Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[devnull]

Yo know...A+ still has that $700. Just think, a quick essay and you're drinking top shelf all weekend.

Insider sources tell me the hottest look this season is pairing an ilk shirt with a fedora.

Good luck out there and remember to use protection..No wait, scratch that, That sort of common sense may fall under the 'victim blaming" umbrella......... but I'd still hate to hear that you got the clap anyway.

dude, seriously! where the hell was my trigger warning!!!!

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I just looked at the schedule for that con, there is absolutely NOTHING on the schedule that I would think of attending. They should call it Free Thought Blog free for all rather than Skepticon. Ugh.

I'm only attending to drink with friends and because it's only a 3 hour drive from St Louis and an hour from the farms. And it's free.

I'll probably only attend half the sessions, if that.

 

[devnull]

actually, what does one do if trigger warnings make one irrationally angry?

Should people give a trigger warning that theyre going to give a trigger warning?

 

[qwints]

We know nothing about those pictures. It looks like they came from a magazine and for all we know those photos could have been shot in 1970 and those girls in the photo could have grown up and become virginity testers themselves.

This is a point I've been trying to make - the photo Ophelia posted originally came from a google image search and I couldn't find the source for the photo from that. I didn't take the blog you posted earlier as proof that the photo was of a Zulu virginity test, but obviously such tests have taken place in that culture. In other words, we're talking about something without knowing who's doing it, where it's happening or even when it happened. That's not a way to achieve anything.

Moreover, I think we all need to listen to the experiences of people in that community. Consider Ngaitana and their cultural context. Assuming virginity testing is a form of gendered oppression, and I think it probably is, it doesn't do anyone any good to denounce it in the abstract.

 

[Wildy]

@Empress, that looks like feminism to me. I like humanism. Then again I don't see rampant misandry or misogyny at A+, perhaps you could point it out, or not. From your rant we would appear to be working for the same causes whatever you choose to call it.

That would depend on the type of feminism though.

I noticed this "workshop" on the upcoming Skepticon schedule.

Getting It On at the Con: How to Get Lucky Consensually with Miri Mogilevsky

That title sounds like something a PUA would use, only it's run by a woman.

I think I'll be in the bar, trying to get laid the old fashioned way - getting a girl drunk.

RAPIST! How dare you take advantage of an adult who is perfectly capable of making their own choices when it comes to drinking.

I just looked at the schedule for that con, there is absolutely NOTHING on the schedule that I would think of attending. They should call it Free Thought Blog free for all rather than Skepticon. Ugh.

I can see a few things that I'd probably attend if I had the chance. The getting laid at the con workshop is one that I wouldn't attend.

 

[ApostateltsopA]

Only by feminisms and feminists own definition, not in practise. Just because Kent Hovind claims to be a scientist and love science doesn't mean anything unless he can demonstrate his understanding of the word is the same as ours.....

Well I agree with you that Kent Hovind is no scientist. I'm a little shaky on where the feminisms have gone all anti man, bring em down give me the stuffs. I'm sure you have an example handy, preferably not Dworkin, I can happily denounce her now for you if you like. That woman had some awful things to say.

Well there's something you could write a book about! I brought up a few issues here that show feminism and the FTB Atheism+ crowd aren't good for women either.

See I went through that post, even watched the video. I don't see any references to A+. It does mention the traffic at FTB, which was interesting, I watched the video, don't normally bother with the guy, but when I looked closer at his info graphic I couldn't see much detail, so I opened the full YouTube browser and looked for his sources.. which were sadly absent.

You are clearly biased heavily against A+ and FTB by your posts, I'm clearly biased for, usually. Since you can write a book though, can you pull a few links? Remember we were looking for anti-man bias at A+. I'd also look at links for the web traffic thing, I'd like to know how the engine identified gender, how many are unknown.. if it has a category for gender queer but really it would be a side topic. Nothing on your post seems to be about A+.

Condemnation of Ophelia for posting the image has been universal.

Here's the problem. There's nothing from Zulu women and girls objecting to this practice. There's couple of quote upthread, from Zulu women, in support, but the anti side is nowhere to be seen. Without this its pure speculation as to the mindset of the victims which is natural assumption, of course, of defining this practice as rape and assuming the victims are reacting in the same way a westerner would....

I agree I don't know much about the victims. I'm not focused on the amount of trauma they felt as the picture was being taken, I've said elsewhere I think it is quite possible that they didn't identify the event as traumatic at the time. That doesn't make it, not rape to me. Others have called it sexual assault, the consensus seems to be that it is at the very least a tool of oppression. I haven't followed up much on them, because stopping the practice, while it would be nice, is not within the list of things I can accomplish, at this time. There was one harm I could work on though and that was removing at least one of the copies of the image with the faces unblurred. That was successful. I think the conversation about how best to protest while treating the victims as humanely as possible and with dignity was also useful. You may disagree.

OK the scene in the documentary. Our host spends some time in a remote Amazon village with a tribal people who have a rather odd custom.....

Wow! Odd is not the word I'd use for that custom. For what it's worth, I agree that life does not always have trigger warnings, and there will be awfulness easily found as soon as one chooses to look. I don't see that as an argument against using them though, when we can. There is no dichotomy that because we can't always have one we should never have one. I'm not sure you meant to imply that. I don't know that anyone has claimed the issue on this mess was TW or lack thereof, though I would have liked a hidden option on Ophelia's post, I had to be very careful when I visited that site.

I'm in complete agreement that the reason behind the examination is obscene, however the actual process of the examination as something that is routine and nonsexual really precludes defining it as sexual assault.

This makes no sense to me. That is like saying that the process of rape is no different than the process of sex. (Not all rapes, but you get the idea I hope)

I didn't make an equivocation. It's literally a medical examination, albeit an unnecessary one with poor intentions.

That is another equivocation. See above I suppose.

This is a point I've been trying to make - the photo Ophelia posted originally came from a google image search and I couldn't find the source for the photo from that. I didn't take the blog you posted earlier as proof that the photo was of a Zulu virginity test, but obviously such tests have taken place in that culture. In other words, we're talking about something without knowing who's doing it, where it's happening or even when it happened. That's not a way to achieve anything.

Moreover, I think we all need to listen to the experiences of people in that community. Consider Ngaitana and their cultural context. Assuming virginity testing is a form of gendered oppression, and I think it probably is, it doesn't do anyone any good to denounce it in the abstract.

I think you made it, but I'm unclear what you mean by being useless to denounce it in the abstract. You think stating, "FGM is bad" is bad or specifically "X group of women shouldn't have that done to them" or something else?

I recognize I can't affect the culture where the picture took place. That is why I focused on seeing the victims treated as I would expect any picture of victims to be treated, by sheltering their identity and by using the image only with care or not at all, I still think the image was unnecessary as used.

That would depend on the type of feminism though.

The only kind I recognize is the one that seeks equality. If a person calls themselves feminist but works to reverse patriarchy, as opposed to end it, I would take them no more seriously in the use of that word than I would someone who called themselves a pacifist yet used violence to end violence.

Well, one person did, anyway. Then it was lost in amongst all the sturm und drang.

One thing I've noticed, reading through that thread - Apos comes across as a lot more reasonable and considered over here than s/he does over there. It's interesting how the prevailing culture of a board can change the tone and nature of someone's posts.

I've always wondered why the things I say there don't get talked about here. Is there some specific thing I sound like a reactionary about? I'd be happy to discuss it.

 

[ApostateltsopA]

Oh and someone asked if any at A+ had specifically fought against FGM, or virginity checks in Africa. Not that I am aware of, has anyone here? How would you suggest going about such a thing? My take is it would take far more time and money than I have access to.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I've always wondered why the things I say there don't get talked about here. Is there some specific thing I sound like a reactionary about? I'd be happy to discuss it.

I don't see the value in going into specifics. But, in general, here you come across as someone who is intelligent and who posts considered opinions. Over there it's more like you're venting before you've given yourself the time to think.

Which is fine, everybody needs a place to vent. But I hope you can understand how posting in a venting-type way will give people who aren't invested in that particular culture the impression that your opinions are less thought-through and therefore less able to take seriously, than posting in a more considered way does.

Oh and someone asked if any at A+ had specifically fought against FGM, or virginity checks in Africa. Not that I am aware of, has anyone here? How would you suggest going about such a thing? My take is it would take far more time and money than I have access to.

The point was that you said that talking about how things like virginity checks and FGM were fought was an "additional step". I'm just pointing out that if it's all that the people at A+ do, then it's not an additional step, it's the only thing being done.

As for what can be done, there's plenty of charities out there that deal with exactly this kind of thing. It may not be much, but I'm sure they'd be glad of a donation of a tenner or so.

Which, again, isn't to say that you're under any obligation to do anything. We all have lives, and we all have limited resources, and we can't all support every cause we'd like to, not even with small donations. I'm just not keen on people not doing anything, yet claiming that they are.

 

[squealpiggy]

This makes no sense to me. That is like saying that the process of rape is no different than the process of sex. (Not all rapes, but you get the idea I hope)

No, I don't get the idea at all, this statement makes no sense. Virginity tests are clearly misogynist, indicative of a patriarchal society and intended to treat female sexuality as a commodity.

Doesn't make it rape, and claiming that it does cheapens the term.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't see the value in going into specifics. But, in general, here you come across as someone who is intelligent and who posts considered opinions. Over there it's more like you're venting before you've given yourself the time to think.

Which is fine, everybody needs a place to vent. But I hope you can understand how posting in a venting-type way will give people who aren't invested in that particular culture the impression that your opinions are less thought-through and therefore less able to take seriously, than posting in a more considered way does.

Just to add to this, you also seem far less forthright here. You ask more questions of people, and phrase things in a way that seems that you're more willing to listen to the answers. Again, this makes you seem far more reasonable than your posts over there.

 

[Dissolution]

That is another equivocation. See above I suppose.

Merely stating it as such does not make it true.
You seem to be under the impression that because you disagree with something you can change the actual reality of what it is.

You have no reason to believe that the examination is a sexual act.
The reasons behind it may well be stupid and oppressive, but that doesn't make it sexual assault or rape.

 

[Stout]

This is a point I've been trying to make - the photo Ophelia posted originally came from a google image search and I couldn't find the source for the photo from that. I didn't take the blog you posted earlier as proof that the photo was of a Zulu virginity test, but obviously such tests have taken place in that culture. In other words, we're talking about something without knowing who's doing it, where it's happening or even when it happened. That's not a way to achieve anything.

Moreover, I think we all need to listen to the experiences of people in that community. Consider Ngaitana and their cultural context. Assuming virginity testing is a form of gendered oppression, and I think it probably is, it doesn't do anyone any good to denounce it in the abstract.

I dead ended on trying to source those photos as well. I tried to find a larger copy in the hopes of deciphering the text in the lower right corner but, alas, no bingo. It's a safe assumption to make that the photos are relatively recent as the testing/ceremonies are still going on today and appear to be growing in popularity.

This year, there's a claim of 60 000 virgins taking part in the annual reed dance.

More than 60 000 maidens are expected to participate in this year’s event, which is run by the province’s department of arts and culture, with other departments providing life skills and other training for the participants over the course of the event.

 

[qwints]

I think you made it, but I'm unclear what you mean by being useless to denounce it in the abstract. You think stating, "FGM is bad" is bad or specifically "X group of women shouldn't have that done to them" or something else?

I think I'm conflicted here. On one hand, I'm fine with stating general moral principles. On the other, I think generic statements like "FGM is bad" aren't useful unless the context of FGM is understood. That seems inconsistent to me, and I'm not sure how to reconcile that.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I can see a few things that I'd probably attend if I had the chance. The getting laid at the con workshop is one that I wouldn't attend.

I'm thinking about going and sitting in the back. Just for the lulz.

 

[Kochanski]

I'm thinking about going and sitting in the back. Just for the lulz.

It would be interesting to know who actually attends the thing and what in the world they talk about.

Somehow I think this would be more painful to attend than the reading at a local bookstore I attended by James Van Praagh, which was also a free event.

 

[Stout]

I agree I don't know much about the victims. I'm not focused on the amount of trauma they felt as the picture was being taken, I've said elsewhere I think it is quite possible that they didn't identify the event as traumatic at the time. That doesn't make it, not rape to me. Others have called it sexual assault, the consensus seems to be that it is at the very least a tool of oppression. I haven't followed up much on them, because stopping the practice, while it would be nice, is not within the list of things I can accomplish, at this time. There was one harm I could work on though and that was removing at least one of the copies of the image with the faces unblurred. That was successful. I think the conversation about how best to protest while treating the victims as humanely as possible and with dignity was also useful. You may disagree.

Labeling the girls as victims is something we did and by we I mean people here in North America, far removed from the realities of the situation. This is why we need statements form Zulu women and girls who are opposed to the practice, women and girls who consider themselves victims of rape or sexual assault so we can agree with them. Otherwise, we're just imposing out standards, our cultural mindsets on "the other".

This is one of those instances where seeing the world through a very narrow social justice lens doesn't do anybody any good at all. When an argument appeared in the A+ forums that tried to introduce a perspective that ran counter to the dominant thinking, what happened? That poster was banned for daring to disagree with the SJ vision of how the world works, delivering a mighty blow against skepticism and critical thinking. That poster has now joined the slymepit because of it. Ophelia Benson is less than impressed with A+ and goodness knows what they're discussing in the secret backchannel at FtB but A+ best not be expecting any more free promotion for their fundraising efforts, like ilk shirts.

For all we know, the "victims" might just be laughing at the stupid white people and their prudish sensitivities and might even be disappointed that their picture was taken down from both Facebook and FtB.

Wow! Odd is not the word I'd use for that custom. For what it's worth, I agree that life does not always have trigger warnings, and there will be awfulness easily found as soon as one chooses to look. I don't see that as an argument against using them though, when we can. There is no dichotomy that because we can't always have one we should never have one. I'm not sure you meant to imply that. I don't know that anyone has claimed the issue on this mess was TW or lack thereof, though I would have liked a hidden option on Ophelia's post, I had to be very careful when I visited that site.

I had another descriptor in mind but considering who I was addressing I figured I'd avoid the ableist language lest it led to a derail. The show did come with the standard trigger warning but those have become so commonplace that they're really only noticed by people with small children in the room. The TW thing was in reference to Avicenna's post about life not having trigger warnings. If A+ want's to have them then by all means but their over use will only lead to them being ignored or, as I like to refer to movies and TV that warn of............... the good stuff.

 

[Giz]

Labeling the girls as victims is something we did and by we I mean people here in North America, far removed from the realities of the situation. This is why we need statements form Zulu women and girls who are opposed to the practice, women and girls who consider themselves victims of rape or sexual assault so we can agree with them. Otherwise, we're just imposing out standards, our cultural mindsets on "the other".

I disagree. Sometimes victims are too caught up emotionally or culturally to realize how much they are being victimized. For example, we could condemn a manipulative cult for preying on vulnerable people even if none of their converts felt like complaining.

 

[Kochanski]

I disagree. Sometimes victims are too caught up emotionally or culturally to realize how much they are being victimized. For example, we could condemn a manipulative cult for preying on vulnerable people even if none of their converts felt like complaining.

While it might be true that they are caught up emotionally or culturally, we still don't know what the cultural reason is and what these girls & women feel about the practice. We know very little beyond the photo itself.

It is funny that the A+ers are all over this but any other criticism of culture practice of brown people is viewed as bad and colonialism. A+ers can leap all over this one practice but we dare not challenge any other cultural practice.

They are willing to jump all over something that jives with their social justice views.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It would be interesting to know who actually attends the thing and what in the world they talk about.

Somehow I think this would be more painful to attend than the reading at a local bookstore I attended by James Van Praagh, which was also a free event.

I think it's going to be 90% nerd guys, hoping to learn some nerdy pick up lines. The other 10% will be angry man-hating lesbians, hoping to learn new ways to be outraged.

 

[Kochanski]

I think it's going to be 90% nerd guys, hoping to learn some nerdy pick up lines. The other 10% will be angry man-hating lesbians, hoping to learn new ways to be outraged.

Like I said, more painful than the James Van Praagh reading and I was fuming mad throughout that.