Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[kwill]

Oh, my. Here is the evolution of your -- I can't exactly call it "thinking--" your devious and defamatory claims and insinuations. All direct quotes from the last day or so.

1. Knox was a party girl
2. Abandoning university courses; then, decide move to another city without any university-planned study course, starting unrelated attending of a non-university institute by your own choice instead of following academic percourses, is that typical of a honor student?
3. But if you are not studying a university course, you can't be a honor student. Elementary.
4. she chose Perugia also because there was a ‘university’ (the University of Foreigneers) which she could attend without any academic arrangement.

And finally this:

The University for Foreigneers may offer certificate for proficiency in Italian language. It may offer study credits valid at other universities, but in an extremely limited set of subjects.

Now it has recently improved and developed also some real academic courses so maybe I should correct myself and say you are right if you say that now it's a university.

However, it mainly functions not as a university - its students are mostly language students not students of its academic courses - and Knox was not attending it as a university, but as a language school. She would be offered language proficiency credits. That she might later use in her study plan at the university of Washington.

But this can hardly be called an academic semester. It's a study for language certificates.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, sir. In the USA, the study of foreign languages and cultures is an academic discipline. You can major in Italian or French or German just as you can major in civil engineering or biochemistry. These are all academic courses. Is this not the case in Italian universities? Can a citizen of Italy earn a degree (not a language certificate) in German, or in English? If not, I can see why you're confused. My own American-born daughter has a BA in French. She spent part of her junior year in France, learning from native speakers in accredited courses. She then came home and finished her course work and graduated, just as Amanda Knox planned to do.

You've made an assumption that Amanda Knox could not be an honor student because she wasn't really a university student with an academic course of study. She was. You also assumed that she went to Perugia because she wanted to do drugs and have sex, because what else would a party girl have in mind? She went there, in fact, to learn Italian from native-speaking professors, and because she would be earning credit toward a degree at her home university at the same time.

That's the party girl agenda!

you make a claim, you word such claim as if it was a fact, and you have no interesting in knowing if it's true or not.

This "party girl, non-student, unserious, drifting to Perugia" business is a set of false claims, made by you. Are you interested in knowing if they're true or not?

 

[Bill Williams]

You may not have a moral judgment about it, but that doesn't stop you from using Amanda's personal history to smear her, just as Mignini did. Without making everything about Amanda's personality look bad, he had no case. (...)

To me it's not "bad", it's only compatible with a scenario of her involvement in a crime based on a contact/relation between her and Rudy Guede.

Aside from the fact that mere "compatibility" does not prove anything....

You seem to have missed Mary_H's point completely. No wonder. You're not sleeping these days and it is causing you to say embarrassing things.

Remember when I asked you if Andrea Vogt was an "approximate reporter" for reporting that the C&V report was before the Nencini court, mainly because of the results of the RIS Carabinieri report - that you witnessed during tour court attendance on Nov 6?

Your response was to say both:

- that the C&V report was, of course, in front of the Nencini court for consideration.
- that the C&V report was junked at the Hellmann verdict quashing.​

I was dying to ask you if this, then, made Andrea Vogt a "half-approximate reporter", but decided that was a tautology.

For mercy's sake, Machiavelli, get some sleep.

 

[Poppy1016]

I wonder what would happen if the court ordered independant experts, or The esteemed Judge Hillman were aware that they were being slandered and defamed by Mach, who is attending court sessions in the appeals court in Florence.

 

[acbytesla]

It really is amazing how Machiavelli is willing to throw everything under the bus to defame Amanda. He is throwing the reputation of one of his city's best schools to try and degrade Amanda. What I do like is how I actually present facts that Amanda wasn't "skipping out" of the UW to party in Italy. That in fact everything Amanda was doing was in line with Amanda's studies. That Amanda chose to attend University for Foreigners Program in Perugia to focus on learning Italian and about Italy's culture.

Machiavelli and any citizen of Perugia should be proud that the University for Foreigners Program can attract students from the University of Washington to learn Italian and about the culture in Italy. Instead, Machiavelli trashes it, just so he can trash Amanda.

 

[Bill Williams]

For the sake of accuracy, Machiavelli, these are your actual, confused posts about what Andrea Vogt reports.

Is she mad at you or something?

C&V report is before the Nencini court. Why shouldn't it be?
But it doesn't have any credibility before the Nencini court; they didn't appoint them, and Nencini is not Hellmann.
It's like any other report submitted by the defence experts and the parties experts reports. They are all there, before the court.
But why do you use the word "valid"? What does that mean? If you mean the various reports are all equally valid, then C&V are as valid as the others, too. The Stefanoni reports are valid too. The Novelli report is valid too. The Torricelli report is valid too.
But this is probably not what you mean by "valid".

Can you take the highlighted part and communicate it to your guilter buddies.....?

It's obvious that the C&V is before the court. Even if it wasn't, the defence would have a right to submit it. They have the right to submit everything they want. Thus, including the C&V report. I'ts obvious.

But what the implication of that? C&V are no longer court appointed experts. So what's the point?
It is indeed before the Nencini's court, and it is discredited and died with the quashing of Hellmann verdict. That is also obvious.
How could the C&V's arguments survive to that Supreme Court ruling?

What is the meaning of, "it died with the quashing of the Hellmann verdict," if it is, as you contradictorally say, "It's obvious that the C&V is before the court."

I once accused you of in essence saying, "no comment", when asked about Andrea Vogt's reporting from the courtroom on Nov 6. I withdraw that slanderous allegation that you had had no comment. Apologies.

You're now dealing with bafflegab.

Why is it so difficult for you to report what Andrea Vogt said about the Nov 6 court session? Acc. to your respective tweets, you were both there! Did you see her? Did she see you?

 

[Bill Williams]

I wonder what would happen if the court ordered independant experts, or The esteemed Judge Hillman were aware that they were being slandered and defamed by Mach, who is attending court sessions in the appeals court in Florence.

It really is amazing how Machiavelli is willing to throw everything under the bus to defame Amanda. He is throwing the reputation of one of his city's best schools to try and degrade Amanda. What I do like is how I actually present facts that Amanda wasn't "skipping out" of the UW to party in Italy. That in fact everything Amanda was doing was in line with Amanda's studies. That Amanda chose to attend University for Foreigners Program in Perugia to focus on learning Italian and about Italy's culture.

Machiavelli and any citizen of Perugia should be proud that the University for Foreigners Program can attract students from the University of Washington to learn Italian and about the culture in Italy. Instead, Machiavelli trashes it, just so he can trash Amanda.

There's no reason to quote these two messages, really, except that they are good questions.

Eh, Machiavelli - why are you defaming everything in your path, in a frantic attempt to defame Amanda Knox?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

This "party girl, non-student, unserious, drifting to Perugia" business is a set of false claims, made by you. Are you interested in knowing if they're true or not?

Of course he's not. He's into the Foxy Knoxy jerk-off fantasy. Can't you tell?

This is exasperating to anyone who knows her at all. I didn't before this whole thing happened. I don't know her well now, but enough to know she is not a party girl by any means, not even close. She's friendly, but she is also introspective and somewhat bookish.

She enjoyed smoking a little dope.

Presumably she enjoys sex, a good meal, a good night's sleep... being as how she's a mammal and all.

 

[acbytesla]

Delete

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Presumably she enjoys sex, a good meal, a good night's sleep... being as how she's a mammal and all.

 

[kwill]

Of course he's not. He's into the Foxy Knoxy jerk-off fantasy. Can't you tell?

This is exasperating to anyone who knows her at all. I didn't before this whole thing happened. I don't know her well now, but enough to know she is not a party girl by any means, not even close. She's friendly, but she is also introspective and somewhat bookish.

She enjoyed smoking a little dope.

Presumably she enjoys sex, a good meal, a good night's sleep... being as how she's a mammal and all.

I only know her through her book and her interviews. I admire her very much and hope that she can somehow reclaim her life, and that goes double for Raffaele, who is the very definition of an honorable man. I believe that the people who spend their time trying to find reasons to believe that these two are guilty are sadists.

Not just bullies, not just misinformed, but sadists -- people who derive pleasure from the suffering of others. It's sickening to witness.

 

[acbytesla]

I only know her through her book and her interviews. I admire her very much and hope that she can somehow reclaim her life, and that goes double for Raffaele, who is the very definition of an honorable man. I believe that the people who spend their time trying to find reasons to believe that these two are guilty are sadists.

Not just bullies, not just misinformed, but sadists -- people who derive pleasure from the suffering of others. It's sickening to witness.

You know I don't know if I admire Amanda. I certainly don't dislike her. I don't know her. I hope she can weather this storm. But I am in full agreement about Raffaele. He truly proved himself to be a stand up guy.

I hope both of them and Ryan Ferguson can all live fulfilling lives.

 

[RandyN]

Of course he's not. He's into the Foxy Knoxy jerk-off fantasy. Can't you tell?

This is exasperating to anyone who knows her at all. I didn't before this whole thing happened. I don't know her well now, but enough to know she is not a party girl by any means, not even close. She's friendly, but she is also introspective and somewhat bookish.

She enjoyed smoking a little dope.

Presumably she enjoys sex, a good meal, a good night's sleep... being as how she's a mammal and all.

This whole school business is puzzling. IIRC AK was attending the school for language in Perugia in preparation for her more involved studies in Rome...at least that is what she said in her book.

The defaming of AK is something originally authored by Mignini. He spent years leaking crap to the press because he understood that he had no case. Now he sees the writing on the wall...and his internet English translator and main supporter is using the same "idiot logic" to attempt to influence yet one last court. They desperately need something to present to this new prosecutor, but so far I don't see the prosecutor playing ball with the old idiot squad. Frankly, I never understood being able to sign on so many to such a silly proposition in the first or second or even third place...

 

[RandyN]

We actually figured out that this as a bit of pro-innocence fanfic a while ago. Stefanoni made her trip to fabricate find new evidence well before the shoeprint debacle.

The difference between us and the guilters is that when we realise we've got something wrong, we fix our story and don't repeat the mistake.

You know I thought we had done the same thing too except that just last night I read in AK book that not even a full 24 hours passed between the time that RS father presented on TV the shoe print evidence he and his family had figured out and the very next day the prosecution leaks the bra clasp DNA thingy. Ka Nox claims that she watched this on TV in her jail cell. I will re-read this part to see if I have messed that up.

Not so much that the shoe print disappeared and the next day the CSI team returns to Perugia...more like they already had the DNA data before the shoe print was disproved. They simply leaked that data the next day...

I agree there is no reason to play the Mignini game. After all it is clearly only a fools game. One that always reveals itself...although I am amazed that this weak silly fact-less game got as much traction as it did. How can all of Italy be afraid to say..."Mignini...that is stupid...sit down and shut up...you are embarrassing us."

 

[LondonJohn]

Hi LondonJohn,

Was Meredith funded by Erasmus but not part of their program? In other words was this report in the DM confirmed by subsequent investigation? Was this question brought up elsewhere?

I honestly don't know. It just caught my eye that a spokesman for the Erasmus Programme was directly quoted saying that back in early November 2007. I can't on the face of it see how or why either a) the Erasmus spokesman would/could have said that if it were not true, or b) the Mail could have misinterpreted or misreported the Erasmus spokesman.

In any case, it's obviously of no real relevance to the case, other than being a slightly intriguing side-issue. As I said, it just caught my eye - especially in the context of the ongoing efforts of certain pro-guilt commentators to burnish Meredith's memory to the point of near-parody....

 

[Rolfe]

Has it ever occurred to any of you guys who are really au fait with this case to write their own book about it? Not the personalities or the gossip, but the Actual. Bloody. Evidence?

If I can do it for Lockerbie, one of you guys, or maybe a partnership, could do it for the Kercher case. Or are you gathering material and waiting for the final verdict?

Rolfe.

 

[GreyFox]

Whoever thinks that Guede would be properly described as "beautiful" should really have themselves examined by a Dr. And I mean a real one.

If Guede was good looking then women at the bar wouldn't be complaining of him hitting on them as it was reported. Instead they would be dating him. How one takes a leap to say he's good looking and assumes Amanda's talking about him in her diary is such a huge leap. You would think she would have written something in her diary saying his name and how they met again. Or at least mentioned it to someone. It's one of those puzzle pieces you try to force to go but know it's just not the right piece. There is nothing to support it.

Almost as far a stretch as assuming they took that stupid Knife to the flat in a hand bag. I just cant do it. It may as well have been King Arthur's sword if we are going to pretend and deviate from what we know to be fact. The fact is this is not the Knife. The bloody print on the bed sheet is an elephant in the room if ever I've seen one. It's hard for me to carry a conversation on with someone who says to pretend it's not there. It's just too big too ignore. I have no reason to pretend there was two knives or three or four. First find this knife and prove to me it's not the only one.

Imagining things is how Patrick and this whole case got derailed. I mean no disrespect to others. Its just my opinion. Carry on !

 

[acbytesla]

If Guede was good looking then women at the bar wouldn't be complaining of him hitting on them as it was reported. Instead they would be dating him. How one takes a leap to say he's good looking and assumes Amanda's talking about him in her diary is such a huge leap. You would think she would have written something in her diary saying his name and how they met again. Or at least mentioned it to someone. It's one of those puzzle pieces you try to force to go but know it's just not the right piece. There is nothing to support it.

Of course Rudy isn't the guy she was talking about and your point that Amanda would have mentioned how exciting it was to get close to this "beautiful specimen" is dead on. Mach acts as if Rudy was the only black man in Umbria.

Almost as far a stretch as assuming they took that stupid Knife to the flat in a hand bag. I just cant do it. It may as well have been King Arthur's sword if we are going to pretend and deviate from what we know to be fact. The fact is this is not the Knife. The bloody print on the bed sheet is an elephant in the room if ever I've seen one. It's hard for me to carry a conversation on with someone who says to pretend it's not there. It's just too big too ignore. I have no reason to pretend there was two knives or three or four. First find this knife and prove to me it's not the only one.
[/QUOTE]
Yea, this makes me angry too. you would think the simple fact that this knife doesn't match that stain would eliminate it. The idea that this was a murder involving multiple knives is bloody insane. Ryan Ferguson's war against the State of Missouri ended yesterday. He too was wrongfully convicted and the evidence against him while horrible, was nothing compared to this case.

When I read the pablum of the guilters about how this "cooking knife? was the murder weapon, I want to smack them upside the head and use the old Ferris Bueller line. "Where's your brain? "

 

[Kestrel]

The case against Amanda is a grand conspiracy theory that replaces a simple theory of a crime. So why not invent a second knife so that Amanda can be the real killer? And while you are at it, cook up a motive based on nothing at all.

 

[andreajo]

If Guede was good looking then women at the bar wouldn't be complaining of him hitting on them as it was reported. Instead they would be dating him.

Whoa! You are painting with a pretty broad brush here, suggesting that any woman would be delighted to date any good-looking man who hit on her in a bar. There are lots of reasons that a woman might complain about being hit on in a bar that have absolutely nothing to do with the appearance of the person doing the hitting-on.

 

[Diocletus]

I honestly don't know. It just caught my eye that a spokesman for the Erasmus Programme was directly quoted saying that back in early November 2007. I can't on the face of it see how or why either a) the Erasmus spokesman would/could have said that if it were not true, or b) the Mail could have misinterpreted or misreported the Erasmus spokesman.

In any case, it's obviously of no real relevance to the case, other than being a slightly intriguing side-issue. As I said, it just caught my eye - especially in the context of the ongoing efforts of certain pro-guilt commentators to burnish Meredith's memory to the point of near-parody....

This is just Erasmus putting distance between itself and the murder of a student. Erasmus didn't want the bad press and potential liability of a student being murdered. It seems to me that Kercher probably got some funds from Erasmus, but was not an actual Erasmus participant in the sense that Erasmus helped with the course of study and living arrangements, and the Erasmus program wanted to be darn sure that the world was aware of that.