Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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acbytesla said:
The case against Napoleoni is one where if you use logic, you can tell that she was involved. There is no reason for her underling Lorena Zugarini to have been investigating the psychologist entirely on her own.
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Pfft. I prefer osmosis. Logic is for chumps.

Curiously, osmosis also tells me that Napoleoni was involved.
 
RandyN said:
This is the one thing I disagree with Hendry about. I think Guede partially lifted and slid MK to the middle of the room. I think he used her bra strap (the large center one) as his handle on her body. He may well have done this thru other layers of clothing like the thin undershirt or maybe even thru the blue jacket but I doubt that since I believe the blue jacket came off in the fight. Guide grabbed her by the hair and hood and she broke free by slipping out of her jacket. The jacket would easily slip off but when he went back he grabbed hair and that is an inescapable hold. I still think the pillow was incidential and likely on the floor and she partially was on in due to Guedes turning her over and back to undress her. This also prolonged her life although not her consciousness...turning her over would allow her lungs to drain a bit and start the cough reflex...returned to her back would allow blood to flow into her lungs once more...a cough or two perhaps and then death. The swirl marks are from hair and upper body. He moved her to get her out of the blood. He wanted her out of the blood so that he would not get any on himself as he sexually assaulted her.
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He also gave himself more space to work with by moving her into the middle of the room.

The crime scene does not memorialize every detail of what happened. It tells a story in broad strokes. She was in front of the wardrobe when he cut her throat, and he dragged her to the spot where she was found. I don't see any other way to explain the details shown in the photos. But I don't know if it's possible to be sure whether he did so with the jacket or the strap of her bra.
 
Bill Williams said:
A measured and reasonable response? Well, is it not a PM/investigator interfering publically with a matter before the courts? Otherwise, my problem with it is not that it is measured and reasonable - which it more than likely is. Mignini has a right to defend himself - a right which he exercises rather well, I should say.

But you're catching on. No, I cannot give another example of Mignini drawing a line in the sand like this - apparently (so far) neither can anyone else. Folk here have speculated as to why, and it remains speculation - albeit a reasonable one. Satanic Rite allegations served Mignini's case when the tabloids were in full gear, now not so much.



This is where the argument here slips back into other stuff. Again, just to represent my side of the merry-go-round, there were an awful lot of people back then who reported that he did say this. Nadeau is one (and Mignini supporters - one at least - calles her a liar), John Kercher is another who can reasonably be assumed to have got this knowledge either directly from Mignini himself, or maybe Maresca. True Kercher's account says nothing about if either Maresca or Mignini actually believed it, but Kercher seemed to have believed it, acknowledging that Mignini's claim was "controversial."

That's the sum total of it for me. Evaluate it as you will. I can only pretty much cut and paste from here on in.


Key to Spezi's case, unless I'm wrong, is that Mignini consulted the Perugian psychic for help in the Narducci issue. Spezi claims, someone can correct me if I am wrong, is that this guided Mignini in the early going of the Kercher murder, a horrible event which happened the day after Hallowe'en.

The line in the sand for Mignini is to deny this, as he did with his letter to the editor. That's what makes it an issue in 2013, where it was not one (apparently) in 2007-'08.

It may be Kool-Ade (I go with the old packaging), but there has to be some reason why Mignini would not visibly complain about this years ago, but now, in 2013, is trying to actively debunk the claim.
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Actually I think the psychic was based out of Rome. The dead priest she channeled may reside in Perugia possibly.
 
Grinder said:
Doesn't the whole case here belie the conspiracy theories of ILE in Perugia.
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Sorta confirms it as to Napoleoni and her cops, dontcha think? Also, this judge, whoever it is, tried to give Napoleoni a pass on the hooliganism, so s/he he may be in cahoots.

The only one who acted in a surprising manner is the prosecutor who filed the charges and then filed the appeal. Who is this prosecutor, and how does s/he know Napoleoni's ex, a lawyer?
 
Diocletus said:
Pfft. I prefer osmosis. Logic is for chumps.

Curiously, osmosis also tells me that Napoleoni was involved.
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How in the word does the judicial world in Italy find their way to using the term osmosis or osmotic to describe a case? Osmosis is about liquid passing through a barrier. The way the Italians are using it, basically means that they can come to a decision by "magic".
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
He also gave himself more space to work with by moving her into the middle of the room.

The crime scene does not memorialize every detail of what happened. It tells a story in broad strokes. She was in front of the wardrobe when he cut her throat, and he dragged her to the spot where she was found. I don't see any other way to explain the details shown in the photos. But I don't know if it's possible to be sure whether he did so with the jacket or the strap of her bra.
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No, I agree that the data is semi-limited. The blood spatter evidence IMO is something that so far has been under-utilized in piecing together this crime. On her back MK even though passed out would quickly "drown" do to blood flow into her lungs. Whereas being rolled over from back to front would allow this blood to clear somewhat from her lungs and allow the cough reflex to clear the air way....this would cause the aspirated blood droplets and they would be diminishing as the ability to refill the lungs with air was gradually removed by displacement caused by the blood. The lighter droplets on the bra and then even lighter droplets on the bare skin tell a story that is less than well examined.
 
acbytesla said:
How in the word does the judicial world in Italy find their way to using the term osmosis or osmotic to describe a case? Osmosis is about liquid passing through a barrier. The way the Italians are using it, basically means that they can come to a decision by "magic".
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Don't you understand? This is mathematically certain. Simple Italian logic.
 
smkovalinksy said:
Forgive me if this has already been posted (hard to catch up on all these many pages) but does anyone think a Congressional Briefing will amount to anything?

Or is it merely a public gesture? What are its implications?

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=679890635368744&id=106344459390034
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Given the report issued by the Italian Supreme Court, supporters are anticipating a possible conviction followed by an extradition request. That will generate a political issue in Washington. Italy is an ally, and normally one complies with extradition requests from an ally. But not this time, brothers and sisters.

So it's probably a good idea to explain what may lie ahead.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
Given the report issued by the Italian Supreme Court, supporters are anticipating a possible conviction followed by an extradition request. That will generate a political issue in Washington. Italy is an ally, and normally one complies with extradition requests from an ally. But not this time, brothers and sisters.

So it's probably a good idea to explain what may lie ahead.
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Let's hope that Florence is not as insane as the Supreme Court.
 
acbytesla said:
How in the word does the judicial world in Italy find their way to using the term osmosis or osmotic to describe a case? Osmosis is about liquid passing through a barrier. The way the Italians are using it, basically means that they can come to a decision by "magic".
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Osmosis is performed by plants. An Italian supreme court judge has roughly the IQ of a plant.

See how it works?
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
Given the report issued by the Italian Supreme Court, supporters are anticipating a possible conviction followed by an extradition request. That will generate a political issue in Washington. Italy is an ally, and normally one complies with extradition requests from an ally. But not this time, brothers and sisters.

So it's probably a good idea to explain what may lie ahead.
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I wonder if a US extradition court could adjudicate whether the Italian trial violated Italy's obligations under the ECHR. That would be a fascinating proceeding. And very dangerous for the Italians.
 
Diocletus said:
I wonder if a US extradition court could adjudicate whether the Italian trial violated Italy's obligations under the ECHR. That would be a fascinating proceeding. And very dangerous for the Italians.
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I doubt it. Not unless the US is a signatory of the ECHR,
 
acbytesla said:
They will apply US laws and US treaties to any ruling to extradite. Or it will never get that far. That the State department will just refuse to extradite.
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Yes, but if Italy violated the ECHR, in a way that also happens to be a violation of international law and US law, then . . .

Example: Knox is entitled to trial under ECHR, international and US law. But, she didn't get a "trial," because ISC mistook some other guy's (Rudy's) trial for Knox's trial, thus violating its obligations under the ECHR. Does she get extradited on the basis of Rudy's trial? Lots that a US judge could do with this if so inclined.
 
Diocletus said:
Yes, but if Italy violated the ECHR, in a way that also happens to be a violation of international law and US law, then . . .

Example: Knox is entitled to trial under ECHR, international and US law. But, she didn't get a "trial," because ISC mistook some other guy's (Rudy's) trial for Knox's trial, thus violating its obligations under the ECHR. Does she get extradited on the basis of Rudy's trial? Lots that a US judge could do with this if so inclined.
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It may be a European International law, which almost certainly only applies to nations that are part of the European Union. Now, if the US has some sort of treaty obligation that relates to the ECHR, than maybe, but I don't think it does.
 
acbytesla said:
It may be a European International law, which almost certainly only applies to nations that are part of the European Union. Now, if the US has some sort of treaty obligation that relates to the ECHR, than maybe, but I don't think it does.
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Well, the ECHR is Italy's international obligation. US courts apply international law. Would a US court apply the ECHR in a case involving Italy? Not sure. Would a US court apply "international law" that says the same thing as the ECHR and US law? Why not?
 
Diocletus said:
Well, the ECHR is Italy's international obligation. US courts apply international law. Would a US court apply the ECHR in a case involving Italy? Not sure. Would a US court apply "international law" that says the same thing as the ECHR and US law? Why not?
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Because our extradition treaty obligation is with Italy and NOT the European Union. And US courts would only apply US laws that we are a part of.

That there may be International law would be irrelevant to a US court. But keep in mind that it is the US executive branch that has final can use the reasoning you state, but it won't be a US court that uses that reasoning. A US court is only going to look at US law which does consider treaty obligations.

I don't think there is a chance in hell that the US would extradite Amanda Knox. But then again, I didn't think the ISC would overturn the acquittal. Remember the US State Department doesn't even have to provide a reason to Italy why it won't honor the extradition request.
 
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