Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

I suppose this was a rhetorical question, but I am not even sure it goes to what Mignini said. As I understand it, Mignini is only quoted as saying that Satanic ritual motivations could be a murder motive, not that Satan needed to be considered as the possible murderer in some cases.

If I understand your point here, I agree with a bit. What Mignini said doesn't imply that he believes that Satan is the potential murderer, he's just saying that Satanic rituals can be a motivation in some murders. Still, how often is this the case in Italy? It is a bit strange that he now says he didn't propose something like that as a motive in the Kercher case while he's talking about the possibility of Satanic Rite related murders with a picture of Knox in the background.

I don't believe that anybody is claiming that Mignini used the term, Satanic Rite, verbatim with regards to the Kercher murder. If they were, I think the direct quote would have been provided by now.

However, a lot of people seem to think he did. In particular Kercher and Nadeau did and they seem like pretty good sources for this kind of thing to me. And whether he used the term verbatim or not, he did use the term, "A sexual and, sacrificial rite", which is close enough that if this hadn't become something of an issue in this thread I wouldn't have thought twice about somebody characterizing that as meaning Satanic Rite. He also tried to tie Halloween into an explanation for the murder as well. All together, the evidence suggests to me that Mignini was probably leading the media meme about this being some sort of occult, sexual, violent motivated murder. But what Mignini leaked to the press and when he leaked it isn't knowable with precision. But I doubt that the Satanic Rite meme got going on its own.

DaveFOC - thanks for this. What seems to be hard for some is keeping relevant to the Kercher murder, which is what your post is - relevant to the Kercher murder.

Early on, the PLE and prosecution got badly off track. Whereas we can argue like cats and dogs whether or not Amanda and Raffaele should have been suspected... most certainly by the time Rudy Guede became known (and the forensics started pointing to him and only to him) whatever sins AK and RS had (mainly of youth, as Massei said - meaning not psychopathology, unless you consider the sins of youth to be psychotic!)....

..... by the time Rudy entered the scene, this case was solved. To the exclusion of all others, including Amanda, Raffaele..... and, since it's the subject here......

Satan.

Satan left no fingerprints.... no DNA, unless Amanda managed to remove those, too, with her magic lamp.

I was waiting for Grinder to try to pin this on Satan, or at the very least say that Mignini was trying to pin this on Le Grand Diabolical one, himself, and as much as I would relish ridiculing Mr. Mignini for so doing, alas he does not.

Mignini spoke of a "riti", which even Machiavelli does not deny.... in true form, though, Machiavelli writes 3000 words to try to shoehorn "riti" into a "game" format, so as to fit the lastest version of motive, this one a recycled one by the ISC last March - sex-game gone wrong.... and acc. to Machiavelli it's a sex-"riti" gone wrong, and he tries to bend the meaning of "riti."

But no one, not me, not Machiavelli, not Mignini, not Nadeau, not John Kercher, not John Douglas, not Bruce Fisher, not Steve Moore, not Maresca, not Massei nor Hellmann, nor angels and archangels and all that is good or evil under heaven......

..... has ever accused Satan, Lucifer, Ray Walston of doing this crime himself.

Extra points of you can spot the Ray Walston reference.

Early on the PLE and prosecution solved this crime through behavioural observation only, and openly bragged that they'd solved it before the forensics came in. Ever since they've relied on tabloid frenzies to mask their mistakes.

Now all they have is Andrea Vogt, and an anonymous Wiki-editor, to try to do all this heavy lifting for them.

And Mignini is marginalized, even now within the Italian judiciary in relation to the Kercher murder.... and is now having to defend himself (with Andrea's and Mach's help) from this Satanic rite thing which is in Oct 2013 biting him in the butt.

And he does it by appearing at a conference saying that you can never rule it out completely. This guy desperately needs some PR advice from Gogerty-Marriott.

 

[davefoc]

...

Extra points of you can spot the Ray Walston reference.

...

I did spot it, I assume you threw it in to appeal to the old farts participating in the thread. Probably there's a few of the young folks scratching their heads trying to figure out what My favorite Martian has to do with this subject, but most of them probably didn't even get that far.

 

[xinonix]

Even if there was Kercher's DNA on the blade, and there was Raffyel's DNA on the bra clasp, Mignini would not be able to know what went on during the night of Nov.1. from only this evidence and a firm belief that the break in was staged. He had to have gotten this information from a psychic.
If the guilters were able to prove that all the people who think Amanda is innocent are liars, that would not explain how Mignini knew what happened.
The psychic convinced Mignini it was a sex game or a satanic rite.
If Mignini did not get all this information from a psychic he would have assumed Rudy did it, and dropped the charges against AR+RS.
In order to win this debate you guilters have to prove that the psychic got his job done.

 

[acbytesla]

Do you believe in Satan? Simple yes/no.

What? Is this the Big scene in the Godfather? Do you renounce Satan? BANG!!!

 

[Matthew Best]

Is it safe?

 

[Grinder]

I am interested - a little bit - in this conversation. I don't know if Bill believes in Satan, or how important that is. What the question is, in my opinion, is does Mignini believe in Satan? Gee, now I am capitalizing his name. Maybe that is the proper way to frame this issue. For me, the mere fact that Mignini is at a conference with Satan as a subject is almost humorous. And I would ask you, Grinder, if you don't find that a bit bizarre. I suppose in Italy or Perugia that is a subject worthy of discussion. Even if Mignini is there to deny that it (Satanism) was or should be a factor in evaluating cases. And it appears that Mignini has stated under some circumstances at least that it should be considered. Maybe not this case.

I think all religious cult meetings are bizarre. I think a Catholic nation inside Italy is bizarre. I do find that conference as BW describes it bizarre. I'm not convince that portrayal is accurate

If As Mach puts it, Mignini is saying nothing should be ruled out that is less of an issue for me than if he is promoting looking at Satanism from the git.

I think that BW's own beliefs may be coloring his POV. I think that people that believe inb Satan and practice satanism are nuts.

it seems like Bill is chasing after confirmation of a suspicion re Mignini and Satanism, whereas you want it taken out of the conversation until stronger proof is available.

Bill says Mignini said it was a satanic rite, Mach says no. It is for Bill to prove the point regardless if Mach says he has transcripts of court hearings. I don't really care as I think the point isn't germane to the appeal. The sex game is however.

For myself, I certainly allow for the possibility that it was media created myth that Mignini was initially applying religious overtones re Satanism to the case at hand. But their is reason to be suspicious. Whatever Satanism is, be it a specific set of rituals around Satan, or whether a loose association to Halloween and hobgoblins will qualify. Sheesh. Look at the level of conversation or thought! What is it about this case that makes a person even delve into such thought patterns...?

I think that the conference is more about Italy than Mignini. I can understand why a murder committed on or near Halloween might have occult undertones. So what?

Bill keeps it up but can't give a source. He won't reveal why he is obsessed with Satan or satanic rites or if Mignini considered them at the beginning.

 

[acbytesla]

I think all religious cult meetings are bizarre. I think a Catholic nation inside Italy is bizarre. I do find that conference as BW describes it bizarre. I'm not convince that portrayal is accurate

I have to agree with you there Grinder. There are still two independent nations inside Italy today. San Marino and Vatican City. There use to be more. And if we think about it, there are actually more independent nations inside the US than Italy. Although I might be stretching this a little bit. "Tribal nations.. reservations"

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill keeps it up but can't give a source. He won't reveal why he is obsessed with Satan or satanic rites or if Mignini considered them at the beginning.

I'm not sure if it is helpful to repeat myself. What I want to know is why here in Oct 2013 Mignini and Machiavelli are talking about it? Machiavelli has been kind enough to offer his own opinion - that Spezi makes issue of it, too (that Mignini offered a Satanic rite theory in the Narducci thing and that this coloured Mignini's thinking - psychic or no psychic - in the Kercher murder). That Spezi keeps bringing it up and Mignini has decided to defend himself. That part I did not know, so thank you to Machiavelli for bringing us all up to speed on it.

The issue is why is it still in play in Oct 2013. I've offered my reasons. Machiavelli has offered his. Strangely, he and I are not that far apart, although we differ in the significance. Neither Machiavelli nor I are that much interested in vasting suspicion over Satan as a cause of this crime.... the issue is: why does Mignini feel a need to defend himself 6 years down the road?

I'm still trying to figure out why you (Grinder) are so obsessed with why I might be so obsessed, "with Satan" when I've not said anything about El Diablo, Der Teufel, il Diavolo, or Ray Walston himself.

What is crystal clear is that Mignini considered it in the beginning. Mignini never once tried to correct the record in 2007-'08, not that I'm aware of anyway. Maybe Machiavelli can help on that, too. This would not be an issue at all unless he found himself in full retreat on the subject in Oct 2013.

I mean, no one goes after him any more for saying that there was garage-video of Knox going to the cottage at 9 pm. No one goes after him any more for saying that Raffaele called the carabinieri AFTER the arrival of the postal police. Both of those things were wrong and everyone but hardcore guilters have moved on. Mignini is not writing letters trying to explain those mistakes....

Why are you obsessed with my obsessions?

 

[GreyFox]

For six years now the Mignini PR campaign has spewed Satanic cult references in the press as well as calling Knox a witch, whore, murderer etc. Even presenting her to control Guedes and Sollecito's mind like she was Charlie Manson or something, (remember she did it all from another room Per Mignini CNN interveiw).
They (Mignini's PR campaign...Vogt, Barbie, Pisa etc.) sold lots of papers based on stories of Ak's Diary and how many sex partners she's had including the infamous herpes on her lip not to mention the photo of the bloody bathroom that formed opinions unfavorable to Knox.

I never heard Mignini step up to the podium and declare any of this to be a misrepresentation of Knox and Sollecito ? Why ? Because as long as it favored him in a conviction of these two and helped save the PLE face in this wrongful conviction he was all for it.

Only now does this Rat tird and defenders want to separate himself from the tabloid trash they used to convict these innocent people.

This catholic says ...let him reap what he's sown ! The PR campaign he has endorsed was way better than anything Knox has for sure !!! A little too good

 

[Supernaut]

I agree. Didn't Vogt say something before heading to Sicily a couple of days ago, that she was tired of this case?

It was about 2 weeks ago and she tweeted "Same tiresome arguments by all sides for 6 yrs on #amandaknox case." This was in summary to Amanda's Skype appearance (along with other guests) on Porta a Porta.

The pea-brained Andrea Vogt tries to sound patronising. Laughable.

 

[billyryan]

For six years now the Mignini PR campaign has spewed Satanic cult references in the press as well as calling Knox a witch, whore, murderer etc. Even presenting her to control Guedes and Sollecito's mind like she was Charlie Manson or something, (remember she did it all from another room Per Mignini CNN interveiw).
They (Mignini's PR campaign...Vogt, Barbie, Pisa etc.) sold lots of papers based on stories of Ak's Diary and how many sex partners she's had including the infamous herpes on her lip not to mention the photo of the bloody bathroom that formed opinions unfavorable to Knox.

I never heard Mignini step up to the podium and declare any of this to be a misrepresentation of Knox and Sollecito ? Why ? Because as long as it favored him in a conviction of these two and helped save the PLE face in this wrongful conviction he was all for it.

Only now does this Rat tird and defenders want to separate himself from the tabloid trash they used to convict these innocent people.

This catholic says ...let him reap what he's sown ! The PR campaign he has endorsed was way better than anything Knox has for sure !!! A little too good

Three of the cops involved are suspended now and under investigation for vandalism,Napoleoni Zugarina and Gubiotti in an unrelated case,there was plenty of vandalism in the Meredith Kercher case as well,the smashing of the interrogation tapes the vandalism to four computers,the charging of the three cops is proof that there are prosecutors in Perugia who believe in the rule of law,Mignini fears there is somebody eyeing up the big prize of arresting him the fame the photo opportunities such an arrest would bring any prosecutor,he knows all the crimes he has committed and he knows it is only a matter of time before he is held accountable

 

[acbytesla]

For six years now the Mignini PR campaign has spewed Satanic cult references in the press as well as calling Knox a witch, whore, murderer etc. Even presenting her to control Guedes and Sollecito's mind like she was Charlie Manson or something, (remember she did it all from another room Per Mignini CNN interveiw).
They (Mignini's PR campaign...Vogt, Barbie, Pisa etc.) sold lots of papers based on stories of Ak's Diary and how many sex partners she's had including the infamous herpes on her lip not to mention the photo of the bloody bathroom that formed opinions unfavorable to Knox.

I never heard Mignini step up to the podium and declare any of this to be a misrepresentation of Knox and Sollecito ? Why ? Because as long as it favored him in a conviction of these two and helped save the PLE face in this wrongful conviction he was all for it.

Only now does this Rat tird and defenders want to separate himself from the tabloid trash they used to convict these innocent people.

This catholic says ...let him reap what he's sown ! The PR campaign he has endorsed was way better than anything Knox has for sure !!! A little too good

I really like the references to Charlie Manson. Charlie worked his craziness on a bunch of women over a period of years all under the influence of LSD and other drugs over a period of years. Charlie wasn't there for the Tate or the La Bianca murders. They were carried out by Tex Watson and the girls. Tex Watson was as crazy and many times more violent than Charlie.

 

[Grinder]

I'm not sure if it is helpful to repeat myself. What I want to know is why here in Oct 2013 Mignini and Machiavelli are talking about it? Machiavelli has been kind enough to offer his own opinion - that Spezi makes issue of it, too (that Mignini offered a Satanic rite theory in the Narducci thing and that this coloured Mignini's thinking - psychic or no psychic - in the Kercher murder). That Spezi keeps bringing it up and Mignini has decided to defend himself. That part I did not know, so thank you to Machiavelli for bringing us all up to speed on it.

The issue is why is it still in play in Oct 2013. I've offered my reasons. Machiavelli has offered his. Strangely, he and I are not that far apart, although we differ in the significance. Neither Machiavelli nor I are that much interested in vasting suspicion over Satan as a cause of this crime.... the issue is: why does Mignini feel a need to defend himself 6 years down the road?

I'm still trying to figure out why you (Grinder) are so obsessed with why I might be so obsessed, "with Satan" when I've not said anything about El Diablo, Der Teufel, il Diavolo, or Ray Walston himself.

Well for one thing this has on longer than a discussion of whether DNA was actually starch which is actually currently part of the evidence in the case.

Why you refuse to either answer the question as whether or not you believe in Satan or if you can actually provide a source will not be dropped until you stop this discussion.

It has been addressed that Spezi wrote a piece for a paper in florence and Mignini wrote a counter article. Spezi is fighting some charge so is using PR for his side. Asked and answered.

What is crystal clear is that Mignini considered it in the beginning. Mignini never once tried to correct the record in 2007-'08, not that I'm aware of anyway. Maybe Machiavelli can help on that, too. This would not be an issue at all unless he found himself in full retreat on the subject in Oct 2013.

Gee it keeps coming back to the same question: Do you have proof that Mignini ever said anything about Satanic rites? No you do not. Why would he defend himself from an obscure Barbie contention or Kercher in a british tab? Do you think if an Italian paper had said he said it maybe that would be a different story. Also, he is no longer part of the prosecution.

He wrote an article or letter, is that full retreat?

I mean, no one goes after him any more for saying that there was garage-video of Knox going to the cottage at 9 pm. No one goes after him any more for saying that Raffaele called the carabinieri AFTER the arrival of the postal police. Both of those things were wrong and everyone but hardcore guilters have moved on. Mignini is not writing letters trying to explain those mistakes....

Why are you obsessed with my obsessions?

Because you keep this circus going. Much of that was the police not Mignini. Why are you so obsessed with him? Do you think he is Satan?

 

[Grinder]

For six years now the Mignini PR campaign has spewed Satanic cult references in the press as well as calling Knox a witch, whore, murderer etc. Even presenting her to control Guedes and Sollecito's mind like she was Charlie Manson or something, (remember she did it all from another room Per Mignini CNN interveiw).
They (Mignini's PR campaign...Vogt, Barbie, Pisa etc.) sold lots of papers based on stories of Ak's Diary and how many sex partners she's had including the infamous herpes on her lip not to mention the photo of the bloody bathroom that formed opinions unfavorable to Knox.

The vast majority of satanic talk for the last 5 years has come from comments and not any official source, if it ever did. I think in the CNN interview it was more of it was possible she didn't enter the room during the murder. He wasn't saying it was mind-control but that she instigated and was an accomplice.

I never heard Mignini step up to the podium and declare any of this to be a misrepresentation of Knox and Sollecito ? Why ? Because as long as it favored him in a conviction of these two and helped save the PLE face in this wrongful conviction he was all for it.

I never saw evidence of that reported anywhere.

The early media coverage was despicable. I always thought it came from the police and other insiders like translators.

 

[Bill Williams]

Grinder - did you really ask that last question?

Whatever.

 

[Mary_H]

I think that BW's own beliefs may be coloring his POV.

It's bad manners to ask other people their religious beliefs. It's a very personal subject. Also, anyone's beliefs could be coloring their point of view, regardless of what they believe.

 

[Mary_H]

Why you refuse to either answer the question as whether or not you believe in Satan or if you can actually provide a source will not be dropped until you stop this discussion.

He can't stop the discussion as long as someone keeps asking him questions.

 

[acbytesla]

Well for one thing this has on longer than a discussion of whether DNA was actually starch which is actually currently part of the evidence in the case.

Why you refuse to either answer the question as whether or not you believe in Satan or if you can actually provide a source will not be dropped until you stop this discussion.

It has been addressed that Spezi wrote a piece for a paper in florence and Mignini wrote a counter article. Spezi is fighting some charge so is using PR for his side. Asked and answered.



Gee it keeps coming back to the same question: Do you have proof that Mignini ever said anything about Satanic rites? No you do not. Why would he defend himself from an obscure Barbie contention or Kercher in a british tab? Do you think if an Italian paper had said he said it maybe that would be a different story. Also, he is no longer part of the prosecution.

He wrote an article or letter, is that full retreat?



Because you keep this circus going. Much of that was the police not Mignini. Why are you so obsessed with him? Do you think he is Satan?

You know Grinder, you tell me to drop the starch thing and I do, but then you keep bringing it up, again and again and again. And here you are talking about Bill bringing up the satanism thing. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black??

Spezi is a journalist. PR is what he does. He is fighting the nut ball Mignini and Mignini has been trying to shut him up for about a decade.

 

[Bill Williams]

It's bad manners to ask other people their religious beliefs. It's a very personal subject. Also, anyone's beliefs could be coloring their point of view, regardless of what they believe.

Personally, I would distrust anyone who claimed that their core beliefs, religious or otherwise, did NOT colour their point of view. (Which raises an interesting question - is there anyone who is so neutral, balanced and objective that they can claim not to have core beliefs?)

This convo with Grinder is one of the more bizarre things.... and completely peripheral to what the thread is about. His mileage varies. Obviously.

 

[Bill Williams]

He can't stop the discussion as long as someone keeps asking him questions.

My questions have been answered, by (of all people) Machiavelli. Mignini is raising this whole thing in 2013 in response to Spezi. That's why the Satanic Rite thing is still a live subject.....