Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

But the fact that the US media pushed a campaign which completely misrepresented the Kercher case, omitted and falsified the evidence, put up a Knox-show in place of reporting about the case, and pushed a defamatory campaign spreading falsehoods against Italian justice institutions, to me it is just a fact.

Do you remember the journalist outraged with the US secretary of state speaker because the Italian juror wore the Italian flag?
Or you remember the CNN journalist outside the Perugia court explaining the crowd in the square was angry with the police?
Or the fact that the US networks paid the Knox family stays in Perugia?

Are these supposed to be the examples of the simpleton, xenophobic, massive American smear and defamation campaign against Italy?

Yawn.

 

[Grinder]

Considering that you were taking a shot out me, I thought it best to ignore the metaphorical meaning of your statement and focus on the "precise literal meaning" to avoid rising to the the bait .

Is it really significant to say that C&V said that Meredith's DNA was not found on the knife but starch was compared to to what Candace said?

I may have this wrong (Cody get the hammer out if you wish) but as I recall C&V never said that Meredith's DNA wasn't found on the knife but rather that the methodology of the ICSI was so lacking that contamination could be ruled out. This is totally different from saying the DNA turned out to be starch.

I challenge you to produce a quote from C&V that says precisely Meredith's DNA found by Stefanoni was in fact starch.

I respectfully think there is a huge difference between that and saying they found mixed blood Whereas Candace doesn't change the fact that C&V's report is totally exculpatory, Barbie however changes something that is neutral into something that is incriminating.

I cannot stop you from seeing things in your way. You will do what you will do.

And I can't make you actually produce sources and facts to back your positing. C&V is not "totally exculpatory" but rather puts the reasonable doubt well beyond the not guilty level. I totally think that the DNA should never have been allowed in because of the protocol not followed and methodology of testing.

Why don't you say that the DNA turned out to be turnip juice?

 

[Grinder]

True, silly you. Amanda might actually know, but didn't get into the details in such a short interview. With all respect Grinder, you are assuming everything. And you know what happens when you assume?

The Devil is in the details..or God..your choice.

One thing that I will agree with the PGP is the bizarreness of ignoring what Amanda and Raf say themselves.

She said they all had solid alibis, period. She could have said the police claimed they all had solid alibis in the same time.

I think and neutral observer would say that you will not accept even the words spoken by Amanda but prefer to foist theories with no backing. If Filomena and her boyfriend were alone at home from say 9 o'clock on, please produce some vaguely reliable source.

I have never seen the details of F's evening and night and would welcome the info and would issue an apology immediately if they were alone from 9 on or 8:30 as it would have taken them some time to get there by TOD.

 

[Diocletus]

I have a question. If Kercher was dead when Rudy violated her, would that actually be a rape?

 

[acbytesla]

I may have this wrong (Cody get the hammer out if you wish) but as I recall C&V never said that Meredith's DNA wasn't found on the knife but rather that the methodology of the ICSI was so lacking that contamination could be ruled out. This is totally different from saying the DNA turned out to be starch.

I challenge you to produce a quote from C&V that says precisely Meredith's DNA found by Stefanoni was in fact starch.

And I can't make you actually produce sources and facts to back your positing. C&V is not "totally exculpatory" but rather puts the reasonable doubt well beyond the not guilty level. I totally think that the DNA should never have been allowed in because of the protocol not followed and methodology of testing.

Why don't you say that the DNA turned out to be turnip juice?

Really, they weren't totally exculpatory??

C&V test conclusions
- The tests that we conducted to determine the presence of blood on item 36 (knife) and item 165B (bra clasps) yielded a negative result.

- The cytomorphological tests on the items did not reveal the presence of cellular material. Some samples of item 36 (knife), in particular sample “H”, present granules with a circular/hexagonal characteristic morphology with a cental radial structure. A more detailed microscopic study, together with the consultation of data in the literature, allowed us to ascertain that the structures in question are attributable to granules of starch, thus matter of a vegetable nature.
- The quantification of the extracts obtained from the samples obtained from item 36 (knife) and item 165B (bra clasps), conducted via Real Time PCR, did not reveal the presence of DNA.

ITEM 36 (KNIFE)

Relative to the genetic analysis performed on trace A (handle of the knife), we agree with the conclusion reached by the Technical Consultant regarding the attribution of the genetic profile obtained from these samples to Amanda Marie Knox.

Relative to trace B (blade of the knife) we find that the technical analyses performed are not reliable for the following reasons:

1. There does not exist evidence which scientifically confirms that trace B (blade of knife) is the product of blood.

2. The electrophoretic profiles exhibited reveal that the sample indicated by the letter B (blade of knife) was a Low Copy Number (LCN) sample, and, as such, all of the precautions indicated by the international scientific community should have been applied.

3. Taking into account that none of the recommendations of the international scientific community relative to the treatment of Low Copy Number (LCN) samples were followed, we do not accept the conclusions regarding the certain attribution of the profile found on trace B (blade of knife) to the victim Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher, since the genetic profile, as obtained, appears unreliable insofar as it is not supported by scientifically validated analysis;

4. International protocols of inspection, collection, and sampling were not followed;

5. It cannot be ruled out that the result obtained from sample B (blade of knife) derives from contamination in some phase of the collection and/or handling and/or analyses performed.

ITEM 165B (BRA CLASPS)

Relative to Item 165B (bra clasps), we find that the technical analysis is not reliable for the following reasons:

1. There does not exist evidence which scientifically confirms the presence of supposed flaking cells on the item;

2. There was an erroneous interpretation of the electrophoretic profile of the autosomic STRs;

3. There was an erroneous interpretation of the electrophoretic profile relative to the Y chromosome;

4. The international protocols for inspection, collection, and sampling of the item were not followed;

5. It cannot be ruled out that the results obtained derive from environmental contamination and/or contamination in some phase of the collection and/or handling of the item.

Enough said

 

[acbytesla]

One thing that I will agree with the PGP is the bizarreness of ignoring what Amanda and Raf say themselves.

She said they all had solid alibis, period. She could have said the police claimed they all had solid alibis in the same time.

I think and neutral observer would say that you will not accept even the words spoken by Amanda but prefer to foist theories with no backing. If Filomena and her boyfriend were alone at home from say 9 o'clock on, please produce some vaguely reliable source.

I have never seen the details of F's evening and night and would welcome the info and would issue an apology immediately if they were alone from 9 on or 8:30 as it would have taken them some time to get there by TOD.

No, I believe Amanda and Raffaele. It's just that I know that some things are taken out of context or are incomplete. I believe Amanda when she said "she was there". But where "there" is different than where Vogt says "there" is.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I have a question. If Kercher was dead when Rudy violated her, would that actually be a rape?

One might argue that if the person was dead, they were unable to consent. However, I believe it is considered deviant necrophilic rape and is a form of rape perhaps as bad if not worse as standard rape. There was a case here in the US where an 11 year old child was found dead, with semen on her. When the semen was traced to someone, he claimed he only had sex with the child when he happened upon her dead body in the woods, killed by someone else. His own defense lawyers said this was so vile that he felt the jury would convict just to get him off the streets.

 

[charlatan]

Americans are in average xenophobic, as well as presumptuons and arrogant, against everyone.
Americans are simply racist and prejudicial in average, full stop, and they are not fully conscious of being so. They also massively look like extreme simpletons in their understanding of cultures, and of political, antropological and social phenomenons.

Thanks for the concise summary of your motivations in this discussion. You couldn't have made a better argument on behalf of those who believe the Italians are out to burn the American witch. You make football hooligans sound reasonable in comparison.

 

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli
Americans are in average xenophobic, as well as presumptuons and arrogant, against everyone.
Americans are simply racist and prejudicial in average, full stop, and they are not fully conscious of being so. They also massively look like extreme simpletons in their understanding of cultures, and of political, antropological and social phenomenons.

Thanks for the concise summary of your motivations in this discussion. You couldn't have made a better argument on behalf of those who believe the Italians are out to burn the American witch. You make football hooligans sound reasonable in comparison.

You have to love Mach when he says things like this. As an American, I'm surprised by this kind of remark. As an a Yankee Doodle Dandy. I love my country, that said, it is not perfect and some people are everything that Machiavelli describes. But for him to say that on average we are these things is simply means that Machiavelli is all these things.

Americans on average are not on average racist and prejudicial. If that were the case, how is it that the United States elected an African American as the President? Name a country in Europe that has elected a black man to their highest office. America as a country does it best to be none of things that Machiavelli describes us to be.

There are people that bring down the curve however.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Americans are in average xenophobic, as well as presumptuons and arrogant, against everyone.
Americans are simply racist and prejudicial in average, full stop, and they are not fully conscious of being so. They also massively look like extreme simpletons in their understanding of cultures, and of political, antropological and social phenomenons.

Go on, do Australians next.

Why do the Australians who think Knox is innocent do so? I'm guessing brain damage caused by riding kangaroos to work, combined with sympathy for a fellow convict.

 

[billyryan]

One thing that I will agree with the PGP is the bizarreness of ignoring what Amanda and Raf say themselves.

She said they all had solid alibis, period. She could have said the police claimed they all had solid alibis in the same time.

I think and neutral observer would say that you will not accept even the words spoken by Amanda but prefer to foist theories with no backing. If Filomena and her boyfriend were alone at home from say 9 o'clock on, please produce some vaguely reliable source.

I have never seen the details of F's evening and night and would welcome the info and would issue an apology immediately if they were alone from 9 on or 8:30 as it would have taken them some time to get there by TOD.

Amanda is certain in her own mind that Rudy Guede murdered Meredith,she is not willing in anyway to make statements that might be construed as pointing the finger of accusation at any of her flatmates or Meredith's English friends,if only they had such honour,its not Amanda's job to check out Philomena's alibi and it's natural for her to believe she has one.

By the way Grinder if Sophie had become the object of Mignini's sadistic sexual obsession,what alibi has she got,all agree she was with Meredith a very short time before she was murdered,if you believe her she parted with Meredith on lonely city streets,yet she never made a phone call when she got home to check that Meredith did the same,which would be a natural thing to do,I do not know if she lived alone or has witnesses of her arrival home

Philomena's solid alibi statement just shows the nature of Amanda,despite Philomena doing her no favours in her testimony despite her knowledge of Perugia and Italy,Philomena never advised Amanda that she needed to talk to a lawyer for advice in the days after the murder,Philomena never visited her flatmate in Prison or as far as I know never wrote to her,yet despite the mindless cruelty she endured she is very careful not to say anything that could lead to problems for anyone else

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Which the defence did NOT request for two years.
And which were never denied by the prosecution.
They were denied by a judge!

This is progress. You're acknowledging what I have always known to be the case, i.e., the defense asked for this material repeatedly, and never got it.

 

[Bill Williams]

Which the defence did NOT request for two years.
And which were never denied by the prosecution.
They were denied by a judge!

This is progress. You're acknowledging what I have always known to be the case, i.e., the defense asked for this material repeatedly, and never got it.

Machiavelli is now making awkward mistakes.

Napoleoni and her pal are making awkward mistakes around Napoleoni's custody battle.

Mignini is making awkward mistakes.

The Florence court - so far at least- has done nothing to undo Hellmann and Zanetti's decision to acquit.

Machiavelli <snaps> and calls Knox, a "little psychopathic murderer" despite even Judge Massei saying something quite opposite.

Machiavelli tries to fudge on the "sex game gone wrong", because it does not fit into Massei's narrative of the crime. Go read Massei, pages 392-394. It is Rudy's lust and his lust alone which is the cause - at least according to Massei's narrative, now at odds with Mignini and Machiavelli. (It always was.)

Machiavelli even turns on Barbie Nadeau, calling her an "approximate reporter" which is quite the euphemism, isn't it.... A.K.A. a liar, for saying that Mignini once wished to take the Satanic Rite theory to court.

So far Machiavelli has not turned on the Kerchers, only calling John Kercher "mistaken" for saying the same thing as Nadeau. They still need the Kerchers to believe the lie.

You see, the issue is not whether any of these things are necessarily factually true... listen to the narrative - as it is advanced and as it falls apart.

You wanna know the power of narrative? When it really falls apart, they turn on each other. Machiavelli, Nadeau, the awkward mistakes...

 

[RandyN]

Diocletus. I think we are being unfair if we paint Italy with a broad brush. For example. I've come to totally admire Raffaele. He is a hero in my book. He has truly demonstrated tremendous courage in how he has handled himself throughout this affair. There are Italians that are on Amanda's and Raffaele's side. Sadly, Italy judicial system is screwed up and there are some morons who have acted badly. We should not treat them as if they are all the same.

In a case so clearly flawed and with several chances for the Italian judiciary to review these flaws and to yet somehow continue this charade past 6 years now is indicative of a cultural defect.

If there are fine upstanding Italians who happen to be aware of this atrocity, then where are they? Have you seen the peasants line up on the side walk to spit...yes spit, on the aunt of Sara Scazzi at her arrest and perp walk? No trial...only baseless stupid speculation in spite of a clear and interestingly recorded confession by the murderer and rapist. The only thing missing in the video are the pitch forks and lanterns.

Its not about US and Italy. In fact when do we ever hear any news of Italy? Rarely if at all. They are a tiny country who cant pay their bills and this is the most newsworthy item to report about them. (maybe once a year) Oh and occasionally one of them crashes a cruise ship into the rocks while showing off in front of his girlfriend. (and then trips and falls into a lifeboat with this same girl who also must have tripped...what are the odds)

Judging by the logic and obvious corrupt behavior displayed for the world to see in adjudicating this case, it is clear several someones are not playing with anything near a full deck...not xenophobic... we fear nothing coming out of Italy...we just think you are incredibly stupid, judging by the record on public display during this case.

 

[RandyN]

Of course. One of your non-xenophobic and non-prejudicial comments.
Frank Sfarzo must be an exception then, since he lived with her mother until the age of 50, and he was your main source. What about your titty, and your parroting again the lie - while you know it (or you knox it) to be false - that the prosecution allegedly hid the EDFs...

Main source for what? I recall Frank operating a minor blog and he posted his opinions in English of what he saw in court that day. And since he attended most court sessions it was often timely...still it was a blog which is different from an objective news agency. In fact this was not a huge international story at all. The majors rarely bothered to send any reporters. They foolishly relied on hacks and liars like Barbie and Vogt. Dont worry she is about to go down in shame...as she should.

 

[acbytesla]

Machiavelli is now making awkward mistakes.

Napoleoni and her pal are making awkward mistakes around Napoleoni's custody battle.

Mignini is making awkward mistakes.

The Florence court - so far at least- has done nothing to undo Hellmann and Zanetti's decision to acquit.

Machiavelli <snaps> and calls Knox, a "little psychopathic murderer" despite even Judge Massei saying something quite opposite.

Machiavelli tries to fudge on the "sex game gone wrong", because it does not fit into Massei's narrative of the crime. Go read Massei, pages 392-394. It is Rudy's lust and his lust alone which is the cause - at least according to Massei's narrative, now at odds with Mignini and Machiavelli. (It always was.)

Machiavelli even turns on Barbie Nadeau, calling her an "approximate reporter" which is quite the euphemism, isn't it.... A.K.A. a liar, for saying that Mignini once wished to take the Satanic Rite theory to court.

So far Machiavelli has not turned on the Kerchers, only calling John Kercher "mistaken" for saying the same thing as Nadeau. They still need the Kerchers to believe the lie.

You see, the issue is not whether any of these things are necessarily factually true... listen to the narrative - as it is advanced and as it falls apart.

You wanna know the power of narrative? When it really falls apart, they turn on each other. Machiavelli, Nadeau, the awkward mistakes...

Anyone who is arguing guilt is bound to make awkward mistakes Bill. I've spent a lifetime in sales. I've sold good products and I've sold crap. Selling crap is always awkward. Always. It's a million times easier selling quality over crap. ALWAYS!!

The same has to be true for a lawyer. It's a hell of lot harder arguing a case that is crap. And this case is crap.

I'm sure they thought it was a slam dunk when they thought that Raffaele's shoe prints were all over the murder room. That surely made it "case closed" in their mind.

But the moment it was clear that those shoe prints didn't belong to Raffaele and really belonged to Rudy, their case became crap. It stunk to high heaven.

But they were like the gambler that had pushed "all in" on a pair of threes. They had no choice but to wait until the cards were revealed to show that their opponent had ACES!!!

 

[acbytesla]

In a case so clearly flawed and with several chances for the Italian judiciary to review these flaws and to yet somehow continue this charade past 6 years now is indicative of a cultural defect.

If there are fine upstanding Italians who happen to be aware of this atrocity, then where are they? Have you seen the peasants line up on the side walk to spit...yes spit, on the aunt of Sara Scazzi at her arrest and perp walk? No trial...only baseless stupid speculation in spite of a clear and interestingly recorded confession by the murderer and rapist. The only thing missing in the video are the pitch forks and lanterns.

Its not about US and Italy. In fact when do we ever hear any news of Italy? Rarely if at all. They are a tiny country who cant pay their bills and this is the most newsworthy item to report about them. (maybe once a year) Oh and occasionally one of them crashes a cruise ship into the rocks while showing off in front of his girlfriend. (and then trips and falls into a lifeboat with this same girl who also must have tripped...what are the odds)

Judging by the logic and obvious corrupt behavior displayed for the world to see in adjudicating this case, it is clear several someones are not playing with anything near a full deck...not xenophobic... we fear nothing coming out of Italy...we just think you are incredibly stupid, judging by the record on public display during this case.

There is judge Hellman, and Zanetti and his jury. There is Judge Mori. There have been articles defending Amanda in Oggi and Il Tiempo. There have been politicians who have spoken up for Amanda and Raffaele.

Does the majority of Italians at the moment seem to lean toward guilt? Maybe, maybe even probably. But I think it is grossly wrong to paint the entire country with a broad brush. Just as it is wrong for Machiavelli to do the same to the US

 

[Samson]

There is judge Hellman, and Zanetti and his jury. There is Judge Mori. There have been articles defending Amanda in Oggi and Il Tiempo. There have been politicians who have spoken up for Amanda and Raffaele.

Does the majority of Italians at the moment seem to lean toward guilt? Maybe, maybe even probably. But I think it is grossly wrong to paint the entire country with a broad brush. Just as it is wrong for Machiavelli to do the same to the US

I believe a poll since the acquittal, not sure when, showed 28 to 30% of Italians believe they are guilty. A new poll would be interesting, but they would need to be interested to even run one.

 

[acbytesla]

I believe a poll since the acquittal, not sure when, showed 28 to 30% of Italians believe they are guilty. A new poll would be interesting, but they would need to be interested to even run one.

Then it is a vocal minority. Kind of like here with PMF .NUT and .ORG. So even with the press that has been writing such horrible things about Amanda the majority thinks she is innocent. Just goes to show.

 

[Samson]

I believe a poll since the acquittal, not sure when, showed 28 to 30% of Italians believe they are guilty. A new poll would be interesting, but they would need to be interested to even run one.

That is wrong I am sorry, it is 28 to 30% believe they are innocent, or 70 to 72% believe in guilt.