LDS

[Nay_Sayer]

Slow Vehicle, Rand Fan and others.. you are inventing claims and statements you say I have made whilst having no words of mine to support such suppositions nor prerogative to do so.

False, They devined your statements from solid cheese plates read inside a laundry bag.

 

[bruto]

Oh, no, she din't...really?

I thought Jack Mormons don't believe in reincarnation?

OH yeah, she did, but not in this thread. It is probably actually off topic in this thread. It is, after all, quite possible to be wrong on one subject and right on another, and it probably ought to be considered "poisoning the well" to criticize Janadele's religious assertions even if on other subjects one considers her a crackpot or a lunatic. She has, after all, provided abundant on-topic material to dispute.

 

[deaman]

Sacred Scripture cannot be fraudulent pakeha.

What people believe to be sacred scripture, can be fraudulent, as evidenced by the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Abraham.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Slow Vehicle, Rand Fan and others.. you are inventing claims and statements you say I have made whilst having no words of mine to support such suppositions nor prerogative to do so.

Let's do this:

Do you DENY claiming that the Spencer Lake horse skull supported the presence of horse culture in the pre-Colombian americas?

Do you DENY claiming that you knew of a minister who had been 'gaoled' for refusing to perform same-sex weddings?

Do you DENY copypasting the entire screed from Liberty Alliance?

Do you intend to address a substantive question, ever?

 

[deaman]

Is that in the same way you remember being Elizabeth I, and writing much of what is attributed to Shakespeare?

Oooh yeah..................is this for real, Janadele?

Were you Elizabeth I, and did you write all of Shakespeare?

 

[Slowvehicle]

OH yeah, she did, but not in this thread. It is probably actually off topic in this thread. It is, after all, quite possible to be wrong on one subject and right on another, and it probably ought to be considered "poisoning the well" to criticize Janadele's religious assertions even if on other subjects one considers her a crackpot or a lunatic. She has, after all, provided abundant on-topic material to dispute.

I only bring up Janadele's Elizabeth I claims to investigate the quality of "memories of pre-mortal existence" and other memories, by which Janadele claims to know that the BoM/BoA are sacred.

 

[Empress]

Oh, no, she din't...really?

I thought Jack Mormons don't believe in reincarnation?

It appears to have been in a PM, and to MikeG's credit, he wouldn't reveal the contents. But you can read the relevant post here. Here is where she makes the original claim about much of Shakespeare's writing actually being that of Elizabeth I. She's re-written the sonnet into a series of couplets and says that's the way the author wanted it.

 

[bruto]

I only bring up Janadele's Elizabeth I claims to investigate the quality of "memories of pre-mortal existence" and other memories, by which Janadele claims to know that the BoM/BoA are sacred.

Fair enough, but it did not actually occur in this thread.

For those curious enough (or with a penchant for rubbernecking at wrecks), a pertinent thread is here, although I am not sure that the assertion of reincarnation was made initially on this forum at all:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205712

 

[desertgal]

OH yeah, she did, but not in this thread. It is probably actually off topic in this thread. It is, after all, quite possible to be wrong on one subject and right on another, and it probably ought to be considered "poisoning the well" to criticize Janadele's religious assertions even if on other subjects one considers her a crackpot or a lunatic. She has, after all, provided abundant on-topic material to dispute.

Oh, no, I wasn't trying to steer the thread into discussion of that. Just wasn't sure if my eyes deceived me. Thanks. Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

 

[RandFan]

Here is a great comparison by Mormon B.H. Roberts between the View of the Hebrews and the BOM.

As I have previously mentioned many times. This thread is LDS. Anti Mormon propaganda is not the subject of this thread , and has nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has no relation to the topic of this thread, and if the Anti Mormons had any scruples or honesty at all they would start their own thread... a good title would be "The Cult of Anti-Mormonism."

B.H. Roberts did not write anti-Mormon propaganda. B.H. Roberts was a Mormon in good standing.

 

[pakeha]

Thanaks for posting up that link again, RandFan, and it was illuminating to see just how closely related the two books are.
I seem to have missed that article the first time around, since I've focused on the fraudulent claims of Smith about the BoA.

While there at that site, of course I re-read
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/book-of-abraham.html
What a shameless con that BoA is, to be sure.

 

[bruto]

Oh, no, I wasn't trying to steer the thread into discussion of that. Just wasn't sure if my eyes deceived me. Thanks. Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Of course, if one could expect ordinary perception and response one could ask simply, "Janadele, do you believe in reincarnation?" and get something resembling a yes or no response. It would then be clear to all whether or not the subject at hand is on or off topic. I will try that, just to see what happens.

 

[bruto]

Here is a specific question for Janadele, with an explanation for why it is asked:

Janadele, a subject has come up whose relevance is debatable as to the topic of LDS belief and practice, but potentially quite relevant to the understanding and practice of LDS belief which you wish us to respect. In order to help us to determine this without undue assumption or prejudice, would you be able to answer in a clear fashion the following question:

Janadele, do you believe in reincarnation? In that category I include metempsychosis and the transmigration of souls, in other words any belief that includes the idea that an entity (e.t.a. a mortal entity other than God - a person or an animal) may possess the mind or the memories of another not present.

This is a question whose other ramifications I do not consider a matter of concern. It should be possible initially to answer simply with denial or affirmation, even if an affirmation is followed by a welter of other doctrine and data by way of explanation. Doctrine and data by themselves are not an answer.

 

[Janadele]

pakeha the link you refer to in your post 8531 is not an LDS site. The "mormon handbook" refered to is not from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Many links Rand Fan has given in this thread have been to anti-Mormon sites, cleverly disguised so that the unwary could easily be unaware of their dubious motives and who is behind them.

Any genuine enquirer should seek their information from official LDS sites, and their affiliates such as Fair.

 

[Janadele]

OH yeah, she did, but not in this thread.

bruto, Slowvehicle and others... once again you falsely attribute to me that which I have not said.

 

[RandFan]

pakeha the link you refer to in your post 8531 is not an LDS site. The "mormon handbook" refered to is not from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Many links Rand Fan has given in this thread have been to anti-Mormon sites, cleverly disguised so that the unwary could easily be unaware of their dubious motives and who is behind them.

The Mormon Church A.) Has a history of being wrong. B.) Has a history of not telling the whole truth. I have been upfront with my links. I also, often, post links to FAIR and FARMS.

Any genuine enquirer should seek their information from official LDS sites, and their affiliates such as Fair.

Any genuine inquirer would seek multiple sources. As Tory Christman (former Scientologist) says, get all sides. We should all be skeptical of pro and anti-Mormon sites. There is misinformation out there. Some sites critical of Mormonism continue to propagate the Salamander Letter as genuine when it's a well known fraud.

There are people with motives to lie about the Mormon Church and there are people who are vicious and hateful toward Mormons. I am not. Nearly everyone I know and love are Mormon.

That said, can you identify anything that is wrong with the link I provided regarding B.H. Roberts?

 

[jsfisher]

In case anyone is curious, this is the post that is at the base of the current reincarnation arc.

 

[tsig]

Here is a specific question for Janadele, with an explanation for why it is asked:

Janadele, a subject has come up whose relevance is debatable as to the topic of LDS belief and practice, but potentially quite relevant to the understanding and practice of LDS belief which you wish us to respect. In order to help us to determine this without undue assumption or prejudice, would you be able to answer in a clear fashion the following question:

Janadele, do you believe in reincarnation? In that category I include metempsychosis and the transmigration of souls, in other words any belief that includes the idea that an entity (e.t.a. a mortal entity other than God - a person or an animal) may possess the mind or the memories of another not present.

This is a question whose other ramifications I do not consider a matter of concern. It should be possible initially to answer simply with denial or affirmation, even if an affirmation is followed by a welter of other doctrine and data by way of explanation. Doctrine and data by themselves are not an answer.

bruto, Slowvehicle and others... once again you falsely attribute to me that which I have not said.

Can you answer the question?

 

[Slowvehicle]

bruto, Slowvehicle and others... once again you falsely attribute to me that which I have not said.

Which bit?

Do you deny "fibbing" about the 'gaoled' pastor?

Do you deny implying the the Spencer Lake horse hoax served as evidence for the existence of horses, and horse cultures, in the pre-Colombian americas?

Do you deny copying and pasting from Liberty Alliance, without adding anything of substance? Do you accept, or repudiate the lies Liberty Alliance is disseminating?

Do you deny implying that you had a special reason to understand what the "writer" of Shakespeare's Sonnets intended?

Which of those is something you have not said?

 

[RandFan]

We should all be skeptical of pro and anti-Mormon sites.

BTW: a site that is critical of Mormonism doesn't make it an "anti-Mormon" site.

Dismissing everything that is critical of Mormonism as being the result of deception and/or vicious motives is ad hominem.