Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

FWIW, Edx does not speak for me when it comes to gender issues.

 

[Edx]

@Empress, that looks like feminism to me.

Only by feminisms and feminists own definition, not in practise. Just because Kent Hovind claims to be a scientist and love science doesn't mean anything unless he can demonstrate his understanding of the word is the same as ours.

So feminists can claim they are about equality till the cows come home, and guys like AronRa can keep clutching to dictionaries and say... see! It says feminism is equality! These feminists over here also say they are about equality! Therefore thats what it means, and therefore if you're not a feminist you're a sexist!... all he likes, but that doesn't make it any different, and its just as circular and fallacious. There's also the other aspect, one that is related, as to what possible justification there could be for using a gendered word to be synonymous to egalitarianism in the first place.

The reality is that the word "equality" as used by feminists is used much like that of a child might say they want to have "equal rights" to that of adults. What the child means by "equal" here is a desire get all the things real or imagined that they perceive the adults as having the right and privilege to do that they don't. The reality of having actual "equal rights" of adults would mean losing the rights and special treatment and protection and provision afforded only to children that adults don't have. The child doesn't see this, they only want to be able to eat as many sweets and chips as they want, to stay up as late as they like, and watch any TV they feel like, etc. The child here sees rights like a hierarchy, with adults on top and them wanting to be brought up to that level. Feminists see things in a similar way, with men on the top of the ladder with 100% of the rights and privileges and them being X% down the ladder (depending on how fundamentalist a feminist you are). They don't recognise that the social dynamic doesn't actually work this way. And additionally they also don't realise what it would really be like if women were treated "equal" to how men are treated, this would be a world they would consider horrific. Just consider how they treat sexual harassment and sex crimes, one rule for women, another for men.

I don't see rampant misandry or misogyny at A+, perhaps you could point it out, or not. From your rant we would appear to be working for the same causes whatever you choose to call it.

Well there's something you could write a book about! I brought up a few issues here that show feminism and the FTB Atheism+ crowd aren't good for women either.

FWIW, Edx does not speak for me when it comes to gender issues.

Which part of my posts do you disagree with?

Well here are some points to consider if you wanted to explain how you don't agree with me.
Not counting the previous one on Free Thought Blogs linked in my quoted post above. Feel free to say if you agree on any point as you didnt specify:

1. Justify the argument that if you are an anti-sexist you have to be a feminist, and that if you are not a feminist you must be a sexist.

2. Justify the argument that because a dictionary may define feminism as "equality" and a feminist can say they are for "equality rights", that this is a valid argument to prove that they are indeed egalitarians.

3. Justify using a gendered word as a term to be synonymous with egalitarianism in the first place.

4. Explain how feminists can be said to see "equality with men" as egalitarian when they habitually argue for treatment of women that is different to that they expect of men. The relationship between alcohol intake and intoxication and sexual contact is a great example of this. If women were treated equally to men are, then it wouldn't matter how drunk they got society wouldn't consider them victims and expect them to take full responsibility for all their actions. Which is why if a man has sex while drunk even if she had sex with him while he was unconscious (yes, this is actually possible, and has occurred before) not only will society not care, find it funny, blame him for not controlling his drink, tell him he should be grateful, but the law will say if she gets pregnant he has to pay child support to the woman who raped him. Even better than that, no statistics on rape would ever include him as a victim, and intentionally so! Yes all those famous rape statistics you see thrown around by feminists, used by them to claim rape is a male behaviour used to justify anti-rape campaigns to "teach men not to rape" and "what consent means" either don't bother collecting any of this data on female's forcing men to have sex and don't mention it, or in the RARE case of the CDC in 2010 did attempt to collect data on it, defined it as sexual violence, but still intentionally said they were not going to include it in the rape figures. Do feminists that use these arguments about alcohol and sex really want to be treated equally to men are? No, they do not. That is evidentially true, that is demonstrably true.

Now, having said that to preempt the inevitable "not all feminists are like that!" response, it is certainly true that this doesn't mean feminism can't mean what they claim it means. It can really mean genuine equality. There actually are a few feminists out there that seem to prove they are actually interested in true egalitarianism, of course they are also against mainstream feminism for almost all the reasons I've given. But even if we completely accept that all those who identify as feminists really honestly are about true equality, I refer back to point 3 above, you're still left coming up with a logical justification for using a gendered word as a term to be synonymous with egalitarianism

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'm not interested into getting into a tiresome debate about specifics. I just wanted it on record that your opinions are your own and that you do not speak for me on this subject.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

So, there's this: Social Dysphoria: The Game

A little odd, and not a terribly good game, but why not?

 

[Stout]

Late to the party but, hot damn, Empress, that was a stupendous post.

 

[Edx]

I'm not interested into getting into a tiresome debate about specifics. I just wanted it on record that your opinions are your own and that you do not speak for me on this subject.

I appreciate that, but for my record, I'd honestly like to know exactly what part of my post you found disagreeable. What I find interesting are those that seem to have no problem criticising FTB and Atheism+'s conduct much of the time in all the right and accurate ways, yet still can't seem to bring themselves to look over the trees and see the rest of the forest. Do you also not agree with Empress who clearly recognises these things and refuses to identify as a feminist? I wonder.

 

[Stout]

Condemnation for this practice has been pretty damn universal at A+.

Condemnation of Ophelia for posting the image has been universal.

Here's the problem. There's nothing from Zulu women and girls objecting to this practice. There's couple of quote upthread, from Zulu women, in support, but the anti side is nowhere to be seen. Without this its pure speculation as to the mindset of the victims which is natural assumption, of course, of defining this practice as rape and assuming the victims are reacting in the same way a westerner would.

We know nothing about those pictures. It looks like they came from a magazine and for all we know those photos could have been shot in 1970 and those girls in the photo could have grown up and become virginity testers themselves.

This clash of cultures is also noted on Avencenna's post

It's us here in the west assuming these girls consider themselves victims and without something form Zulu from Zulu civil society stating their objections to this practice then we, in the west had better tread carefully in assuming that the indigenous population is incapable of governing themselves in post apartheid South Africa.

FWIW..the practice is currently illegal in SA so the only thing "we" can do about it is "signal boosting" ie posting on the internet.

OK the scene in the documentary. Our host spends some time in a remote Amazon village with a tribal people who have a rather odd custom. Upon getting her first period, a girl is locked, alone, in a hut for TWO YEARS with her food and toilet waste being passed through a hole in the wall. No human contact at all save what she can gear through the walls. On the night of her coming out, the village women get her fishfaced drunk then turn the village boys on her who torment her with giant dick props. Giant props that even have blood smeared on the end, just for effect.

My whole point of posting about that is that things some people might find horrifying are liable to pop up anywhere, at anytime with no "trigger warnings"

 

[Stout]

So feminists can claim they are about equality till the cows come home, and guys like AronRa can keep clutching to dictionaries and say... see! It says feminism is equality! These feminists over here also say they are about equality! Therefore thats what it means, and therefore if you're not a feminist you're a sexist!... all he likes, but that doesn't make it any different, and its just as circular and fallacious. There's also the other aspect, one that is related, as to what possible justification there could be for using a gendered word to be synonymous to egalitarianism in the first place.

Now that's just too weird.

I was just reading a post on some guy's blog where he talks about being swayed toward feminism by AronRa's talk at the Sexy Secular Conference. You know, the conference that boasted about having a police presence. The writer was swayed by that dictionary definition and was previously content with referring to himself as a humanist. I guess AronRa must be at the "101" level.

Try using a dictionary definition like the one for, say racism, over at A+ and you'll see just how much the SJW crowd values those definitions. From Arguments to Avoid.

Arguments based solely on Merriam-Webster, Oxford or even the Urban Dictionary

In general, definitions used here are sociological definitions, as provided in our glossary. Any argument that requires redefining a word away from its agreed-upon definition or protesting a previously agreed-upon definition should be avoided.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I appreciate that, but for my record, I'd honestly like to know exactly what part of my post you found disagreeable. What I find interesting are those that seem to have no problem criticising FTB and Atheism+'s conduct much of the time in all the right and accurate ways, yet still can't seem to bring themselves to look over the trees and see the rest of the forest. Do you also not agree with Empress who clearly recognises these things and refuses to identify as a feminist? I wonder.

I'll answer.

I refuse to call myself an A+er for the reasons that have been stated by empress. I agree with the concept of social justice, I agree with the idea of having a safe space (but not THEIR idea of one) and I agree with a lot of humanist and feminist ideals. The problem comes with you attempting to claim that the A+ lunatics speak for all feminists and that simply isn't the case. It is in fact exactly like claiming "I'm not a feminist because Dworkin said all het sex is rape."

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I appreciate that, but for my record, I'd honestly like to know exactly what part of my post you found disagreeable. What I find interesting are those that seem to have no problem criticising FTB and Atheism+'s conduct much of the time in all the right and accurate ways, yet still can't seem to bring themselves to look over the trees and see the rest of the forest. Do you also not agree with Empress who clearly recognises these things and refuses to identify as a feminist? I wonder.

If you look back over my posts in this thread you'll note that not only do I let plenty of things from A+ and FTB slide by with little or no comment, but that I'm equally happy to criticise or disagree with the posters in this thread, again in varying levels of detail, should I happen to disagree with them and feel that such disagreement is worthy of comment.

 

[squealpiggy]

See above, also, this is not a medical examination. There is no health benefit to this practice it is a method of subjugating and dehumanizing women. That is a very disgusting equivocation you just made.

I'm in complete agreement that the reason behind the examination is obscene, however the actual process of the examination as something that is routine and nonsexual really precludes defining it as sexual assault.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The thing is, wasn't the whole "too much colonialism to even think about criticising the religion of brown people" rant about the fact that practices such as these cannot be commented on? Sure, it's cultural, rather than religious, but isn't that worse?

Of course, I don't expect consistency from A+, but I do wonder whether anybody over there has even noticed.

 

[Dissolution]

See above, also, this is not a medical examination. There is no health benefit to this practice it is a method of subjugating and dehumanizing women. That is a very disgusting equivocation you just made.

I didn't make an equivocation. It's literally a medical examination, albeit an unnecessary one with poor intentions.

 

[Stout]

The thing is, wasn't the whole "too much colonialism to even think about criticising the religion of brown people" rant about the fact that practices such as these cannot be commented on? Sure, it's cultural, rather than religious, but isn't that worse?

Of course, I don't expect consistency from A+, but I do wonder whether anybody over there has even noticed.

Oh yea, they've noticed. See Flewellen's post.

It's a no win for SJ so the only available avenue for discussing this at all is to frame the girls as rape victims and go on the offensive about revealing their faces and what they think might happen should one of the girls stumble across this picture.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I noticed this "workshop" on the upcoming Skepticon schedule.

Getting It On at the Con: How to Get Lucky Consensually with Miri Mogilevsky

Alternate title: How to get laid without actually talking to a girl

I think I'll be in the bar, trying to get laid the old fashioned way - getting a girl drunk.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Oh yea, they've noticed. See Flewellen's post.

Well, one person did, anyway. Then it was lost in amongst all the sturm und drang.

One thing I've noticed, reading through that thread - Apos comes across as a lot more reasonable and considered over here than s/he does over there. It's interesting how the prevailing culture of a board can change the tone and nature of someone's posts.

 

[Kochanski]

I noticed this "workshop" on the upcoming Skepticon schedule.

Getting It On at the Con: How to Get Lucky Consensually with Miri Mogilevsky

Alternate title: How to get laid without actually talking to a girl

I think I'll be in the bar, trying to get laid the old fashioned way - getting a girl drunk.

I just looked at the schedule for that con, there is absolutely NOTHING on the schedule that I would think of attending. They should call it Free Thought Blog free for all rather than Skepticon. Ugh.

 

[Humes fork]

Alternate title: How to get laid without actually talking to a girl

I really wish it was like that.

 

[Stout]

I think I'll be in the bar, trying to get laid the old fashioned way - getting a girl drunk.

Yo know...A+ still has that $700. Just think, a quick essay and you're drinking top shelf all weekend.

Insider sources tell me the hottest look this season is pairing an ilk shirt with a fedora.

Good luck out there and remember to use protection..No wait, scratch that, That sort of common sense may fall under the 'victim blaming" umbrella......... but I'd still hate to hear that you got the clap anyway.

 

[Stout]

Well, one person did, anyway. Then it was lost in amongst all the sturm und drang.

One thing I've noticed, reading through that thread - Apos comes across as a lot more reasonable and considered over here than s/he does over there. It's interesting how the prevailing culture of a board can change the tone and nature of someone's posts.

I've noticed that too. A+ culture seems to be a little much for the FtBloggers.