" and it pulled up a few things, but most of the articles were talking about the night of the murder. This was the first match that mentioned the next night. I didn't look further after I found this one.
 
Well now - in 2013 this is almost apocryphal.

It's was "reported" years back, contemporaneously, i.e. c.2008, and now someone will have to dig deep for 'cites'.

I have treated it as apocrypha from the git-go, even if it is based on testimony or statements.

I have seen how when someone is accused of a crime, all of a sudden people start coming forward with stories that put them in a bad light.

One case that has been examined is that of Cameron Todd Willingham, who was executed for a supposed arson fire that killed his kids. When the fire first happened, witnesses described him as distraught to the point of hysteria. When he was tried for murder, they got on the stand and testified that he didn't seem that upset.

Torches and pitchforks... the villagers love 'em.
 
I have treated it as apocrypha from the git-go, even if it is based on testimony or statements.

I have seen how when someone is accused of a crime, all of a sudden people start coming forward with stories that put them in a bad light.

One case that has been examined is that of Cameron Todd Willingham, who was executed for a supposed arson fire that killed his kids. When the fire first happened, witnesses described him as distraught to the point of hysteria. When he was tried for murder, they got on the stand and testified that he didn't seem that upset.

Torches and pitchforks... the villagers love 'em.

That makes sense. One only needs to look at how all of Perugia seem to turn on Amanda. Like someone "flipped a switch".
 
Mach is there a language issue or a cultural issue with the word "compatible"?

What does compatible mean to you?

I admit that 'compatible' can be seen almost as a weasel word, because its consequences depend on the context and on the specific case.

The foot print on the mat was compatible with Raf. The bare foot prints were compatible with Amanda. It seems that most of all the circumstantial; evidence is only compatible at most, not a match.

Well, here I see you talking about two different things. The foot prints are 'compatible' with some persons (and above all, some are 'not compatible' with others). The logical consequence of this on the scenario, may depend on the number and features of suspects you have in your set.

But the concept of 'circumstantial evidence' is different. The circumstantial evidence itself is not something 'compatible', it't incorrect to define it so. Circumstantial evidence is an indicator, it points into a direction. It is actually a set of indicators. Some of those indicators can be things that are just 'compatible', but they are crossed with other logical elements.

I don't see that Amanda's real or even the most extreme alleged behavior in any way make her more likely than any other college student to commit a murder.

Well, I won't push myself over as to include "any" college student. And, anyway, I think it's usualy impossible to associate a person with the concept "a murder", a totally generic concept, and do this based on the persons' features. I don't think murderers fit any category.

I am thinking about Amanda being 'compatible' with a scenario where she dates Rudy Guede for a (maybe drug-fuelled) sexual meeting/party at her apartment. It's the compatibility of this scenario what I was talkijg about, rather than a murder.
 
Oh, my. Here is the evolution of your -- I can't exactly call it "thinking--" your devious and defamatory claims and insinuations. All direct quotes from the last day or so. (...)

Cm’on, here it’s just a reality check.
If Amanda Knox was an upper class buisness woman above 30, with a well-paid job, living with a husband ad children, a regular social life with her acquaitned and relatives, who would have dinner every night at 9 pm, in a cool apartment in some other neighborhood downtown… then, her profile and lifestile would appear ‘not compatible’ with a scenario of her dating Rudy Guede for a casual drug-fuelled sex party at a students’ house in via della Pergola.

Amanda Knox was a 20-year old whom Sollecito described as “only interested in pleasure” and completely detached from reality, who described her student life as “excessive”. She is a person who would drift around Europe looking for fun, would have casual sex with people he met on a train and skip her house cleaning tasks. Witnesses described her as having an attitude of showing off to get others attention, being perceived as inopportune, often annoying and un-empathic, making monologues about herself instead of conversation, as having something compulsive in her bringing men at home (she was even seductive and jealous about Meredith’s boyfriend). She praised the lifestyle of ‘casual’ sex outside any relation regardless of boyfriends. She knew Guede since at least a month before she met Sollecito, and Guede used to say “I’d like to screw her”. She had a part time casual job where she performed poorly so that Lumumba immediately changed her mansions. She had some psychological issues, obvious from details like her copying Laura’s piercings. She admitted to be smoking a lot of weed that night and to be together with a guy (Sollecito) who was recorded at the Prefect office of Bari as a heavy drug consumer, and recorded at his middle school for having injured a girl with scissors. Her phone number was in the cell phone of a drug dealer and they exchanged telephone contacts (the drug dealer in question was accused of giving drug to female students in exchange of sex). The place where Guede would spend his afternoons was in the midway between her house door and her university, she lived at about 90 meters from there and attended classes at an institute 60 meters beyond there. Guede lived behind via Garibaldi and there she recalls to have met a black man she describes as “beautiful”, and they promised to meet each other again after she would be back from Germany; despite this, she never revealed his name.

Your (folks') objections were that she was not a ‘party girl’ because she was a honor student (a curiously unproven claim, btw) and that the reason and circumstances in which she gave her phone number to the drug dealer are not known in detail.
It’s self-evident that such objections are ludicrous.
You may try to disagree on the interpretation of some of the details listed above, but you can perfectly see the basic data about the person’s profile.

The profile of Amanda Knox is just compatible with a scenario where she attended a sexual meeting with Guede at Via della Pergola. Every rational person can see that.
Just say it’s compatible and move on.
 
I am thinking about Amanda being 'compatible' with a scenario where she dates Rudy Guede for a (maybe drug-fuelled) sexual meeting/party at her apartment. It's the compatibility of this scenario what I was talkijg about, rather than a murder.

I'm thinking of this whole thing being compatible with a bunch of horny old Italian perverts using their little system to railroad innocent kids.
 
<snip>Amanda Knox was a 20-year old whom Sollecito described as “only interested in pleasure” and completely detached from reality, who described her student life as “excessive”. She is a person who would drift around Europe looking for fun, would have casual sex with people he met on a train and skip her house cleaning tasks. Witnesses described her as having an attitude of showing off to get others attention, being perceived as inopportune, often annoying and un-empathic, making monologues about herself instead of conversation, as having something compulsive in her bringing men at home (she was even seductive and jealous about Meredith’s boyfriend). She praised the lifestyle of ‘casual’ sex outside any relation regardless of boyfriends. She knew Guede since at least a month before she met Sollecito, and Guede used to say “I’d like to screw her”. She had a part time casual job where she performed poorly so that Lumumba immediately changed her mansions. She had some psychological issues, obvious from details like her copying Laura’s piercings. She admitted to be smoking a lot of weed that night and to be together with a guy (Sollecito) who was recorded at the Prefect office of Bari as a heavy drug consumer, and recorded at his middle school for having injured a girl with scissors. Her phone number was in the cell phone of a drug dealer and they exchanged telephone contacts (the drug dealer in question was accused of giving drug to female students in exchange of sex). The place where Guede would spend his afternoons was in the midway between her house door and her university, she lived at about 90 meters from there and attended classes at an institute 60 meters beyond there. Guede lived behind via Garibaldi and there she recalls to have met a black man she describes as “beautiful”, and they promised to meet each other again after she would be back from Germany; despite this, she never revealed his name.<snip>

Every bit hearsay, and virtually all false. It's one thing to listen to casual gossip, but when the subject of the gossip is on trial for murder, it is necessary to be skeptical and analytical.
 
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Cm’on, here it’s just a reality check.
If Amanda Knox was an upper class buisness woman above 30, with a well-paid job, living with a husband ad children, a regular social life with her acquaitned and relatives, who would have dinner every night at 9 pm, in a cool apartment in some other neighborhood downtown… then, her profile and lifestile would appear ‘not compatible’ with a scenario of her dating Rudy Guede for a casual drug-fuelled sex party at a students’ house in via della Pergola.

Amanda Knox was a 20-year old whom Sollecito described as “only interested in pleasure” and completely detached from reality, who described her student life as “excessive”. She is a person who would drift around Europe looking for fun, would have casual sex with people he met on a train and skip her house cleaning tasks. Witnesses described her as having an attitude of showing off to get others attention, being perceived as inopportune, often annoying and un-empathic, making monologues about herself instead of conversation, as having something compulsive in her bringing men at home (she was even seductive and jealous about Meredith’s boyfriend). She praised the lifestyle of ‘casual’ sex outside any relation regardless of boyfriends. She knew Guede since at least a month before she met Sollecito, and Guede used to say “I’d like to screw her”. She had a part time casual job where she performed poorly so that Lumumba immediately changed her mansions. She had some psychological issues, obvious from details like her copying Laura’s piercings. She admitted to be smoking a lot of weed that night and to be together with a guy (Sollecito) who was recorded at the Prefect office of Bari as a heavy drug consumer, and recorded at his middle school for having injured a girl with scissors. Her phone number was in the cell phone of a drug dealer and they exchanged telephone contacts (the drug dealer in question was accused of giving drug to female students in exchange of sex). The place where Guede would spend his afternoons was in the midway between her house door and her university, she lived at about 90 meters from there and attended classes at an institute 60 meters beyond there. Guede lived behind via Garibaldi and there she recalls to have met a black man she describes as “beautiful”, and they promised to meet each other again after she would be back from Germany; despite this, she never revealed his name.

Your (folks') objections were that she was not a ‘party girl’ because she was a honor student (a curiously unproven claim, btw) and that the reason and circumstances in which she gave her phone number to the drug dealer are not known in detail.
It’s self-evident that such objections are ludicrous.
You may try to disagree on the interpretation of some of the details listed above, but you can perfectly see the basic data about the person’s profile.

The profile of Amanda Knox is just compatible with a scenario where she attended a sexual meeting with Guede at Via della Pergola. Every rational person can see that.
Just say it’s compatible and move on.

Machiavelli, thank you for commenting with this detailed information. I of course know from following your comments for some time that you have weighed behaviorial factors to help reach your conclusion of guilt or innocence. I also am sure you believe there is physical evidence and that the physical evidence is correct and accurate, even in the face of serious cricitisms or challenges about it being authentic and correct.

These phrases used by Raffaele: "only interested in pleasure" and "completely detached from reality". Do you know anything more specific about what Raffaele meant by it? Did he say more? Or is that it?
 
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No, Yimyammer, it is no joke. Rudy danced by himself on the dance floor while everyone else stopped for a moment of silence in memory of the slain girl. One could assume all eyes were on him.

I've heard this before but I don't think I ever saw a proper citation. It could be a distortion of this snippet which the PMFer "Popper" relayed from (I believe) TV coverage of the 2011 court case:

Popper at PMF said:
We could read from certain statements RG bothered girls and tried to kiss them.
There is a statement from one person [ABU .... ] "i never liked his manners, he took also cocaine and had precedents of molestin young girls" "there were voices he was stealing in discos" Julia davis said "they asked one minute of silence for MK we were dancing Rudy did not say anything".

Source page.

That doesn't say anything like "Rudy danced by himself on the dance floor while everyone else stopped for a moment of silence in memory of the slain girl", but you can see how the story might have grown in the telling.

I have been unable to find any reference to this incident on the internet apart from this one garbled snippet from PMF, so my current hypothesis is that Popper's second-hand account of a court statement is the source and that the claim is unsupported rumour.

If anyone has a better source I will of course potentially revise my view.
 
(...)
These phrases used by Raffaele: "only interested in pleasure" and "completely detached from reality". Do you know anything more specific about what Raffaele meant by it? Did he say more? Or is that it?

This is the letter (multiple sheets, a "diary") Sollecito writes to his father about Amanda (he wrote the letter in Nov. 2007):

«Che cosa dire di Amanda, l'ho conosciuta a un concerto e la prima impressione che ho avuto era quella di una ragazza interessante, mi guardava più e più volte, cercava di scrutare qualcosa nel mio sguardo, come un interesse particolare. Poi mi siedo accanto a lei per parlare e mi accorgo che le sue impressioni sulla musica erano strane perché non si concentrava sulle emozioni che suscitava, ma sul ritmo. Lento, veloce, lento. Nel periodo in cui stavamo insieme era sfuggente, penso che lei era fuori dal mondo. Vive la vita come un sogno, è fuori dalla realtà, non riesce a distinguere sogno da realtà. La sua vita sembrava puro piacere, ha un contatto con la realtà quasi inesistente. In mezzo a questo triste e deprimente panorama globale, dalla finestra oltre il muro c'è la torre di avvistamento sull'orizzonte si vede una casetta montanara. Bene, quella casetta sopra la pianura mi strappa un timido sorriso di speranza. Non so se è giusto che debba pagare così tanto per non riuscire a focalizzare i momenti nel tempo, durante il primo novembre. Ma dopo quest'esperienza, credimi papà, non toccherò più una canna in vita mia. Adesso posso dire che ho capito che significa farsi una passeggiata all'inferno. E prego Dio che non mi accada più. Aspetto fiducioso i risultati degli inquirenti che, so per certo essendo innocente, dimostreranno ciò che è successo. Che io dentro quella stanza non c'ero quando la povera Meredith è stata uccisa. Già, la povera Meredith. Una ragazza tranquilla che scambiava poche parole con gli altri, con cui avevo pochi rapporti, ma che certamente non meritava la fine che ha fatto. Spero che presto i suoi genitori possano avere giustizia, sapere perché e come e per mano di chi è morta la figlia. Questa esperienza mi ha aperto gli occhi. Io sono abituato ad avere la casa sempre pulita, il termosifone caldissimo quando fa freddo, un letto caldissimo, un'automobile da favola, mangiare il meglio del meglio che la terra possa offrire, avere il computer più performante del mercato e una famiglia che mi ama».

(...)

«Qui dentro c'è gente che non ha niente di tutto ciò. C'è un letto di spugna sudicio, un bagno piccolissimo con l'acqua calda, un termosifone che funziona solo poche ore al giorno, due coperte e un televisore da tredici pollici. Qualcosa da mangiare può essere davvero oro che cola. Mi riesce difficile entrare nell'ottica, ma è così che ho cercato e cerco di ripagare la mia vita e quello che mi ha dato. Ma mi accorgo che non è mai abbastanza e dovrò lavorare ancora sodo per far qualcosa per gli altri e per me stesso; penso che la chiave sia volersi bene e voler bene. Perché tutto quello che abbiamo non ci è dovuto da nessuno. Questa esperienza è servita almeno a questo. Passo il tempo a cercare di parlare con medici, psicologici, educatori e guardie, cercando di capire che cosa possa essere successo quella notte e nella certezza assoluta di non avere fatto nulla di male. Cerco di capire quale è stato il ruolo di Amanda in questa vicenda.
L'Amanda che ho conosciuto è un'Amanda che prende la vita con leggerezza. L'unico suo pensiero era la ricerca del piacere in ogni momento. Ma da qui a poter anche solo immaginare che lei sia un'assassina diventa impossibile. Ho letto il suo memoriale. Alcune cose che lei racconta non sono vere. Ma non so perché le dice. Per esempio non è quella sera che abbiamo fatto la doccia insieme. Mi rendo conto che se siamo finiti tutti in carcere è anche colpa della mia leggerezza riguardo ai fatti di quella sera. E anche dal fatto che ci siamo fumati parecchi spinelli e mi dispiace tanto. Ascolto e penso, penso intensamente a tutto ciò che mi è capitato e mi circonda, il mio cervello ora mi sembra una macchina inarrestabile che cerca di ricollegare e immaginare. Mi fermo poi per non impazzire e penso ai miei amici che sono fuori. Penso a te papà, a quello che stai subendo, al dolore che ti ha provocato questo figlio stupido e leggero. Sto pagando per la mia superficialità, e questa volta vorrà dire che pagherò fino all'ultimo centesimo. La realtà è che la mia vita adesso è cambiata per sempre e non c'è modo di tornare indietro. Posso solo raccogliere i pezzi smarriti e cercare di rincollarli. Anche in questa situazione per me terribile, cerco di cogliere il lato positivo, altrimenti vivere sarebbe impossibile ».
 
I've heard this before but I don't think I ever saw a proper citation. It could be a distortion of this snippet which the PMFer "Popper" relayed from (I believe) TV coverage of the 2011 court case:



Source page.

That doesn't say anything like "Rudy danced by himself on the dance floor while everyone else stopped for a moment of silence in memory of the slain girl", but you can see how the story might have grown in the telling.

I have been unable to find any reference to this incident on the internet apart from this one garbled snippet from PMF, so my current hypothesis is that Popper's second-hand account of a court statement is the source and that the claim is unsupported rumour.

If anyone has a better source I will of course potentially revise my view.


Thanks, I think its far more useful when assertions like this are well sourced
 
This concept that the police should be able to monitor the conversations of the people who are conducting an investigation on behalf of a criminal defendant is just absurd. No doubt, they were also listening in on conversations with counsel.


No doubt at all...Why its almost as if the police and prosecutor operated as some sort of corrupt abusive mafia. Ignoring laws, ignoring defendants rights, making stuff up in court, leaking stuff to the press...huh!
 
This is the letter (multiple sheets, a "diary") Sollecito writes to his father about Amanda (he wrote the letter in Nov. 2007):

(...)

Take into consideration, Strozzi, that at this time the police had convinced Raffaele that Amanda was involved in the murder, and he was trying to rationalize that, just as Meredith's friends did when they were questioned about whether they had ever noticed anything strange about Amanda.

He also had just been arrested and imprisoned and was, no doubt, trying to find the right things to say that would get him released.
 
Amanda Knox was a 20-year old whom Sollecito described as “only interested in pleasure” and completely detached from reality, who described her student life as “excessive”. She is a person who would drift around Europe looking for fun, would have casual sex with people he met on a train and skip her house cleaning tasks. Witnesses described her as having an attitude of showing off to get others attention, being perceived as inopportune, often annoying and un-empathic, making monologues about herself instead of conversation, as having something compulsive in her bringing men at home (she was even seductive and jealous about Meredith’s boyfriend). She praised the lifestyle of ‘casual’ sex outside any relation regardless of boyfriends. She knew Guede since at least a month before she met Sollecito, and Guede used to say “I’d like to screw her”. She had a part time casual job where she performed poorly so that Lumumba immediately changed her mansions. She had some psychological issues, obvious from details like her copying Laura’s piercings. She admitted to be smoking a lot of weed that night and to be together with a guy (Sollecito) who was recorded at the Prefect office of Bari as a heavy drug consumer, and recorded at his middle school for having injured a girl with scissors. Her phone number was in the cell phone of a drug dealer and they exchanged telephone contacts (the drug dealer in question was accused of giving drug to female students in exchange of sex). The place where Guede would spend his afternoons was in the midway between her house door and her university, she lived at about 90 meters from there and attended classes at an institute 60 meters beyond there. Guede lived behind via Garibaldi and there she recalls to have met a black man she describes as “beautiful”, and they promised to meet each other again after she would be back from Germany; despite this, she never revealed his name.

The problem with the above collection of innuendos is twofold.

Firstly, we need to ask ourselves "If a corrupt and malicious prosecution wanted to traduce an innocent but otherwise average university student, is the above list of innuendos inconsistent with that theory?". None of them are terribly interesting or unusual.

Perugia is a smallish place to anybody who commuted around it would presumably pass close by some place Guded passed close by at some point, Perugia has a thriving drug culture supported by student customers so most students will presumably be one or two degrees of separation away from a drug dealer. Lots of twenty year olds turn out to be bad at a service job, copy an older acquaintance's wardrobe, smoke weed and validate casual sex.

Secondly we need to ask ourselves "Are these things associated in the criminological literature with sex murderers?". The answer is that they are not. Now if Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito were children of violent alcoholics and had histories of sadomasochistic sexual behaviour and impulsive violence then you would have a case, but they weren't.

So to sum up this list of innuendos has no significant evidentiary value, and is in no way inconsistent with an evil, stupid and frightened group of corrupt Italian officials trying everything in their power to set up an innocent victim as a scapegoat for their attempts to pervert the course of justice.
 
I've heard this before but I don't think I ever saw a proper citation. It could be a distortion of this snippet which the PMFer "Popper" relayed from (I believe) TV coverage of the 2011 court case:



Source page.

That doesn't say anything like "Rudy danced by himself on the dance floor while everyone else stopped for a moment of silence in memory of the slain girl", but you can see how the story might have grown in the telling.

I have been unable to find any reference to this incident on the internet apart from this one garbled snippet from PMF, so my current hypothesis is that Popper's second-hand account of a court statement is the source and that the claim is unsupported rumour.

If anyone has a better source I will of course potentially revise my view.

Sorry I am not able to cite an original source. I read most of the books in English about this case and have given some of them away. I also read many online articles (English).

There would have been many young people at the disco the night of Rudy's alleged dancing through a moment of silence, so it would seem possible that a reporter (Dempsy?) could have spoken with someone who said they were there and observed it.

I do agree that people become critical and derrogatory of others when they learn that the other is being accused of a serious crime. And bring up false memories or interpretations to put the accused in a bad light.

Amanda and Raffaele did not attend the candle-lit memorial service in the square that drew a large student crowd. After her arrest, people criticized Amanda for not participating and the critics made the worst of it. Few mention that Laura and Filomena also did not attend the candle-lit ceremony. Nobody criticizes them for not participating. All of the housemates were stressed from Meredith's murder and also exhausted from late nights spent at the police station. Amanda wanted to avoid answering private individuals' questions as she had been asked by the police early on not to discuss the case with others.
 
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Mach there is no evidence that rocks were thrown at cars. The neighbor that called the police said rocks were thrown at his house and at cars but nothing was seen by cops except rocks. I posted the police report and there is mention that rocks were seen lying around but no mention that a car was thrown at, much less that one was hit. We here, as you in Italy, love our cars. If someone damaged a car by throwing a rock at it, they would tell the police and file a report to make sure the damage is covered. (...)

Yes, no car was hit but these are details, Grinder. It was a rather wild party, people are not supposed to throw rocks on the street, no matter what consequence happens or doesn't happen. I think it was not a "noise" ticket, I think it's called 'disturbance' rather than noise, and think I it's not a "ticket", since it requires police minutes and report, and was on a police call.
But the details of the incident are obviously irrelevant. It was a party where something went out of contol and Knox was attending that party. It's just an element of personal history. She might have been a honour student (albeit, this claim is unproven) but she was not in a honourable situation that night.

If you haven't already posted the link to proof of Amanda having the coke dealer's phone number in her phone, please do.

I already did so, maybe a year ago or so.

Are there any official records, court or otherwise, that mention this dealer and the phone connections?

Not on the internet.

Do you think Meredith was an honor student with her lifestyle?

I have no idea.
Meredith had actually won an Erasmus scholarship, a real one, so it is a fact she was entitled to that.
I think she had a different lifestyle anyway, she was a different kind of person.
 
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I've heard this before but I don't think I ever saw a proper citation. It could be a distortion of this snippet which the PMFer "Popper" relayed from (I believe) TV coverage of the 2011 court case:

Source page.

That doesn't say anything like "Rudy danced by himself on the dance floor while everyone else stopped for a moment of silence in memory of the slain girl", but you can see how the story might have grown in the telling.

I have been unable to find any reference to this incident on the internet apart from this one garbled snippet from PMF, so my current hypothesis is that Popper's second-hand account of a court statement is the source and that the claim is unsupported rumour.

If anyone has a better source I will of course potentially revise my view.

I provided Candace Dempsey's book as a cite. Where she got it, I do not know

http://books.google.com/books?id=1q...=rudy guede dancing moment of silence&f=false
 
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