Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

The term "satanic" rite wasn't used.


“The murder was premeditated, and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and, sacrificial rite … In the intention of the organisers, the rite should have occurred 24 hours earlier” – on Hallowe’en itself – “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organised by Meredith and, Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed, for one day. The presumed assassins contented themselves with the evening of 1 November to perform their do-it-yourself rite, when, for some hours it would again be the night of All Saints.”

People inferred by this statement that this meant "satanic". Also this was just what was said in court.

Well isn't that nice. So the term wasn't used. Score one for Mignini and Mach. Where did this translation come from?

Do you have anything said out of court that can be verified?

No one questions that Mignini and the ILE posited some kind of sex party game.

Also reported in the Italian media, the authorities, media, and others referred to Amanda Knox as: ” Luciferina, She-Devil, Whore, Witch, Angel Face, Diavola (she devil), Temptress, Lilith, Jezebel, Slut, Half Demon, Dirty Inside and Out, Diabolical, Party Girl, Evil, Violent, Dangerous, Jealous, Mean, Uncaring, Evil Incarnate, Compulsive Liar, Evil Fox, Sex Crazed Killer, Lesbian, Icicle Eyes, Graphomaniac, Demonic, Satanic, Diabolical She Devil, Promiscuous, Witch of Deception, (wears a) Mask of Deception, Mask of an Imposter, Cunning, Muddy on the Outside & Dirty on the Inside, Actress, Likes Hot Wild Sex, Histrionic, Face of a Naive Doll, Slovenly, Spell Casting Witch, Comes from a Family of Nazi Propagandists, Virtuoso of Deception, Dissolute, Half Maria Goretti & Half Demon, sloppy housekeeper, evil eyes, liar, terrible taste in clothes, annoying.”

Conflating again. The convo has been about "satanic rite" and to date no proof has been offered up.

Graphomaniac?

And others? Come on.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well isn't that nice. So the term wasn't used. Score one for Mignini and Mach. Where did this translation come from?

Do you have anything said out of court that can be verified?

I am truly interested in your take on the following:

If the term wasn't used, then why did Mignini wait until 2013, apparently in response to something from Spezi, to push back?

 

[acbytesla]

Well isn't that nice. So the term wasn't used. Score one for Mignini and Mach. Where did this translation come from?

I'm not sure who translated it Grinder, but this is what was reported in the Il Tiempo, and that report came from a judicial hearing. As to who translated it to English, I don't know.

That said, I think you are splitting hairs. But then again, you are very good at doing that. A sexual and sacrificial rite..."rites" are considered religious.

Do you have anything said out of court that can be verified?

What we have is the statement by Commodi that Mignini needed to drop the satanic and devil motive for her to continue. So it is a bit second hand.

 

[RoseMontague]

I am truly interested in your take on the following:

If the term wasn't used, then why did Mignini wait until 2013, apparently in response to something from Spezi, to push back?

Because he is playing games, another reason to take Spezi to court. That is how he deals with criticism and Spezi is number 1 on the enemies list.

It's attached to Halloween and the Day of the Dead and it's a manga related hard drug fueled sex game according to Mignini. What's the difference between seriously whacked and insane?

 

[Bill Williams]

Because he is playing games, another reason to take Spezi to court. That is how he deals with criticism and Spezi is number 1 on the enemies list.

It's attached to Halloween and the Day of the Dead and it's a manga related hard drug fueled sex game according to Mignini. What's the difference between seriously whacked and insane?

Ok, I'll bite.... getting whacked leads to insanity?

 

[xinonix]

"Italy is an ally, and normally one complies with extradition requests from an ally."
No. Italy was an ally of the nazi's . We invaded that country and we are still occpuying it

 

[Diocletus]

Because our extradition treaty obligation is with Italy and NOT the European Union. And US courts would only apply US laws that we are a part of.

That there may be International law would be irrelevant to a US court. But keep in mind that it is the US executive branch that has final can use the reasoning you state, but it won't be a US court that uses that reasoning. A US court is only going to look at US law which does consider treaty obligations.

I don't think there is a chance in hell that the US would extradite Amanda Knox. But then again, I didn't think the ISC would overturn the acquittal. Remember the US State Department doesn't even have to provide a reason to Italy why it won't honor the extradition request.

Well, if there is international law, including perhaps Italy's own treaty obligations, being at least informative to such international law, I don't know that that would be disregarded by a court. If a judge sees a clear violation of international law, the decision could go in an interesting direction.

 

[acbytesla]

"Italy is an ally, and normally one complies with extradition requests from an ally."
No. Italy was an ally of the nazi's . We invaded that country and we are still occpuying it

Normally, they do. That said, there are lots of extradition requests from allies that we haven't complied with.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, if there is international law, including perhaps Italy's own treaty obligations, being at least informative to such international law, I don't know that that would be disregarded by a court. If a judge sees a clear violation of international law, the decision could go in an interesting direction.

I can certainly appreciate your reasoning. I just don't think it has ANY bearing in how US law is administered. The US courts could care less about laws outside of the US. There is a process for extradition and that will be followed, nothing else.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Given the report issued by the Italian Supreme Court, supporters are anticipating a possible conviction followed by an extradition request. That will generate a political issue in Washington. Italy is an ally, and normally one complies with extradition requests from an ally. But not this time, brothers and sisters.

So it's probably a good idea to explain what may lie ahead.

Thank you for that. I guess it is a good idea to generate interest in Washington, in the event of a guilty verdict.

 

[Grinder]

I am truly interested in your take on the following:

If the term wasn't used, then why did Mignini wait until 2013, apparently in response to something from Spezi, to push back?

Even though you have failed to respond directly to my questions I will attempt to respond to yours.

As I understand it Spezi id on trial and wrote a letter about Mignini and his case. I'm not sure if anyone had ever accused Mignini of using the term satanic rite or ritual. If not, then it is perfectly reasonable that Mignini wasn't about to let it unchallenged.

Do you have one source outside of Barbie and Kercher?

Do you have one source where he is quoted by someone that actually heard him?

Do you have any Italian sources in or out of court?

Please don't give close but no cigar examples.

Notice the quote I handed you, didn't quote him or directly give attribution to him.

 

[Grinder]

I'm not sure who translated it Grinder, but this is what was reported in the Il Tiempo, and that report came from a judicial hearing. As to who translated it to English, I don't know.

That said, I think you are splitting hairs. But then again, you are very good at doing that. A sexual and sacrificial rite..."rites" are considered religious.

You and Bill have this thing going about satanic rite and when challenged you say well sexual and sacrificial rite from somewhere tranalated by someone - don't think being precise is hairsplitting.

What we have is the statement by Commodi that Mignini needed to drop the satanic and devil motive for her to continue. So it is a bit second hand.

Okay could you produce THAT quote? Barbie also said that they found mixed blood and she checked with 9 forensic scientists so that must also be true, right?

 

[Bill Williams]

Even though you have failed to respond directly to my questions I will attempt to respond to yours.

As I understand it Spezi id on trial and wrote a letter about Mignini and his case. I'm not sure if anyone had ever accused Mignini of using the term satanic rite or ritual. If not, then it is perfectly reasonable that Mignini wasn't about to let it unchallenged.

Do you have one source outside of Barbie and Kercher?

Ah, er.... Barbie and Kercher for starters? Comodi (if you believe Nadeau)? I'm not stuck on this, really I'm not. It's just amazing to read this - perhaps you didn't mean it to sound this way.

Like I said, I feel like I'm stuck on a merry go round with this nit picking. "Show me where this was ever mentioned, except for all those people and publications which mentioned it...." I'm sure that's not what you meant to say, but there it is...

Me, I go with acbytesla.

ETA - and to repeat: Machiavelli said he had transcripts which proved all this as wrong. Then he said he wouldn't print them because, "That wouldn't be right." This has been an amazing couple of days....

 

[Grinder]

Ah, er.... Barbie and Kercher for starters? Comodi (if you believe Nadeau)? I'm not stuck on this, really I'm not. It's just amazing to read this - perhaps you didn't mean it to sound this way.

I'm talking about Italian sources not the Daily Beast or the Sun. Something that Mignini might care about.

 

[Bill Williams]

Even though you have failed to respond directly to my questions I will attempt to respond to yours.

As I understand it Spezi id on trial and wrote a letter about Mignini and his case. I'm not sure if anyone had ever accused Mignini of using the term satanic rite or ritual. If not, then it is perfectly reasonable that Mignini wasn't about to let it unchallenged.

But I should be consistent... at least you've given it a go at explaining, "why now?" That's what is of interest in all this.

It's just a matter of record that Mignini had to have been aware, in 2007-'08, that this allegation was in the wind.

I suppose that if Mignini thought Spezi's letter carried THAT much weight, right now in 2013, the Mignini could respond legitimately... however, don't people in the legal community as a matter of course refrain from public comment? Why would Mignini want to "get the message out there" in the court of public opinion on this issue? Esp. if Mach has, it is claimed, transcripts which COULD be used in court to prove Spezi wrong?

 

[Bill Williams]

I'm talking about Italian sources not the Daily Beast or the Sun. Something that Mignini might care about.

I know you are. None of this is, really, the point. You've given it a go at saying why t might be of interest to Mignini in 2013, but why would Mignini need to have this in a letter to the editor denying it?

Because as said before, the reason why Mignini would not care about Satanic ritual in 2007-'08 would be that it was all part and parcel of the tabloid frenzy in England AND Italy that non-sequestered juries could follow, to the obvious detriment of the defendants.

The point is, why now? The point is as I have speculated, Mignini fears that it's now working against him and he wants to get out in front of the curve.

 

[Machiavelli]

Let’s assume for sake of argument that Machiavelli’s latest tale is true: the Italian press/Corriere della Sera made up the whole Halloween/Satanic riti thing out of thin air (I don’t actually believe for one second that law enforcement had nothing to do with this meme, however; and in fact, Machiavelli seems to admit in his double-speak way, that these “riti” were alleged in court).

What that would mean is that Mignini stood by while a defendant was being helplessly prejudiced in the press with false and sensational allegations. He stood there silently for years, allowing this meme to flourish, because it helped the prosecution by making the defendants look like evil and sick people, capable of murder and deserving of punishment. Mignini acceded to these allegations because they helped the prosecution by prejudicing the defendants in a country that conducts extremely lengthy trials, doesn’t sequester its jurors and is peculiarly superstitious.
(...)

There was no such meme that ever flourished in Italy. Nobody in Italy has ever spoken about a satanic rite. This peculiar piece of "sensationalist" information is pure British-Tabloids and American stuff.
Or prove otherwise. Cite or quote those puported many Italian press sources that you assert went on repeating a story.
The allegation about satanic rites belongs to English speaking media, to anglophone sites. But not to Italian newspapers, commentators or sources. You won't find it in any Italian paper or tabloid. You would even find very scant presence of the "Foxy Knoxy" nickname, papers reported it only explaining that this was a nick the British tabloids used.
Do you think Perugians ever thought about satanic rituals associated to the Kercher case? The only person who made this association, as far as I know. was Gabriella Carlizzi on her blog.
(and btw, even if they Perugians heared a "satanic" scenario allegation, who do you think would care? Amanda Knox told false ludicrous stories and accused an innocent. This is what matters to Italians).

So, Mignini, being the opportunist that he is, now, six years later, decides that he should distance himself from this ridiculous meme. He is not doing this because of some perceived unfairness to the defendants or even to protect the system; rather, he is doing to save his own face.

(..).

Mignini responds to Spezi, a professional defamator with multiple criminal records and pending charges, who places false allegations against him on a Florentine newspaper.

Do you remember when a journalist (Velez-Mitchell?) approached Mignini while he was sitting at a cafe in Corso Vannucci, and asked him whether he still believed in a satanic scenario? That happened years ago. To the woman journalist, apparently the fact that he proposed a satanic scenario was taken as a given fact. Mignini apparently quite annoyed and surprised, objected that he never presented any satanic scenario.
Whenever a journalist put the question, the guy appered surprised and just always flatly denied ever having to do with offering a satanic scenario.
He told the same to any journalist who asked the question.
I mean he did so the first time ever he was asked, not after six years.

But the question, to Mignini, was not why people on obscure blogs or tabloid scribblers went on talking or believing about satanic orgy scenarios. The actual question would have been, why American tv networks decided to jump onto an appalling pro-murderer PR campaign cart. That was the point to answer, and to address to public opinion. But Mignini never did it. He never made press conferences nor press releases. Except sueing Preston (whom he had direct contact with) and another unknown journalist quoting Preston, he did nothing to fight the monstruosity of the defamation campaign that was put up against him in the US and in the English speaking world.
If you demand that Mignini should have "explained" to the english world that he did not put forward a satanic scenario, your expectetion is groutesque.
How many other things, the English speaking public should have been "explained" by their showpersons and scribblers, in order to set the records straight? Unfortunately, shame goes on the big networks and press, on their system of bogus information and on US xenophobia that feeds them; not on Mignini, nor on Italy.

 

[Grinder]

But I should be consistent... at least you've given it a go at explaining, "why now?" That's what is of interest in all this.

It's just a matter of record that Mignini had to have been aware, in 2007-'08, that this allegation was in the wind.

Bill he might be aware of a number of posters that call him every name in the book BUT NOBODY READS THEM IN ITALY so he doesn't care.

I suppose that if Mignini thought Spezi's letter carried THAT much weight, right now in 2013, the Mignini could respond legitimately... however, don't people in the legal community as a matter of course refrain from public comment? Why would Mignini want to "get the message out there" in the court of public opinion on this issue? Esp. if Mach has, it is claimed, transcripts which COULD be used in court to prove Spezi wrong?

The paper printed Spezi's letter and Mignini responded. It was in what city's paper? Bill, as I've told you one can't prove that type of negative. If Mach gave you every document possible you'd say that Barbie and JK must have gotten it from somewhere.

I know you are. None of this is, really, the point. You've given it a go at saying why t might be of interest to Mignini in 2013, but why would Mignini need to have this in a letter to the editor denying it?

Asked and answered.

Because as said before, the reason why Mignini would not care about Satanic ritual in 2007-'08 would be that it was all part and parcel of the tabloid frenzy in England AND Italy that non-sequestered juries could follow, to the obvious detriment of the defendants.

The point is, why now? The point is as I have speculated, Mignini fears that it's now working against him and he wants to get out in front of the curve.

Okay so what? Papers report all sorts of negative stuff about the kids, do you expect any prosecutor in the world to come to their rescue? Then a journalist gets a letter published attacking the prosecutor and he responds, big deal.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that Italian papers also ran "satanic ritual" stories but as of yet you and your team of investigators have yet to come up with anything but tabs and Barbie.

Why don't you ask CD I'm sure she heard him on her many trips to Perugia. Or Follain.

 

[xinonix]

(Newser) – "Amanda Knox was supposed to give a big jailhouse interview to coincide with her upcoming slander trial, but Italian officials canceled it at the last minute. Noted Knox hater Barbie Latza Nadeau was crestfallen, she writes for the DailyBeast, because she had a whole list of nasty questions she'd have loved to hear Foxy Knoxy answer. Including:

1. Why was your blood mixed in with Meredith Kercher's at the crime scene?
2. When you realized Patrick Lumumba wasn't guilty of the murder, why didn't you tell anyone?
3. Why weren't your fingerprints found in your house after the murder, if you were there taking a shower that morning?
4. If you could go back in time to November 3, 2007, what would you do differently? Would you attend Kercher's funeral? Would you have left for Germany when your aunt asked you to?
5. Who do you think killed Meredith Kercher?"

They are making a movie based on Barbie Nadeau's book Angel face, Is she still a noted Knox Hater?
I will answer your questions Barbie
1) It wasn't Knox's blood, it was her dna from her dead skin cells and such that got dissolved in Meredith's blood.
2) I never thought Patrick was guilty of murder. Why would I realize that ***hole?
3) like ,duh........I lived in that house, my fingerprints were all over it.
4) I would have been in the Fatherland ASAP.
5) duh.....Rudy Guede, everybody knows that.

 

[Machiavelli]

I know you are. None of this is, really, the point. You've given it a go at saying why t might be of interest to Mignini in 2013, but why would Mignini need to have this in a letter to the editor denying it?(...)

Mignini cares about Spezi. He wants to "get" Spezi, he doesn't want to allow him to take free points. He will strike him on his false steps.
Spezi wrote an article - not a letter - on the Florentine issue of Il Corriere. So his letter - a letter to the director, not to Spezi - appears like a message to discredit Spezi in the eys of his readers and potential suporters, but also a to the newspaper director and to discourage or warn those newspapers who might still host Spezi's articles.
Spezi was basically thrown out from "his" newspaper - La Nazione - where they don't even answer him any more - not just because of his criminal records but also because of his alcoholic habit - but sometimes he is hosted elsewhere (by Brindani & friends). It's unusual for Spezi now to place an article in Il Corriere Fiorentino, he did so only purporting he had the scoop of an "interview with Amanda Knox" on the days before the trial begun. But now Mignini is a "free citizen", he is totally uninvolved in the Kercher case and in the case against Spezi, so he can respond to the allegations he makes in the Florentine arena.