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. . . And, despite your joy at feeling as if you have something else to mock me for. please, I suggest to you, even implore you, read what I said, what I actually said: How can what happens among consenting adults in my demesne affect you . . . .

Yes, you said that, but that isn't all you said, and it isn't the statement of your making to which I responded. In Post 8407, dated Oct. 18 [responding to Janadele] you wrote: "Again, I ask the question you have never answered: How can anything that happens among consenting adults lin the privacy of my home affect you, in any way at all" [emphasis added]. [/quote]

I don't know anything about your home, but inasmuch as you were using it to make a representative, universal point, what I know or don't know about your home is irrelevant. The fact is, events can and do transpire between consenting adults in the privacy of their homes that affect the citizenry at large. Examples: they run a drug business out of their homes. . .they grow pot in their basements. . .they set up a counterfeiting operation. . . they design and implement an internet scam. . .they hack their way into sensitive government documents. Perhaps, however, you had sexual relationships in mind when you wrote what you did. I assume you are aware that near-suffocation of a female during intercourse is believed to heighten erotic pleasure. Sometimes that practice, carried too far, leaves the woman brain damaged. She ends up on in a long-term care facility on a ventilator. They have no medical insurance, nor do they have the resources to pay out-of-pocket. Who then finances the woman's care?

Your statement (the one to which I responded) simply isn't true. It's both simplistic and naive.
 
I assume you are aware that near-suffocation of a female during intercourse is believed to heighten erotic pleasure...

...or a man, in a heterosexual, homosexual, polygynous or polyandrous relationship. So should we now ban all possible relationships, just in case someone, somewhere does something dangerous in bed one night?

This is a fallacy of composition. Yes, sometimes things go wrong in a relationship and people get hurt. No, this is not the case for everybody (or even for a large subset of "everybody.")

I don't think that human rights should be dependent on what-ifs such as your scenario, nor do I feel that religious communities should be able to wield veto power over the rights of non-members.
 
Yes, you said that, but that isn't all you said, and it isn't the statement of your making to which I responded. In Post 8407, dated Oct. 18 [responding to Janadele] you wrote: "Again, I ask the question you have never answered: How can anything that happens among consenting adults lin the privacy of my home affect you, in any way at all" [emphasis added].

I don't know anything about your home, but inasmuch as you were using it to make a representative, universal point, what I know or don't know about your home is irrelevant. The fact is, events can and do transpire between consenting adults in the privacy of their homes that affect the citizenry at large. Examples: they run a drug business out of their homes. . .they grow pot in their basements. . .they set up a counterfeiting operation. . . they design and implement an internet scam. . .they hack their way into sensitive government documents. Perhaps, however, you had sexual relationships in mind when you wrote what you did. I assume you are aware that near-suffocation of a female during intercourse is believed to heighten erotic pleasure. Sometimes that practice, carried too far, leaves the woman brain damaged. She ends up on in a long-term care facility on a ventilator. They have no medical insurance, nor do they have the resources to pay out-of-pocket. Who then finances the woman's care?

Your statement (the one to which I responded) simply isn't true. It's both simplistic and naive.

What a load. This is an epic straw man.

What has this to do with the privacy heretofore discussed?

Why does this give you the right to prodnose in others bedrooms?

And what on earth does this have to do with the fraudulent nature of the BoA and the BoM?
 
Yes, you said that, but that isn't all you said, and it isn't the statement of your making to which I responded. In Post 8407, dated Oct. 18 [responding to Janadele] you wrote: "Again, I ask the question you have never answered: How can anything that happens among consenting adults lin the privacy of my home affect you, in any way at all" [emphasis added].

I don't know anything about your home, but1 inasmuch as you were using it to make a representative, universal point, what I know or don't know about your home is irrelevant. The fact is, events can and do transpire between consenting adults in the privacy of their homes that affect the citizenry at large. Examples: 2they run a drug business out of their homes. . .they grow pot in their basements. . .they set up a counterfeiting operation. . . they design and implement an internet scam. . .they hack their way into sensitive government documents. 3 Perhaps, however, you had sexual relationships in mind when you wrote what you did. 4I assume you are aware that near-suffocation of a female during intercourse is believed to heighten erotic pleasure. Sometimes that practice, carried too far, leaves the woman brain damaged. She ends up on in a long-term care facility on a ventilator. They have no medical insurance, nor do they have the resources to pay out-of-pocket. 5Who then finances the woman's care?

Your statement (the one to which I responded) simply isn't true. It's both simplistic and naive.

When do you intend to apply for the MDC? At 1, you pretend to be able to read my mind, and divine my thougths, even discern my motives--in contradistinction, in fact, to what I have said, and repeated, and continue to say. Just for the record, this is not the first time you have pretended to know, better than I know myself, what I "really meant" by what I have said. It would probably be a good idea for you to wean yourself of this uncivil and transparent habit.

For the purposes of this discussion, I have intentionally limited my question to A.) consenting B.) adults C.) in my demesne. Whatever you imagine may be going on, it is up to you to demonstrate how the fact that you are forced to imagine it demonstrates that is affects you in any way.

Starting at 2, you list a parade of horrors...not one of which happens on my demesne. You probably ought to consider an apology for the suggestions.

The desperation and futility of your argument is evidenced by a subtle truth. Suppose, just suppose, I were, in fact, cooking meth on my property (I do know how), or making explosives out of household chemicals (even easier) or distilling moonshine. How does what happens (pay attention) On MY PROPERTY, among consenting adults, affect you (or anyone else)? Think--it's an exercise for the student. Be careful not to substitute your ire and indignation, and your perfervid imagination, for reality...

At 3, I must respond by pointing out that you are not reading my scenario, at all. Do consider paying attention.

At 4, I have to ask: is it your experience that erotic asphyxiation is a female-specific activity? Just curious.

At 5, I must alter your scenario somewhat. Rather than fuel your prurient fantasy, consider instead a scenario where a companion and I are felling a tree (with permission--it is private property surrounded by Nat'l Forrest)--and I am using the experience to give the companion the opportunity to learn how to fell, well. Suppose something goes unexpectedly wrong, and, instead of dropping the snag in the selected bald, my companion, following my instructions, is under the timber when it falls; worse, my companion's pelvis is crushed, and my companion is never able to walk again, much less complete the master's in dance that brought companion to the area in the first place. Who will pay for companion's care? First, I carry excellent homeowner's insurance, for scenaria such as this. Second, companion has insurance. Third, I have my sense of loyalty, propriety, and responsibility.

...I do not know how things work within your ambit, nor care I to speculate.

So once again, your inventions founder on the reefs of reality.

Do note that I am not suggesting (nor have I ever suggested) that you should be expected to live up to my standards; instead, I insist that your sect has no right to impose the standards of your superstitions against me and mine, particularly among consenting adults in my demesne.

...and do consider improving your hypotheticals.

Now:

About the patent historical errors in the BoM: Do please explain how your sect's eschatological superstitions are supposed to repair factual error, in the "end times".

About the transparent fraud of the BoA: Do please explain how Abraham's autographic anti-Egyptian screed came to be included in standard Egyptian funerary texts.

Oh, yes: do please explain how homosexual activity is supposed to result in a flood of welfare orphans. I must have missed a chapter in the Bio textbooks from which I was teaching.
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Yes, you said that, but that isn't all you said, and it isn't the statement of your making to which I responded. In Post 8407, dated Oct. 18 [responding to Janadele] you wrote: "Again, I ask the question you have never answered: How can anything that happens among consenting adults lin the privacy of my home affect you, in any way at all" [emphasis added].

I don't know anything about your home, but inasmuch as you were using it to make a representative, universal point, what I know or don't know about your home is irrelevant. The fact is, events can and do transpire between consenting adults in the privacy of their homes that affect the citizenry at large. Examples: they run a drug business out of their homes. . .they grow pot in their basements. . .they set up a counterfeiting operation. . . they design and implement an internet scam. . .they hack their way into sensitive government documents. Perhaps, however, you had sexual relationships in mind when you wrote what you did. I assume you are aware that near-suffocation of a female during intercourse is believed to heighten erotic pleasure. Sometimes that practice, carried too far, leaves the woman brain damaged. She ends up on in a long-term care facility on a ventilator. They have no medical insurance, nor do they have the resources to pay out-of-pocket. Who then finances the woman's care?

Your statement (the one to which I responded) simply isn't true. It's both simplistic and naive.

So it's true that one can do illegal things inside a home. Sure, but most of the things you mention are illegal wherever they occur. This distinguishes them in most parts of the country from a rather wide variety of heterosexual and homosexual acts, which are not illegal when done in private. What two consenting adults do side by side to someone else is also not what is meant by an act between consenting adults. It is presumed, I think, by those who use language in a conventional way, that an act between consenting adults involves only those who are consenting. Even in places where the things consenting adults do is considered a crime, it is the act between them that is a crime. It is not a "consenting adult" issue if what they do would be illegal no matter who did it! In other words, in case my point escapes you, such things as growing pot or counterfeiting or stealing government secrets are not what is meant when one speaks of things done between consenting adults. It's bogus, a bad argument, a foolish misunderstanding of terms, and (opinions of course can vary on this) something I would consider a disgrace and a discredit.

In any case, even if you have pointed out the ambiguity or flaw in a statement about possible effect, you have not, thereby, given anyone any reason to believe that the remedy for any crimes occurring anywhere except within a church is in the province of any church.

So, perhaps you have succeeded in finding a hole in a statement, making a small ambiguity of language into a huge straw sculpture, but the fact still remains that you have not come up with a good argument to address the question of why a church should regulate the sexual practices of those who are not members of it, and why a church should regulate civil law for those who are not members of it.

Now I would contend that as an individual, you are entirely within your rights to condemn or condone what you will, and to express that. I would also say that you are entirely within your rights to use your convictions or beliefs to influence civil law and to expound as you will on them. What I emphatically do not believe is that a church organization itself is within its rights to lobby. Churches are favored in this society with generous exemptions from taxation and regulation, and as part of the bargain, they have no civil function. The separation of church and state benefits and protects both, but churches cannot choose when they will or won't enjoy it. When members of a church take their religious opinions into the civil sphere they are no different from any other opinions, and enjoy no protection from argument, no exemption from the need for justification, and no shelter from ridicule. We are not in church here.
 
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I don't know anything about your home, but inasmuch as you were using it to make a representative, universal point, what I know or don't know about your home is irrelevant. The fact is, events can and do transpire between consenting adults in the privacy of their homes that affect the citizenry at large. Examples: they run a drug business out of their homes. . .they grow pot in their basements. . .they set up a counterfeiting operation. . . they design and implement an internet scam. . .they hack their way into sensitive government documents. Perhaps, however, you had sexual relationships in mind when you wrote what you did. I assume you are aware that near-suffocation of a female during intercourse is believed to heighten erotic pleasure. Sometimes that practice, carried too far, leaves the woman brain damaged. She ends up on in a long-term care facility on a ventilator. They have no medical insurance, nor do they have the resources to pay out-of-pocket. Who then finances the woman's care?

Your statement (the one to which I responded) simply isn't true. It's both simplistic and naive.

Dude.

Focus.

We're discussing marriage equality, not autoerotic asphyxiation, pot or counterfeiting. You're getting lost in irrelevant tangents. As a result you're answering a question that no one asked.

Now, what in Mormon or LDS doctrine gives you the right to dictate who Non-Mormons can marry? Right now, your argument sounds like you want a theocracy, where the Mormons decide what is and is not illegal. Is that your argument? If so, how far do you intend to take it? A return of prohibition? Banning coffee?

Are you just bitter that the Mormons got the smackdown on polygamy? That would mean you're opposing marriage equality for homosexuals out of sour grapes. Frankly, I'd find that a less disturbing line of reasoning than the theocracy tack.
 
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There are many Scriptural references one could cite Frozenwolf, from our pre existence to Adam to today... but one must receive ones own understanding of the Eternal Plan of Salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit, by Scripture study, and from the words of the Prophets, Seers and Revelators, who are The Twelve Apostles and The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (snip)

One, you didn't really answer my question.

Two, if I must receive my own understanding, doesn't that immediately contradict the idea that I must receive it through the various avenues you seek to impose?

Three, and others have asked, why should your rules apply to non-Mormons?
 
... But going solely by the numbers that they, themselves provided, once extrapolated, it showed that the Mormon church uses less than one-percent of its yearly income for welfare. What a great scheme they've set up. And all perfectly legal. Perfectly moral? Well, that's another story. ...
I think that's entirely in line with the sort of double-think that tries to justify Smith's 'translation' of an Egyptian funeral text as 'inspired'.



Yes, you said that, but that isn't all you said, and it isn't the statement of your making to which I responded. In Post 8407, dated Oct. 18 [responding to Janadele] you wrote: "Again, I ask the question you have never answered: How can anything that happens among consenting adults lin the privacy of my home affect you, in any way at all" [emphasis added].

I don't know anything about your home, but inasmuch as you were using it to make a representative, universal point, what I know or don't know about your home is irrelevant. The fact is, events can and do transpire between consenting adults in the privacy of their homes that affect the citizenry at large. Examples: they run a drug business out of their homes. . .they grow pot in their basements. . .they set up a counterfeiting operation. . . they design and implement an internet scam. . .they hack their way into sensitive government documents. Perhaps, however, you had sexual relationships in mind when you wrote what you did. I assume you are aware that near-suffocation of a female during intercourse is believed to heighten erotic pleasure. Sometimes that practice, carried too far, leaves the woman brain damaged. She ends up on in a long-term care facility on a ventilator. They have no medical insurance, nor do they have the resources to pay out-of-pocket. Who then finances the woman's care?

Your statement (the one to which I responded) simply isn't true. It's both simplistic and naive.
Right.
This is exactly the response I would expect would impress a Mormon audience.
Here, not so much, skyrider.

I've been asking for some time about your take on the demonstrably fraudulent base of the BoA.
Do you think there's any benefit to supporting a lie, skyrider?
 
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No it is NOT.

1. Cat has proven herself to be a much more trustworthy person when it comes to discussing LDS dogma. I doubt anyone here is going to believe you over her on questions of dogma.

2. Of all the questions asked, you choose to flat out deny posthumous baptism and ascension to Godhood after death, two fundamental aspects of Mormon doctrine. Why? Is the idea of being reunited with your husband as a goddess for an eternity of celestial sex and childbearing THAT abhorrent?

3. You STILL haven't answered my repeated question about marriage equality. What gives Mormons the right to impose their rules for behavior on non-Mormons?

4. How far do you want to take the theocracy necessitated by allowing conservative religion to keep gays from getting married?
 
1. Cat has proven herself to be a much more trustworthy person when it comes to discussing LDS dogma. I doubt anyone here is going to believe you over her on questions of dogma.

2. Of all the questions asked, you choose to flat out deny posthumous baptism and ascension to Godhood after death, two fundamental aspects of Mormon doctrine. Why? Is the idea of being reunited with your husband as a goddess for an eternity of celestial sex and childbearing THAT abhorrent?

3. You STILL haven't answered my repeated question about marriage equality. What gives Mormons the right to impose their rules for behavior on non-Mormons?

4. How far do you want to take the theocracy necessitated by allowing conservative religion to keep gays from getting married?

Well, to be fair, she did give you this insightful and well-thought out response to your excellent post from yesterday:


How could that answer not inspire excellent discussion? :rolleyes:

Just to add to what others already said, your post that inspired that "comment" from Janadele was truly excellent.
 
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