General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[barehl]

I'm asking if there are mass murder events in history that approximate some of the claims at the death camps not because I believe that nothing happens unless it has happened before. I'm asking that question because some of the death camp claims are so far beyond anything which has happened before that they conflict with that which is reasonably possible. If there are other mass graves that have achieved a density of bodies on the scale of the density of bodies found at the death camps, then the problem is that I have underestimated the limits of human ingenuity. But just because that density has never been achieved anywhere else does not (in and of itself) mean that it is impossible.

I'm trying to figure out your question. As far as the number of people in mass graves, you look at any event with a high death rate. Several come to mind. The Black Plague in the Middle Ages had mass graves. They had mass graves in Belarus due to starvation after the Bolshevik Revolution. I seem to recall mass graves under Pol Pot in Cambodia. That death toll was estimated at 2 million. There were mass graves in Rwanda after the genocide there which was 0.5 - 1 million.

There have been other mass deaths that did not have mass graves. The takeover of China by the Mongols resulted in 10 million dead. There was the Great Chinese Famine from 1958-1961. That accounted for at least 15 million dead.

So, what are you saying is unusual or unexplained?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

The Churchill quote is a written response in July 1944 to reading the 1944 account of Auschwitz escapees. If he later still believed that there was "no doubt that this is probably [note the qualification creeping in as he writes] the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world", why would it be excluded from his History of the War?

Churchill also doesn't mention "Ultra". "Ultra" won the war. Are you saying "Ultra" didn't exist because Churchill doesn't mention it?

What do you and your fellow holocaust denier, Clayton Moore, think the "scientific machinery" that Churchill wrote about is?

On the De Gaulle article from 1967...... There is no reference in the article to a general policy of not mentioning the gas chambers, but to a decision not to mention them in a specific speech in Poland during the visit, supposedly for diplomatic reasons.

Are you claiming De Gaulle's policy of rebuilding West German and Polish relationships and reconstructing Europe ended after his speech? What a strange short policy you are claiming.

"De Gaulle, determined not to heighten the tensions between Poland and West Germany avoided mentioning the Auschwitz camp in an airport speech."

"Making no direct mention of the Germans De Gaulle replied by saying France and Poland should co operate for peace, for the sake of all men and for the construction of Europe as a whole.

 

[000063]

Thought turning and not mentioning the Germans is proof of gassing and gas chambers? What a master stroke of logic.

Nice thought fabrication.

No, a "master stroke of logic" - and I use it in the same sarcastic sense you do - is taking a quote clearly referring to the Nazis and Holocaust and pretend it's not because it doesn't specifically mention the Nazis and gas chambers.

This, as it happened, is a mistake. I'll explain shortly.

Wiesel never mentioned it early on because it was a lie that hadn't become the bodyguard of Zionism yet. Wiesel even chose to hightail it with the Germans to avoid the Russians even after they, the Germans, allegedly gassed 3 million Jewish children, women and men.

Nobody mentioned Wiesel. Are you trying to wiesel away from the subject?*

The three, Churchill, De Gaulle and Eisenhower, didn't mention gassings or gas chambers in their writings because, knowing they were fabricated lies, they didn't want their families humiliated and their legacy besmirched for eternity.

What, with the Zionists backing them? How many people have been "ruined" by perpetuating said lies? If De Gaulle personally went to these "fake" gas chambers them and laid flowers there, that equates to, y'know, actively endorsing the "myth". I'm not sure why De Gaulle couldn't simply believe the hypothetical "myth", just like most of the people in the world do. And if the Zionists had so much power and influence, how were the Nazis kicking mud in their people's faces in the first place?

Also, it sure is interesting how you - and, it seems, other deniers - trying to equate "not mentioning gas chambers specifically in their memoirs" with "didn't believe the Holocaust existed at all". Oh, and not actually saying what "scientific machinery" was being referred to, despite directly being asked.

And so, you turn from Scylla and fall onto Charybdis; Churchill was actively referring to a report about Auschwitz, as I found because I Googled the quote, not ignored it. Also;

'I like the idea of the Jews trying to get the murderers of their fellow countrymen in Central Europe, and I think it would give a great deal of satisfaction to the United States.'

In October 1944, as further news about the killings at Auschwitz reached the West, the Polish government in exile asked for an official protest. The foreign Office was reluctant to respond, but Churchill was not. 'Surely,' he wrote, 'publicity given about this might have a chance of saving the multitudes concerned.'

Whoops, looks like De Gaulle and Churchill both openly acknowledged the alleged "hoax". Wanna go three-for-three on being wrong? Heck, according to some people, Eisenhower ordered pictures of concentration camps to be taken because he figured there'd be deniers. Heck, he went there himself.

* Incidentally, a quick Google brings me to the Wikipedia page for Night, which reveals that Weisel and his dad didn't choose to go with the Germans, they were forced to go on a death march along with 0,000 others.

 

[000063]

Oh, I see. Clay, you seem to have misread the denier playbook. The line is that E, C, and DG didn't mention the gas chambers in their memoirs. It's still a special pleading argument, given that all three men actively endorsed the "hoax", but slightly less obvious.

Also, according to Wiesel, his mother and sister were sent to the gas chambers (Night, pg 27). You're merely attempting a big ol' argument from ignorance. And not a very good one.

 

[KDLarsen]

Are you claiming De Gaulle's policy of rebuilding West German and Polish relationships and reconstructing Europe ended after his speech? What a strange short policy you are claiming.

"De Gaulle, determined not to heighten the tensions between Poland and West Germany avoided mentioning the Auschwitz camp in an airport speech."

"Making no direct mention of the Germans De Gaulle replied by saying France and Poland should co operate for peace, for the sake of all men and for the construction of Europe as a whole.

It's worth adding that De Gaulle made that speech less than 2 months after thoroughly planting his foot in his mouth, by giving an off-the-cuff remark at another speech he gave in Canada ("Vive le Quebec libre!"), that pretty much resulted in the Canadian government telling de Gaulle he was no longer welcome there.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

I'm trying to figure out your question. As far as the number of people in mass graves, you look at any event with a high death rate. Several come to mind. The Black Plague in the Middle Ages had mass graves. They had mass graves in Belarus due to starvation after the Bolshevik Revolution. I seem to recall mass graves under Pol Pot in Cambodia. That death toll was estimated at 2 million. There were mass graves in Rwanda after the genocide there which was 0.5 - 1 million.

There have been other mass deaths that did not have mass graves. The takeover of China by the Mongols resulted in 10 million dead. There was the Great Chinese Famine from 1958-1961. That accounted for at least 15 million dead.

So, what are you saying is unusual or unexplained?

It's the number of bodies that were buried within the space in which they were buried. The victims of the Black Death died over a period of several years and their mass graves were spread out all over Europe. The mass graves in of Pol Pot's victims were spread out across Cambodia and they too were filled over a period of several years. At Treblinka, 700,000 people were murdered in gas chambers and buried in mass graves. After they were buried, Himmler ordered that evidence of the mass graves be eliminated so all the bodies were dug up. The bodies were reduced to ash on open air pyres and then dumped back into the pits where the bodies had been initially buried. All of this activity--killing in gas chambers, burying, digging up, burning, and reburying--took place within 13 acres of the "extermination area" of the camp between July 1942 and October 1943. The cremation operation itself took place between February and October 1943.

What is unusual to say the least is the number of bodies processed within the space and time in which they were by employing technology no more complex than a fire. The fact that our knowledge of this event derives from a dubious Polish/Soviet report from the 1940s and the eyewitness testimony of a few survivors and perpetrators does not inspire confidence.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

So, what are you saying is unusual or unexplained?

It's the number of bodies that were buried within the space in which they were buried.

Captain Howdy? Can you please write down the volume of "space" that you consider as unusual and citations on how you calculated this space to allow you to make this consideration?

No one here has estimated the space of all the discovered and yet to be discovered mass graves. How have you done so?

 

[MaxMurx]

Not knowing why my posting with the original quotations including translation was censored here: my numbers of the volume of the Katyn mass graves is not from Goebbel's radio announcement but from the official German 300+-page report: "Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn" (Official Material about the mass murder of Katyn) page 31.

According to the report 4134 dead bodies had been autopsied of which 2885 had been positively identified. In June 1943 the work had to be halted due to hygienic reasons and massive insect problems during the warm summer.

The count of 3000 dead bodies in the first mass grave was used for an estimation of the content of the other 6 graves which had been opened, dimensions being known. When the work had to be halted an eigth mass grave was found, its content being completely unknown.

It thereore is incorrect that the Germans had expected to find 20.000 dead bodies and were "disappointed" only to have found 4000.

They had counted 4.000 dead bodies until June 1943, had found another burial site. The expectation of a number of 20.000 dead bodies to be found in the end results from the known number of Polish offciers missing at the time being.

http://www.katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=831

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Captain Howdy? Can you please write down the volume of "space" that you consider as unusual and citations on how you calculated this space to allow you to make this consideration?

I consulted standard reference sources on the death camps, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, for the dimensions of the mass graves. Yitzak Arad's book is the only source that I could find that gives useful descriptions of the layout of the camp and of the mass graves within the camp. I have made the assumption that knowledge of the basic physical structure of the death camps is a prerequisite to a criminal trial of the perpetrators of the death camps. Unknown but important details of the physical structure would surely be brought to light during these trials. As these trials were held in the 1960s and 1970s and the Arad book was published in 1987, I assume that his book would incorporate the most accurate data available. When Arad says that Treblinka had five mass graves that were 50 meters by 25 meters by 10 meters, I believe him.

If you believe that the former director of Yad Veshem published inaccurate information about the death camps, during his tenure as director of Yad Vashem, and you have better information available, please share it. Otherwise, I will trust Yad Vashem.

You also cannot focus on the size of the mass graves to the exclusion of everything else. What makes the death camp mass graves so remarkable is not merely their size or the density of bodies but also area within which the mass graves were concentrated and the time during which the Treblinka camp was transformed from empty ground to a death factory and back to empty ground. You must also consider the scientific machinery--an old Russian submarine engine and fire--that was employed by the Germans to achieve this remarkable success. You must consider the unprecedented density of bodies in the graves were achieved by starved, beaten, terrified Jews who dragged thousands of random sized bodies from the gas chamber and carefully arranged them in a pit everyday. You must also consider that these remarkable events are known primarily through eyewitness testimony of less than a hundred people.

No one here has estimated the space of all the discovered and yet to be discovered mass graves. How have you done so? [/COLOR]

I, as much as any man, am not privy to future discoveries. I can only base my opinions on knowledge that is currently known. Perhaps you can explain how you justify the description of Treblinka as a death camp considering the 700,000 yet to be discovered Jews who transited through Treblinka to destinations further East?

 

[Dcdrac]

I see the old katyn diversion tactic getting another dust off.

Yes the polish officers were murdered by the Russians, and yes the Nazis did murder millions of innocents.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Captain Howdy? Can you please write down the volume of "space" that you consider as unusual and citations on how you calculated this space to allow you to make this consideration?

I consulted standard reference sources on the death camps, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, for the dimensions of the mass graves. Yitzak Arad's book is the only source that I could find that gives useful descriptions of the layout of the camp and of the mass graves within the camp. I have made the assumption that knowledge of the basic physical structure of the death camps is a prerequisite to a criminal trial of the perpetrators of the death camps. Unknown but important details of the physical structure would surely be brought to light during these trials. As these trials were held in the 1960s and 1970s and the Arad book was published in 1987, I assume that his book would incorporate the most accurate data available. When Arad says that Treblinka had five mass graves that were 50 meters by 25 meters by 10 meters, I believe him.

Captain Howdy? In this very thread we have discussed the Treblinka mass graves found by Caroline Colls. You already know that more than five have been found. Why did you ignore this evidence in your considerations? In addition, you haven't answered my question. What volume of space for mass burials have you used in your considerations?

You must consider the unprecedented density of bodies in the graves were achieved by starved, beaten, terrified Jews who dragged thousands of random sized bodies from the gas chamber and carefully arranged them in a pit everyday.

Are you now suggesting that there was no Germans supervising, beating and ordering the slave workers?

You must also consider that these remarkable events are known primarily through eyewitness testimony of less than a hundred people.

I see, and the 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka was not compelling evidence to you because?

I can only base my opinions on knowledge that is currently known.

So why did you ignore Colls?

Perhaps you can explain how you justify the description of Treblinka as a death camp considering the 700,000 yet to be discovered Jews who transited through Treblinka to destinations further East?

What destinations further east? What trains took them further east? What German units escorted the prisoners further east? What food did they eat? Why were their clothes taken off them at Treblinka? Who guarded them at their new locations? Why is Treblinka a "transit camp" mentioned in German documents but no ongoing final resettlements ever mentioned?

You haven't actually got an alternative theory. You are pretending you have an alternative theory. Prove me wrong. Set out your alternative theory in detail and I will set out the current evidence for Treblinka II death camp. We can make an objective decision together as to which scenario has more compelling evidence.

 

[MaxMurx]

I see the old katyn diversion tactic getting another dust off.

Yes the polish officers were murdered by the Russians, and yes the Nazis did murder millions of innocents.

What does this have to do with the size and quantitative content of a mass grave? Are Russian and German mass graves so fundamentally different that from the volume and content of a Russian mass grave found by the Germans the content of a German mass grave found by anyone else cannot be calculated from its volume?

 

[thedopefishlives]

What does this have to do with the size and quantitative content of a mass grave? Are Russian and German mass graves so fundamentally different that from the volume and content of a Russian mass grave found by the Germans the content of a German mass grave found by anyone else cannot be calculated from its volume?

In a word, yes. Each mass grave is unique in its circumstances and requires different calculations. Even comparing the three Aktion Reinhard camps' mass graves to each other is technically invalid, because each camp had different grave conditions, with differing numbers of victims, and different timing of events such as cremation. You can't just do a bunch of math on a single known mass grave that suits your fancy, apply the same math to the death camps, and say, "See, I told you it was impossible."

 

[Dcdrac]

The quantative mass of a grave is just another diversion it is meaningless in the context of the enormous crime the Nazis carried, it really is like trying to count angels on a pinhead.

the evidence for the Nazis crime is well documented mostly in their own documents and testimonies.

references to the Katyn massacre is well know denier tactic to attempt to deflect attention from the crimes of the Nazis.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Captain Howdy? In this very thread we have discussed the Treblinka mass graves found by Caroline Colls. You already know that more than five have been found. Why did you ignore this evidence in your considerations? In addition, you haven't answered my question. What volume of space for mass burials have you used in your considerations?

I have not read this entire thread so I am maybe missing important research. What I have learned from a quick internet search is that Caroline Colls has not published a full report on her Treblinka findings. She was interviewed for a BBC program and some articles appeared in the mass media around the time of the broadcast. She has claimed to have found more than five mass graves but given us the dimensions of only one. The one grave is far too small to be significant.

In the one article I found, she makes a reference to a Holocaust revisionist having conducted research at Treblinka similar to hers. Another quick search of the internet and I find that this revisionist found no mass graves. His research has also not been published.

Until either of these researchers publish their findings, I will stick with Arad.

In addition, I did answer your question but I didn't do the math for you. I will now do the math. Seven hundred thousand people buried in five mass graves. Each mass grave is 50 meters by 25 meters by 10 meters. 5 X 50 X 25 X 10=62,500 cubic meters. 700,000/62,500=11.2 bodies per cubic meter.

Are you now suggesting that there was no Germans supervising, beating and ordering the slave workers?

Not at all.

I see, and the 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka was not compelling evidence to you because?

Because something like that would be compelling evidence. Compelling evidence such as that would be documented. We would have measurements of the depth of the ash. We would have forensic reports on an analysis of the ash. We would have pictures of the ash. We would have an estimate of how many bodies are represented by the ash. We would have more than a Russian saying there was some ash. I don't want to suggest that the Soviet Union was primitive, seething with vengeance and prone to lying but I want to see a report written by somebody other than the Soviet government and their Polish government puppets.

So why did you ignore Colls?

Asked and answered.

What destinations further east? What trains took them further east? What German units escorted the prisoners further east? What food did they eat? Why were their clothes taken off them at Treblinka? Who guarded them at their new locations? Why is Treblinka a "transit camp" mentioned in German documents but no ongoing final resettlements ever mentioned?

You haven't actually got an alternative theory. You are pretending you have an alternative theory. Prove me wrong. Set out your alternative theory in detail and I will set out the current evidence for Treblinka II death camp. We can make an objective decision together as to which scenario has more compelling evidence.

I don't pretend to have an alternate theory. All I know is that Sebastianus has presented us with information about cremation and mass graves that would cause any impartial intelligent person to question certain aspects of the death camps. Nobody has presented evidence that the information he presented is wrong. Nobody has presented evidence that he has described certain aspects of the death camps incorrectly. The only real response to the facts he has presented has been special pleading, emotional appeal, and attempts at deflection.

If you want to say that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed at these camps and whatever is left of remains is still there, you are the one who needs an alternative theory. Because the way you say this event went down would not work.

 

[EtienneSC]

Churchill also doesn't mention "Ultra". "Ultra" won the war. Are you saying "Ultra" didn't exist because Churchill doesn't mention it?

Obviously the argument can't be stretched that far.

What do you and your fellow holocaust denier, Clayton Moore, think the "scientific machinery" that Churchill wrote about is?

I can't speak for Clayton Moore, but I presume it is the technology - gas chambers, gas ovens, etc - referred to by the authors of the report he had just read - presumably by Alfred Wetzler and Walter Rosenberg ("Rudolf Vrba"), the latter of whom admitted to using "poetic licence" in his book I cannot forgive (1964) in his testimony in the 1985 Zundel Trial.

Are you claiming De Gaulle's policy of rebuilding West German and Polish relationships and reconstructing Europe ended after his speech? What a strange short policy you are claiming.

"De Gaulle, determined not to heighten the tensions between Poland and West Germany avoided mentioning the Auschwitz camp in an airport speech."

"Making no direct mention of the Germans De Gaulle replied by saying France and Poland should co operate for peace, for the sake of all men and for the construction of Europe as a whole.

De Gaulle was not in power from 1946 to 1958, so this motive would not apply to his War Memoirs published in three volumes 1954, 1956 and 1959 (but written in 1958 prior to his return to active politics).

 

[Matthew Ellard]

In the one article I found, she makes a reference to a Holocaust revisionist having conducted research at Treblinka similar to hers. Another quick search of the internet and I find that this revisionist found no mass graves. His research has also not been published.

That was the Australian holocaust denier Richard Krege. Richard Krege took some photos of himself with a GPR at Treblinka 14 years ago. He released one scan of raw data claiming there was no disturbed soil at Treblinka but never actually got the data processed nor was able to say where the data was being analysed. Oddly he completely forgot about the photos of bomb craters and mass graves photographed by Lukaszkiewicz's team. If you can find any grid map of where he searched at Treblinka you are doing better than all the holocaust deniers have when questioned for the last 14 years.

How did Richard justify making the claim there were no mass graves? We know that Colls found more than seven using the same equipment. What were you thought on this Captain Howdy? Do you think Richard Krege's claim of no soil disturbances and thus no mass graves is compelling?

Until either of these researchers publish their findings, I will stick with Arad.

I see. So although you know a professional forensic expert and their university team found more graves and are about to publish, you will continue to have doubts based on the five graves mentioned by Arad. But doesn't Arad clearly say there were more graves to be uncovered?

I will now do the math. Seven hundred thousand people buried in five mass graves. Each mass grave is 50 meters by 25 meters by 10 meters. 5 X 50 X 25 X 10=62,500 cubic meters. 700,000/62,500=11.2 bodies per cubic meter.

Well isn't that good news. We know a body fits into 0.069022m³ from this very thread. 11.2 bodies per cubic meter. 11.2 X 0.069022 = 0.77 cubic metres. You have not only proven that there was ample volume but as other graves exist we have an excess of space. Thank you Captain Howdy. Your considerations are now at an end.

We would have forensic reports on an analysis of the ash.

We have a Polish forensic reports on the ash

We would have pictures of the ash.

We have pictures of the human ash

We would have more than a Russian saying there was some ash.

Justice Lukaszkiewicz was Polish A Russian didn't lead the Polish criminal investigation.

I don't want to suggest that the Soviet Union was primitive, seething with vengeance and prone to lying but I want to see a report written by somebody other than the Soviet government and their Polish government puppets.

You did. You can read the report by Justice Lukaszkiewicz. Rachel Auerbach from the team lived in Israel from 1950. Is Israel also untrustworthy to you?

All I know is that Sebastianus has presented us with information about cremation and mass graves that would cause any impartial intelligent person to question certain aspects of the death camps.

You just proved Sebastianus was 100% wrong with your own mathematics in this very post.

Nobody has presented evidence that the information he presented is wrong.

The size of a boy is 0.069022m³ You calculated there must be 11.2 bodies per cubic meter. 11.2 X 0.069022 = 0.77 cubic metres. You proved Sebastianus is wrong.

 

[MaxMurx]

... because each camp had different grave conditions, with differing numbers of victims, and different timing of events such as cremation. .."

I thought we are talking about mass graves of uncremated dead bodies. If the above would be true, what is the complete discussion here about?

Concerning Katyn: There is neither an accusation against anyone nor any "denial" in giving simple metric measures of a pit containing dead bodies. Those at least roughly have something to do with the volumes of the cadavers. If a known grave contains 3.000 dead bodies another one with comparable dimension cannot contain one Million. Thats all, very simple.

 

[Dcdrac]

People who wish to know the facts about the Holocaust would do well to start here:

A good antidote to the denial drivel

http://www.holocaust-history.org/denial/revisionism-qa.shtml

 

[barehl]

At Treblinka, 700,000 people were murdered in gas chambers and buried in mass graves. After they were buried, Himmler ordered that evidence of the mass graves be eliminated so all the bodies were dug up. The bodies were reduced to ash on open air pyres and then dumped back into the pits where the bodies had been initially buried. All of this activity--killing in gas chambers, burying, digging up, burning, and reburying--took place within 13 acres of the "extermination area" of the camp between July 1942 and October 1943. The cremation operation itself took place between February and October 1943.

This is incorrect. The bodies were originally buried onsite in mass graves. When one would get full, they would open another one. The view of open grave was blocked by a ridge of dirt. These ridges are visible in the photos. When it was clear that the space onsite would be exhausted, crematory furnaces were built. This was initially one but was then expanded to three. These are also visible in photos. This then became the primary disposable of the bodies. I'm not aware that any bodies were dug up but there were disposal areas for cremated remains. So, again, I don't understand what the problem would be with space. They absolutely never buried 700,000 people. The vast majority of those were cremated. This is completely consistent with having to expand the crematories from one to three.