Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[WillyWonka]

Ophelia Benson's blog, see comments for the continuing saga

Comments from #47 are interesting

 

[Empress]

Speaking of chemgeek, she started a thread that lists red flags as to what makes someone a creepy, anti-plusser sort of person.

What are these red flags, you ask? Sure some of them are obvious and what you'd expect, such as flying a Confederate flag, or talking about "toxins" or "Big Pharma". But they have some really interesting ones, including, mispronouncing "diabetes" or saying "diabetes" without mentioning which type. Also, referring to someone as Muslim means you're anti-Arab, and listing yourself as "atheist" on Twitter is correlated with being a terrible person. (I don't do twitter, but I'm listed as atheist on FB. I assume that works, too.) I already knew that I wasn't a proper plusser type, but I didn't know that not mentioning that my mother has Type II diabetes, instead of just saying she has diabetes marked me as an Anti-plusser. That's just...odd.

 

[Skiltch]

Other stupid flags from that thread:

Liking Walt and disliking Skylar in Breaking Bad means you're a misogynist and believe there's more false rape accusations than real rape. Because... I dunno. Only a misogynist would support Walt over Skylar.

The word "Democrat" as an adjective, e.g. "Democrat senator." Gasp, I guess all of C-SPAN must be right-wing evildoers!

"Atheist." Sigh. A+ really dropped the whole 'A' part of that quickly, didn't they? Between this and ceepolk's comment about not caring about atheist goals at all, it's pretty clear.

"Monsanto". Caring about GMOs = evil!

Owning a copy of Atlas Shrugged. Hey, I own a copy of AS and I disagree with Rand on just about everything. Owning/reading a book doesn't mean agreeing with anything in it.

Reality Enthusiast:

prominent sports team logos, quotes or hashtags romanticizing alcohol consumption, My Little Pony images or references, main website link is a YouTube channel rather than a blog.

If you like sports teams, MLP, or Youtube, Reality Enthusiast thinks you're a terrible person!

...

Reading that thread on Butterflies and Wheels is amazing. Ophelia's saying some pretty harsh things about the A+ forum now, thanks to their mob. And of course the person from Benson's blog who goes to the A+ forum gets banned, and Apostolek completely lies when describing what Benson said to her on her blog. It's surprising to see the A+ forum humiliate itself in front of one of its biggest advocates.

 

[Skiltch]

On the other hand, the "Our Next Move" thread is actually kind of depressing.

So the Skepticon thing? That was awesome. Not just the fact that we raised over $600 AFTER fees were applied, but we got together and accomplished something which I've wanted to happen for so long (see that rather failed A+ Big Project thing from who knows how long ago) so YAY.

See also the funding goal, which was more than $600, and therefore the money they raised wasn't sufficient to cover the estimated costs of sending anyone to skepticon. (They did use the money when someone posted saying they already had a ticket and just needed hotel fair). But basically, they weren't able to meet a $700 target.

So is there anything anyone's been itching to do A+ project-wise? I know we had talk of wanting to do a con earlier, and then FTB-con came up and satisfied that urge, but we could revisit that idea. Eons ago we did talk about doing a non-profit, but dropped the idea because lolfunds, but we've shown we can fund things to some extent (Note that I don't know just how much it costs to start a non-profit, though, but I'm sure we could manage). Aaaand the holidays are coming up, though perhaps too quickly to do anything for them, unless we can figure out something quickly.

I think it might take more than $640 to start a non-profit, so I don't see this as viable.

Other things I want to mention: We have a massively awesome amount of etsyers and crafters here, and that's an awesome asset when it comes to fundraising. And after designing the ilk shirt I have a) realized doing that is both fun and easy and a good source of money and b) already gotten a shop open for A+ to use.

Those were offered for the fundraiser, and people didn't want them.

Things less related to monies: I've noticed our activity has dropped lately, and while I'm partly taking that as a "no news is good news" sign (because usually we have the most forum activity when ****ery is about), I'm also taking it that we're kind of stagnating as far as things to talk about, as well as people to talk to. Perhaps we could start reaching out into meatspace some more? And brainstorm how to do so?

But to do that you have to interact with people. And interact on their terms, where you can't just ban them if they disagree with you and where you're expected to keep a polite tone. So I don't think this is going to be successful either. At best, people will do this and drew some others in... who will go to the forum, see what a nightmare it is, and bail.

I don't think it's a coincidence that a bunch of people who pride themselves on not caring about tone and being as rude and cruel as they feel like when they see something they can claim is offensive aren't terribly effective at getting things done for their causes. But of course, it's not about getting things done. It's not about doing anything about the oppressions that they say are ravaging themselves and the world. It's about making themselves feel good by continually proving to each other how much better they are than everyone else. No, they aren't actually doing anything to fight sexism or racism or poverty besides posting hateful comments on blogs. But they're better than actual activists anyway, because this group compromised to get something done, or that one referenced "intelligence," which is ablist, or something like that.

Very unfortunate.

 

[Stout]

Oh, that didn't end well. Ophelia benson eventually removed the offending picture from her blog and locked her comments section but, as far as I can tell, the anti Atheism Plus population has grown by one. Richard Carrier appears to have simply thrown up his hands and left the building.

Arachaya S at least played ball and amended the description in her blog to correctly identify the gender of these virginity testers, Ophelia Benson, OTOH, didn't.

At least if we go with the A+ claim that this virginity testing is rape, we'll have a concrete example of rape culture to point to.

Also, referring to someone as Muslim means you're anti-Arab,

I think what she was on about here was the spelling. The chemgeek is obviously too young to remember when this was the common spelling. likewise with her objection to the word negro,

Of course it's highly problematic to equate Muslims with Arabs as countries like Indonesia are clearly not Arab. Speaking of, there's an Indonesian state, Sumatra, that wants to make virginity testing mandatory.

Was anyone else surprised to see the words atheist and skeptic show up on the A+ list of red flags ? I didn't think so.

 

[Empress]

I think what she was on about here was the spelling. The chemgeek is obviously too young to remember when this was the common spelling. likewise with her objection to the word negro,

Of course it's highly problematic to equate Muslims with Arabs as countries like Indonesia are clearly not Arab. Speaking of, there's an Indonesian state, Sumatra, that wants to make virginity testing mandatory.

Was anyone else surprised to see the words atheist and skeptic show up on the A+ list of red flags ? I didn't think so.

Rereading the thread, I see what you mean. It didn't occur to me that it was the spelling, since, as you say, that used to be common, and pretty much anything written in the 19th century mentioning Muslims will have that spelling. I unreservedly withdraw my inaccurate criticism on that point.

However, the thread still stands as a testament to the plusser looniness. Like you, seeing "atheist" and "skeptic" listed as red-flag words was just so sadly expected. Atheism Plus, indeed.

 

[Amadanb]

I think what she was on about here was the spelling. The chemgeek is obviously too young to remember when this was the common spelling. likewise with her objection to the word negro

In fairness, "Moslem" used to be the accepted spelling and "negro" used to be an accepted term, but both are now considered, at best, archaic, and someone who keeps referring to black people as "negroes" would indeed make me arch an eyebrow.

(Yes, yes, I know, NAACP and UNCF. They're historical organizations and they've kept their historical names.)

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Comments from #47 are interesting

When you wallow with the pigs, expect to get dirty.

 

[Stout]

I don't think the spelling is that old. I remember seeing it frequently, and TBH, I didn't even notice the change to Muslim. That thread sure shows who has what personal bugaboos.

Seen Thunderfoot's latest video ?

I'll drop this one here...just for fun. Herr Myers Big Speech

 

[Amadanb]

I don't think the spelling is that old. I remember seeing it frequently, and TBH, I didn't even notice the change to Muslim. That thread sure shows who has what personal bugaboos.

Well, "Muslim" is actually the more accurate transliteration.

"Moslem" isn't as bad as "Mohammedan," but it does show a certain unwillingness to move into the 21st century.

Seen Thunderfoot's latest video ?

Wow, he's... dramatic. I can't see him as much less strident and toxic than the people he's ranting about.

 

[Stout]

Context is important. Somebody using Moslem or Negro might just be elderly and, unsure of the new modern terminology, going with what they know. Is this valid grounds for condemning them ?

Thunderfoot....dramatic ? I'll give you that and this is a far better effort than that last piece of junk he published. Strident and toxic, I gather that's the idea but is he wrong though ? Is he just making that stuff up ?

ETA

Hey wait..strident and toxic? On A+ that would be tone policing.

 

[Amadanb]

Context is important. Somebody using Moslem or Negro might just be elderly and, unsure of the new modern terminology, going with what they know. Is this valid grounds for condemning them ?

If they're elderly and don't know any better, no. If they are told that most "Moslems" and "Negroes" nowadays resent being referred to that way, and aggressively defend their right to continue using the terms, then yes.

Thunderfoot....dramatic ? I'll give you that and this is a far better effort than that last piece of junk he published. Strident and toxic, I gather that's the idea but is he wrong though ? Is he just making that stuff up ?

I don't think either he or Rebecca Watson, PZ Meyers, et al, are making things up, I think they are both describing their own versions of reality. I don't follow the details of atheist blog wars as obsessively as he and his fans/enemies do, but it does seem to me that if you're an atheist whose "enemies list" is exactly the same as Vox Day's, minus atheists, you should maybe take a long look in the mirror. And from what I've seen, Thunderfoot burns as much straw as some of the A+ers do.

 

[Humes fork]

PZ Myers asks:

So what has the West done for the rest of the world lately? Well, there’s feathered arrows. And…facebook? Maybe we should stop right there.

Well, there is modern science, the Internet, penicillin, the eradication of smallpox, democracy, equal rights for women, minorities and gays. Might count for something, perhaps?

What a bloody idiot this guy it. Show me a culture that has done more for the world. I'm eagerly awaiting.

How did he get semi-famous anyways? He is just a bum with a blog.

 

[Stout]

If they're elderly and don't know any better, no. If they are told that most "Moslems" and "Negroes" nowadays resent being referred to that way, and aggressively defend their right to continue using the terms, then yes.
.

Fair enough.

I don't think either he or Rebecca Watson, PZ Meyers, et al, are making things up, I think they are both describing their own versions of reality. I don't follow the details of atheist blog wars as obsessively as he and his fans/enemies do, but it does seem to me that if you're an atheist whose "enemies list" is exactly the same as Vox Day's, minus atheists, you should maybe take a long look in the mirror. And from what I've seen, Thunderfoot burns as much straw as some of the A+ers do.

So you wont take Thunderfoot to task for lying or exaggerating then.

Yea, those blog wars are pretty involved, one has to choose where to put one's time. I'll agree that those involved are describing their version of reality however the problem(s) come when you try to force others into adopting that version.

The very first post by an Aplusser over at Ophelia Benson's blog ( WRT virginity testing ) was an accusation of hosting child porn with a demand to remove it. Let's think about this for a minute. The image was clearly presented in an anthropological manner and dealing with a cultural issue ( at heart, there was also the whole violating Facebook's ToS thing that spawned it ) so to go from there, anthropology, to child porn betrays a pretty warped vision of reality.

Nobody on A+ even batted an eye that one of their members was accusing someone of a horrific crime. Nobody mentioned that the parents of the girls in the photo are usually present during these examinations and most likely gave the photographer permission. A+ saw what they wanted to see and ran with it without question. They then took that vision and went over to Ophelia's blog and forced her to amend her post to match their sensitivities based on what they thought they were viewing.

They were wrong and this is where having a skewed vision, or version of reality can lead to some pretty serious consequences, like how did Ophelia Benson fare after being accused of being a child pornographer. Anybody care ?

 

[Navigator]

Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we support women’s rights,
Atheists plus we protest racism,
Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.

We don't believe in gods plus we care about social justice
We don't believe in gods plus we support women’s rights,
We don't believe in gods plus we protest racism,
We don't believe in gods plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.

Or:


We lack belief in gods plus we care about social justice,
We lack belief in gods plus we support women’s rights,
We lack belief in gods plus we protest racism,
We lack belief in gods plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
We lack belief in gods plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.


Wouldn't 'social justice' cover everyone's rights, regardless of gender or race or sexual preference?

We lack belief in gods or don't believe in gods plus we care about social justice,
We lack belief in gods plus we support women’s rights,
We lack belief in gods plus we protest racism,
We lack belief in gods plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
We lack belief in gods or don't believe in gods plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.

Would optimum use of critical thinking and open minded skepticism = lack belief in gods and care about social justice across the spectrum of all things humane?

 

[Stout]

PZ Myers asks:



Well, there is modern science, the Internet, penicillin, the eradication of smallpox, democracy, equal rights for women, minorities and gays. Might count for something, perhaps?

What a bloody idiot this guy it. Show me a culture that has done more for the world. I'm eagerly awaiting.

How did he get semi-famous anyways? He is just a bum with a blog.

Well that was interesting, i just spent half an hour reading about the insect tribe in PNG. I don't think PZ would be too enthusiastic about their gender roles though.

Interesting link, makes the Salon article look like crap

 

[Skiltch]

With bonus comments from Caine flipping out at people who say that building your own arrows (the kind you shoot from a bow at an archery range), including attaching feathers, means you're a 'fanatic.' (Because building your own arrows is a perfectly commonplace activity and in no way denotes someone unusually intrigued by or obsessed with fletchery and/or archery.) Sometimes I think you have to really try to be that offended by so many little things.

 

[Amadanb]

So you wont take Thunderfoot to task for lying or exaggerating then.

I do think he's exaggerating. Hence "attacking straw men." I don't know if he's lying about particulars.

 

[Stout]

I do think he's exaggerating. Hence "attacking straw men." I don't know if he's lying about particulars.

Maybe it's his condescending tone that's putting you off as I can find no instances of exaggeration. It's a difficult thing to keep a watcher's attention for 17 minutes and I'll excuse his use of drama to get his point across.

FtB is complaining about censorship and engaging in censorship and of the several examples in that video that I managed to track down and verify, IMO Thunderf00t has a case.

Speaking of censorship, A+ had three bannings yesterday. Ceepolk would be proud.

 

[Skiltch]

I think his claims about FTB's demise are a bit overstated. Maybe it's just because I'm not as familiar with how you go about calculating pageviews and things like that, but as I understood it his claim was just 'They have 200k visitors during one day last June, and they had 30k visitors during one day now, so clearly they're tanking. Also, their google hangout only got 20k views, which is less than [Thunderfoot's Youtube channel]'. It didn't seem convincing to me.

A+, yes, that's tanking; that can be seen from the lack of posts and the shrinking of the membership down to a tiny handful that bans any new blood. But FTB? They look to still be going strong.