Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[moije2]

I think all religious cult meetings are bizarre. I think a Catholic nation inside Italy is bizarre. I do find that conference as BW describes it bizarre. I'm not convince that portrayal is accurate

If As Mach puts it, Mignini is saying nothing should be ruled out that is less of an issue for me than if he is promoting looking at Satanism from the git.

I think that BW's own beliefs may be coloring his POV. I think that people that believe inb Satan and practice satanism are nuts.

I think they are all either nuts or bizarre. That is why I am interested in what Mignini believes. That is relevant I believe to this case although it makes the discussion more difficult in that it is not tied to what I call hard evidence such the DNA and cell towers etc. If Mignini is a conservative Catholic and feels it is worthy to attend a conference on Satan in whatever form, then maybe that helps me understand his, and others of his mentality, penchant for magical thinking. Directly relevant to this case, but I truly do not expect a big discussion on that point. It is a simple point and has been made before I believe.​

Bill says Mignini said it was a satanic rite, Mach says no. It is for Bill to prove the point regardless if Mach says he has transcripts of court hearings. I don't really care as I think the point isn't germane to the appeal. The sex game is however.

That is easy to settle and we can be done with this point and move on. Bill can retract that he knows or can prove the use of the term "satanic ritual" or whatever other term is not liked or not proven, and he can instead say that Mignini said there was a sex game associated with Halloween and cultish behavior - as has been quoted herein. And then we that chose to can think of it as satanic, but not say it.​

I think that the conference is more about Italy than Mignini. I can understand why a murder committed on or near Halloween might have occult undertones. So what?

Bill keeps it up but can't give a source. He won't reveal why he is obsessed with Satan or satanic rites or if Mignini considered them at the beginning.

I think he has pretty much stated that he feels Mignini rode the tide of frenzy re satan to his advantage, but now is trying to distance himself from it because it is a liability of some sort now. I don't think that is so hard to see.


PS: Bill, any of the above that quotes or interprets you wrong you can set me straight. I am just saying how I filter the conversation...​

 

[acbytesla]

I think he has pretty much stated that he feels Mignini rode the tide of frenzy re satan to his advantage, but now is trying to distance himself from it because it is a liability of some sort now. I don't think that is so hard to see.


PS: Bill, any of the above that quotes or interprets you wrong you can set me straight. I am just saying how I filter the conversation...​

Well Grinder is right about one thing. That the those on Amanda and Raffaele's side has spoken far more about Mignini and Satan worship than he has. Never the less, Mignini started it. He brought the rope to the hanging party, he just didn't know the rope was for him.

 

[Grinder]

I don't know Grinder, journalism, PR, kind of a nuanced difference wouldn't you say?

I think it's important to recognize that Mignini is STILL going after Spezi. Spezi is fighting the way he knows how to fight. Through the press.

There is an old newspaper adage. Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.

[hyperbole]No one buys ink anymore. [/hyperbole]

It shouldn't be a nuanced difference but many here seem to accept PR people if they are on the same side of an issue.

Is it only Mignini going after Spezi?

Here's a quote from an article by someone from Bainbridge Is. -

Mignini abused the power of his office by trying to prevent the publishing so that a colleague’s book, on the same subject, could be published first. Preston’s efforts uncovered Mignini’s widespread duplicity that included wiretapping peers in Florence and several local reporters. The result was an Abuse of Office charge against Mignini and his colleague, the head of the Monster of Florence investigative squad, Michele Giuttari. Giuttari is now a cop-turned-author and both are angry with Preston and Spezi.

although Satanism, lies and deceit had been used as a tactic its courtrooms before, never had the world come to watch the proceedings.

The Perugians leaked cherry-picked information and incited the tabloids with a sordid fable of Satanism and murder; they titillated media jackals with a violent woman on woman sexual fantasy. They abetted a court case that destroyed two innocent lives and cost the Italian taxpayers millions

Giuliano Mignini, the then Public Minister, would portray Amanda as a Sexy Satanist, Raffaele and Patrick/Rudy would be her Lap Dogs

Vogt/Mach - Karen Pruett/BW ??

Here's something else:

The Rotary Club of Todi, led by President Fabio Catterini, has taken the initiative to promote a series of debates for the discussion of the issues of legality and justice through the analysis of the most controversial Italian judicial affairs, told by the protagonists.
The series of events for which you chose the title "Beyond a reasonable doubt", will start on Friday 18 October, at 17.30 hours, with the meeting to be held at the Foyer of the Teatro Comunale di Todi on "The Monster of Florence and the case Narducci "in the presence of Mario Spezi, a journalist and writer, author of the books "The Monster of Florence" and "Rolling hills of blood."

Where's the report on that?

I was trying to find out where he was charged and my whom. Ran into this other stuff. Do you think Karen gets her information from the same source as CD or do you think she speaks Italian and researched it herself?

Well I need to start the lemon chicken and roasted Brussel sprouts so perhaps someone else knows where and what he is charged with and whether Mignini is involved in the prosecution.

It is always possible and actual likely that nut cases find each other.

 

[Grinder]

I think he has pretty much stated that he feels Mignini rode the tide of frenzy re satan to his advantage, but now is trying to distance himself from it because it is a liability of some sort now. I don't think that is so hard to see.

​

There premise is that Mignini started the Satanic rite talk but BW can't prove it so he repeats it. I have no doubt that some in the PLE thought that the murder on Halloween with no obvious (to them) motive might involve something occult or heavy drug related. There is no doubt that someone got that aspect started and the press ran with it. No credible source has provided any attribution to Mignini for starting it or even saying the Satanic rite expression.

If he didn't say it and Spezi wrote that he did, I see nothing wrong or usual in distancing him from it, only correcting the record.

Well Grinder is right about one thing. That the those on Amanda and Raffaele's side has spoken far more about Mignini and Satan worship than he has. Never the less, Mignini started it. He brought the rope to the hanging party, he just didn't know the rope was for him.

Gee so close. If you can send a credible source (not Spezi, Barbie, Billie or Kercher) by PM I'll acknowledge it here for all to see.

 

[acbytesla]

[hyperbole]No one buys ink anymore. [/hyperbole]

I wouldn't say it was hyperbole. It was one, a joke and two....obviously.

Vogt/Mach - Karen Pruett/BW ??

I was trying to find out where he was charged and my whom. Ran into this other stuff. Do you think Karen gets her information from the same source as CD or do you think she speaks Italian and researched it herself?

I think Karen lives on Vashon,not Bainbridge. Frankly, I don't care how they hang Mignini. I'm just glad to know someone is on the job.

 

[RWVBWL]

Can'tcha even clean a knife?

You know Grinder, you tell me to drop the starch thing and I do, but then you keep bringing it up, again and again and again.
<snip>

Hiya acbytesla,
I was cruisin' thru The WayBack Machine again
and found an interesting article about a court session from the 1st murder trial:
Thursday, July 9, 2009
CORONER SARAH GINO ACCUSES
WHERE IS THAT BIOLOGICAL MATTER?
Doubts Raised on Stefanoni's Wonderlab

Here's a link to the story, just scroll on down to read it:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100806235828/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html


There is a photograph of that kitchen knife that the Massei Court says was the murder weapon:



Is that the starch that was supposedly Meredith's DNA that you write off?
If so, I find it hard to believe that Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito did not do a much better job of washing and cleaning that knife, heck, you can still see little specks of, whatever that is...

 

[RWVBWL]

Hmmmm, knives...

Speaking of knives:

These are the 2 knives that Raffaele Sollecito had in his knife collection.





It just boggles my mind to think that a Judge would seriously think that a dude would allow his new girlfriend of only a few days to carry around a big ol' kitchen knife for her protection, when he could easily just let her carry 1 of these cute lil' knives that he owned to help protect her.

Speaking of that big ol' kitchen knife, I found a photo of it as I kept on cruisin' thru The WayBack Machine.

See that persons hand at the bottom left corner of the photo?
It gives ya a good idea at how big that kitchen knife is!


Here's another link for ya:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100806...9/neutral-expert-dismisses-murder-weapon.html


That knife, surely if shoved all the way into Miss Kercher's throat,
would have nearly decapitated her, in my humble opinion! Do you agree?

And wouldn't an assailant stab that knife in,
all the way to the hilt?

 

[Machiavelli]

I thought just the RIS report would be deposited with the court tomorrow and then discussion of the results would take place on November 6? Has this changed?

It's correct.
When something is deposited with the court it becomes available to all paries thus factually public, so we will likely know about the results tomorrow.

I image both defense and prosecution will be given copies of the report and maybe we will hear something of its contents from one or both (or neither) side. We have already had some report earlier about the swab containing Amanda's DNA which I don't find particularly damning.

But it might be damning to any residual credibility of Dr. Conti and Prof. Vecchiotti.

 

[RWVBWL]

Speaking of that Big, ol' Kitchen Knife:

It just don't match!

Still on cruise control as I traveled the highway in The WayBack Machine while visiting The Old Perugia Shock,
I found these photographs of a bloody knife imprint that apparently Rudy Guede left on Miss Kercher's bed:


The trace J and O on the bed (above)




The trace O and an unsuccessful attempt to make it match The Knife. (above)

This was the 1st time I ever really looked at The Knife comparison,
you can easily tell that the murder weapon was shorter and had a much curvier blade tip...






As always,
here's the link, with some of the original comments still available to read:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110504...logspot.com/2008/10/pointing-at-murderer.html

 

[acbytesla]

It just don't match!

It really is hard to believe that hours upon hours upon hours have been wasted on this knife. This just goes to show that a good argument is not necessary for the crazies. Just as long as they can make an argument. Any kind of argument.

 

[Diocletus]

But it might be damning to any residual credibility of Dr. Conti and Prof. Vecchiotti.

Doubt it. I have yet to see anyone substantively refute C&V in any effective way. Complaining that a bunch of Podunk police departments have manuals that are more sophisticated than Stefanoni's procedures isn't a very good criticism. More like an own goal.

 

[christianahannah]

It's correct.
When something is deposited with the court it becomes available to all paries thus factually public, so we will likely know about the results tomorrow.



But it might be damning to any residual credibility of Dr. Conti and Prof. Vecchiotti.

How so? I don't mean that question as sarcasm. I am truly interested in your opinion concerning Conti/Vecchiotti.

Will all reports/results from the various experts, Stefanoni, Conti/Vecchiotti and the newest report be discussed/debated/questioned during the November 6 hearing or will the RIS report be the main consideration?

 

[RWVBWL]

It really is hard to believe that hours upon hours upon hours have been wasted on this knife. This just goes to show that a good argument is not necessary for the crazies. Just as long as they can make an argument. Any kind of argument.

Heya acbytesla:
Check out this photograph:


You would think that with all these kitchen knives found in Meredith's own kitchen,
that the investigators would have tried to see if 1 was better suited to match that bloody outline on Meredith's bed and then test the darn thing to see if it was the murder weapon!

 

[RWVBWL]

Mignini is a prominent local dignatary in certain circles in Perugia and would obtain sustenance from them. I would like to know more about how he fits in in the local legal establishment and also how he fits in in local Catholic circles. When he walks into a restaurant or banquet hall or political meeting what reception does he receive? By whom? Does he socialize with people of a certain political or religious persuasion?

Hi Strozzi,
IMHO, Nina Burleigh's book The Fatal Gift of Beauty
is a great read to learn more about Mignini and Perugia...

Link to a review:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-offers-new-clues-in-the-gruesome-murder.html

 

[acbytesla]

Heya acbytesla:
Check out this photograph:
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6634/391.JPG[/qimg]

You would think that with all these kitchen knives found in Meredith's own kitchen,
that the investigators would have tried to see if 1 was better suited to match that bloody outline on Meredith's bed and then test the darn thing to see if it was the murder weapon!

Seriously? All of those knives were at the cottage?
WHAT AN ARSENAL. LMAO. Unbelievable.

And they just picked a cheap cooking knife from Raffaele's cottage at random?

WOW!!!!! I hadn't seen this picture. I knew they had a few knives so it wouldn't have been necessary for Rudy and Amanda to bring a knife to the cottage.

 

[Bill Williams]

How so? I don't mean that question as sarcasm. I am truly interested in your opinion concerning Conti/Vecchiotti.

Will all reports/results from the various experts, Stefanoni, Conti/Vecchiotti and the newest report be discussed/debated/questioned during the November 6 hearing or will the RIS report be the main consideration?

Machiavelli thinks they are criminals.

His claim is somewhat based on one of the two being seen at lunch with one of the Sollecito's.

I'm not sure but they also may have been paid off by Masons.... or was that Hellmann?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Sleepers Awake?

But it might be damning to any residual credibility of Dr. Conti and Prof. Vecchiotti.

They made the right call not to amplify the sample, and the court made the wrong call to allow the amplification to go forward. The notion that there has been a new breakthrough in DNA testing in the last few years that somehow circumvents the problems of working in the low template region is extremely dubious. The CSC's claim that the quantity of DNA that is appropriate for information concerning embryos is the same as the amount of DNA that is appropriate for DNA forensics is astonishing. More generally, the Conti-Vecchiottis report could have been a wake-up call for Italian forensics, but the Court of Supreme Cassation decided to hit the snooze button.

 

[Dan O.]

Seriously? All of those knives were at the cottage?
WHAT AN ARSENAL. LMAO. Unbelievable.

And they just picked a cheap cooking knife from Raffaele's cottage at random?

WOW!!!!! I hadn't seen this picture. I knew they had a few knives so it wouldn't have been necessary for Rudy and Amanda to bring a knife to the cottage.

What's more is tha Amanda absolutely knew that there were sufficient knives in thhe kitchen because she didn't even bother opening the set she brought with her from Germany.

 

[RandyN]

Seriously? All of those knives were at the cottage?
WHAT AN ARSENAL. LMAO. Unbelievable.

And they just picked a cheap cooking knife from Raffaele's cottage at random?

WOW!!!!! I hadn't seen this picture. I knew they had a few knives so it wouldn't have been necessary for Rudy and Amanda to bring a knife to the cottage.

Did you know Amanda had a full set of knives stored under her bed?

 

[RandyN]

Didn't bring it up in the context of debating it. You do agree that the DNA is still part of case don't you? Just to be clear, I do believe in starch. Not that the DNA turned into it but that it exists.



They both may be nut balls. Journalists don't do PR as journalists.

OK here is what the ISC wrote about the starch...found on pg 13,14 of the translation of the ISC motivation document.

With respect to the traces on the knife (Exhibit 36), the new court‐appointed experts noted that the cytomorpholical analyses had not revealed the presence of cellular material, other than elements attributable to starch granules; as for the genetic analyses, the attribution of trace A to Knox was correct, while the conclusion with regard to trace B was that the result ascribed to the [genetic] profile of the victim was unreliable. No scientific elements were found which could prove the haematic nature of the trace, the sample had to be considered a Low Copy Number (a trace with a low quantity of DNA) to which the most rigorous criteria recommended by the scientific community had to be applied; therefore,

[according to the aforementioned appeal court‐appointed experts], the DNA profile found on trace B could not be attributed with certainty to the victim Meredith Kercher. Indeed, it could not be ruled out that the result obtained could have been caused by an occurrence of contamination.