LDS

[Pup]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

As far as I know, in most US states at least, a proven father is legally required to pay child support if he has income. The law may not be enforced or enforceable in every case, but when someone's actions put a burden on society, society does consider that worthy of making a law against.

What burden do gay couples put on society?

How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

Maybe the children with two male role models could offer to share one with the children who have two female role models?

 

[bruto]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay? How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

That problem is not about sexual behavior. It is about the later abdication of responsibility, which is, I believe, addressed by laws concerning paternity and the obligation to support children, not by controlling the sexual practices of individuals.

In any case, that is certainly a very odd example to use, considering first of all that the example problem is highly unlikely to affect homosexuals, and one of the driving factors in the drive for marriage equality has been the desire of homosexual-based families to provide equal protection and options of support for their children. To use parental fleeing as an example against homosexual marriage would strike many as purposely and perversely obtuse, if one were inclined to attribute that much careful thought to the author.

As far as the "male role model" and "street gang" question, give us a break. There certainly are children who join street gangs. Given the many years now that gay couples in some areas have been raising children, if you believe that there is a correlation here, it is up to you to cite it. There are street gangs in Vermont cities. Do your homework. For Christ's sake, stop lying and pretending that the past is the future and nobody knows what will happen yesterday.

edit to add: I would also add that an example involving contraception is about as crazy a subject as it's possible to bring up if one is also arguing about the consistency of Mormon policy and the correctness and inspiration of Joseph Smith, as at least part of the current thread's subject is. It's true that Mormon policy these days is (good on them too for it) to favor and allow contraception, but it's also true that the opposite applied for many years, and former president Joseph Fielding Smith (not the original JS), is on record with the following quote early in this century, which appears to have set the tone in Mormon thought until fairly recently:

Those who attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord, and to prevent their offspring from coming into the world...are guilty of one of the most heinous crimes in the category. There is no promise of eternal salvation and exaltation for such as they...

 

[dafydd]

Here are my grandchildren, the offspring of my lesbian daughter and her partner. They both have the same (unknown) donor father. As you can see, they are both desperate street gang thugs.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Here are my grandchildren, the offspring of my lesbian daughter and her partner. They both have the same (unknown) donor father. As you can see, they are both desperate street gang thugs.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/23409526295e503e2f.jpg[/qimg]

I think I saw the younger one on dateline in a story about biker gangs, If only they had a positive male role model.

 

[Wolrab]

We are all just one obituary away from being baptized into the LDS. The Mormons are just doing what your future dead self wants by trying to control our aberrant behavior on this level of existence.
It's true.

 

[deaman]

To be honest, I don't have the time to go to all the sources, I've been there done that anyway. I have seen much of the stuff that's been on ex-Mormon sites as I've said before I have born again siblings who have brought me movies, books, pamphlets, etc. in hopes of showing me the error of my way. For what it's worth, I did quickly glance at the site and I mean, what can I say, it's typical ex-Mormon stuff.

I don't want to get into a long discussion on this but just as an example, the site says, that the missionaries won't tell you that,

Actually, that's in the investigator's manual (A.K.A. the Gospel Principles Sunday School manual) on page 279. This book is given to anyone who is taking the missionary discussions, or just asks for a copy. "Joseph Smith taught, 'It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God... He was once a man like us; ... God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did." Granted it's toward the rear of the book, but the class runs from January through December, and if one starts to learn about the church in November or December that might be one of the first things they learn.

That is actually in the missionary discussions from when I was on my mission. Third discussion Concept 8 is to talk about "God and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct persons, each with a glorified and perfected body of flesh and bones."

First discussion, concept 2, the missionary is to talk about: "Under the direction of God the Father, Jesus Christ, in his premortal spirit state, created the earth and everything in it."

As long as I stay faithful a spouse will be provided for me on the other side, same for single ladies or gents.

This is a good example of why I don't like these sites, it seems like they never took the missionary discussions or sat in an investigator's class before. There's a lot more too that I saw, but I don't have the time to go item by item. But what happens is when I see stuff like this that's pure hogwash, it makes it so I can't trust anything they say.

Anyway... that's about all I have to say on the matter. But I did want to show that I went to the site. Also, some of the things we can debate till the cows come home as to whether or not it's actual doctrine or teachings. But absolutely nothing new there.

I do have some things coming up where I'll be busy again for a while. Pup will keep me up on what's going on. I typically don't really *read* this thread anymore, I just peek over here hoping that Janadele's decided to answer my question, and from time to time manage to see my name, like here. My apologies if I miss anything important.

Also edited to add: I don't know if the discussions are still in that order. But when I served decades ago, that's the order that they were given in.

Cat Tale -

Thank you for answering. I appreciate your candor, honesty and guts.

You are a breath of fresh air, compared to some others who claim to represent your church.

I am saddened you don't have time to discuss this stuff, as you seem to be the only LDS here who will actually "discuss" anything.

You are saying that the site is wrong about what it will adviser the investigator about, right off the bat. I understand.

You are correct, I think, as I remember the "God is a man" stuff, early on, too!

To be honest, it is the following items such as:

"Multiple Versions of the First Vision" and the dates as to when they were available to the general church, and how the "real' story" is glossed over.

The "Gold Plates and who saw them.

The "various" methods of translation.

The inconsistencies with anthropology.

The American Indian"/ Lamanite connection.

The "Adam is God" statements, as well as previous statements by general authorities which are now brushed aside.

The Book of Abraham translation which has now been amended.

The "correctness" of the books and the edits still made to this day.

Thing like these are what I really want to discuss.

Might you have time do delve into these subjects?

Once again, thanks for your time.

Peace, Love, Joy and Harmony.

 

[Cat Tale]

Cat Tale - snip

If one wants to discuss the whole historical and social history of the belief in general that Indians were the lost tribe, or any of the other things, one could write a college thesis on that topic alone. Most of that kind of thing can be googled and people have actually already done incredible amounts of research. So let's just cut to the chase, it seems to me that what you're asking is if I were aware of these discrepancies and/or knew that the Church taught these things, would I leave the Church? Obviously not. As I've said, I've been through all this before with my siblings.

As I think I've said from the beginning, I'm not a literalist. It's like telling a Protestant that a world-wide flood was physically impossible, and expecting it to be new information that they were unaware of or to shake their faith. For a few, it actually might. Others might already know that a world-wide flood is impossible and agree that it's impossible. I'm like a Protestant who isn't bothered by evolution or geological facts even if they contradict what's literally written in the scriptures.

 

[Janadele]

How can anything that happens among consenting adults in the privacy of my home affect you, in any way at all?

I am confident all are aware the continual bleating of "what is done in the privacy of one's home" is but a diversionary tactic from the real and blatant issues... on which I have already commented. Such as: adoption of innocent children into a perverted against God and nature lifestyle and the effects thereof, in your face exhibitionism prevalent in so called "entertainment", in public venues, schools and so called "educational" content, discrimination and the use of an immoral legal system to intimidate and attempt to force others to comply against their will... etc, etc, etc.

 

[Robrob]

As I think I've said from the beginning, I'm not a literalist. It's like telling a Protestant that a world-wide flood was physically impossible, and expecting it to be new information that they were unaware of or to shake their faith. For a few, it actually might. Others might already know that a world-wide flood is impossible and agree that it's impossible. I'm like a Protestant who isn't bothered by evolution or geological facts even if they contradict what's literally written in the scriptures.

A perfectly rational and intelligent POV.

I am confident all are aware the continual bleating of "what is done in the privacy of one's home" is but a diversionary tactic from the real and blatant issues... on which I have already commented. Such as: adoption of innocent children into a perverted against God and nature lifestyle and the effects thereof, in your face exhibitionism prevalent in so called "entertainment", in public venues, schools and so called "educational" content, discrimination and the use of an immoral legal system to intimidate and attempt to force others to comply against their will... etc, etc, etc.

And then again...

 

[dafydd]

I am confident all are aware the continual bleating of "what is done in the privacy of one's home" is but a diversionary tactic from the real and blatant issues... on which I have already commented. Such as: adoption of innocent children into a perverted against God and nature lifestyle and the effects thereof, in your face exhibitionism prevalent in so called "entertainment", in public venues, schools and so called "educational" content, discrimination and the use of an immoral legal system to intimidate and attempt to force others to comply against their will... etc, etc, etc.

You're starting at the wrong end. Please provide proof that this god of whom you speak actually exists. Also proof that Hindu gods do not exist. Also, you are a real killjoy. ''Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone somewhere might be enjoying themselves.''

 

[kerikiwi]

... and the use of an immoral legal system to intimidate and attempt to force others to comply against their will...

Oh dear mighty god of irony....

 

[Shalamar]

I am confident all are aware the continual bleating of "what is done in the privacy of one's home" is but a diversionary tactic from the real and blatant issues... on which I have already commented. Such as: adoption of innocent children into a perverted against God and nature lifestyle and the effects thereof, in your face exhibitionism prevalent in so called "entertainment", in public venues, schools and so called "educational" content, discrimination and the use of an immoral legal system to intimidate and attempt to force others to comply against their will... etc, etc, etc.

I don't like your values of hate. I think it should be banned, since it is in opposition to my values.

You are a hateful person, Janadele.

It is a good thing that you are utterly wrong on everything. And so is your hateful, vile, satan inspired church.

 

[Janadele]

 

[RoboTimbo]

I don't mind you spewing hatred and mindless proselytizing and cowardly running away from answering the difficult questions. I just think you should be taxed on it. When you spread your hatred in the name of your religion and make them appear to be a an idiotic and bigoted hate group, they should lose their tax exempt status.

My religion demands it. I hope you're ok with me imposing my religious views on everyone outside of my religion.

 

[Shalamar]

Such a thoughtful response.

If you wish to impose your values on others who do not follow them, would you accept having others values imposed on you?

 

[Slowvehicle]

I am confident all are aware the continual bleating of "what is done in the privacy of one's home" is but a diversionary tactic from the real and blatant issues... on which I have already commented. Such as: adoption of innocent children into a perverted against God and nature lifestyle and the effects thereof, in your face exhibitionism prevalent in so called "entertainment", in public venues, schools and so called "educational" content, discrimination and the use of an immoral legal system to intimidate and attempt to force others to comply against their will... etc, etc, etc.

No ma'am, I an aware that your hatred, abhorrence, disgust, and bigotry, concealed behind your pretense that 'god' wants everybody to follow the "rules" invented by mormons for mormons is, in fact, the primary engine that powers your arguments...compounded by the fact that you are willing to tell lies, distort history, avoid questions, and discard the legal laws and statutes of the United States of America in pursuit of those arguments, with the goal of imposing your will, even your opinions of morality, upon everyone (especially, it seems, upon others, as you do not seem to think that, for instance, the strictures against false witness apply to you).

Perhaps if you would ever address (instead of sidestepping) an issue, or if you would explain in your own words why you think mormon rules (written, as they state on the very document you linked to but evidently did not read, for mormons) should be applied to non-mormons, you would not be faced with my continued presentation of questions you have not yet answered.

skyrider claims that your mormon rules should apply among the consenting adults in my demesne to avoid fathers abandoning pregnant women and consigning their children to grow up as welfare-dependent gang memberrs--palpably foolish, as has been explained above; further made laughable by the testicular mumps I suffered through as a child in Ecuador.

Did a practitioners of the "lifestyle" it pleases you to call "disgusting and abhorrent" try to adopt you, or to adopt your children?
Can you demonstrate evidence of a single child "affected" by being brought up in a same-gender household? Or is this like your urban legend of the "gaoled" pastor?

Not to mention, your ranting about "against 'god' and nature" demonstrates no more than your ignorance of nature and your devotion to the superstition of 'god'. Further, it is much more "peverted" to try to enforce submission from a child by resorting to the threats of what 'god' will do to her if she does not "let 'god' save her" from what 'god' will do to her if she does not let 'god' "save" her, than anything that happens between consenting adults in the privacy of my demesne.

Who is making you partake of "entertainment" you find distasteful? Has your television no "off" switch? Has your internet no filters? Has your neck no muscles with which to avert your face; have your eyes no lids to control what you regard? There is no television on my grounds (not the least of which reason being the contradictory and superstitious sales pitches of multiple sects--yours included). The last movie my partner and I watched in public was Rango (a foetid, seething sink of immoral and unethical behaviour, if there ever was one--curse those water-thieving developers!).

I confess, I act in community theatres. My last rôle was Burl Sanders in a season of command performances of Smoke on the Water, and A Sanders Family Christmas. Talk about 'god'less propaganda! The audiences demonstrated their righteous ire by buying tickets for enough performances to finance three years' worth of keeping the theatre open. (I moved to be with my partner as my partner finished a Masters' in Painting and Drawing before I could reprise Caspar in Amahl and the Night Visitors.)

I, too, am sickened by discrimination and the immoral use of a legal system (that is constitutionally mandated to isolate church from state) to deny citizens basic civil rights; gross carriages of misjustice where sectarian groups pretend that their own particular 'god'-rules should be enforced upon all, even members of sects with different particular 'god'-rules--and actually try to incorporate sectarian "rules" into the civil law. Fortunately, with diligence and vigilance, citizens can rid the law of such perversions--Vermont is a good example.

I don't suppose you have evidence of anyone being "forced" to "comply" with, or participate in, the lifestyle it pleases you to call "abhorrent and disgusting", do you? If you present such, do remember that "not being allowed to discriminate against" is not the same as being "forced" to "comply"--unless you mean "forced to comply with the legal laws of the United States of America". OTH, you appear to have no problem with forcing others, even non-mormons, to comply with mormons' rules for mormons...

Do also remember the debacle of the little fibs you told about the "gaoled" preacher...

I do agree that it is unfortunate to see special-interest groups try to hijack public education. Fortunately, even there bright lights shine out--did you read that the State Board of Education in Texas rejected the demands of creationists to include "intelligent Design" (thinly disguised xianist creationism) in Texas Science textbooks? I was so very proud of the board for protecting our children.

So, no, I am not the one indulging in "diversionary tactics". Why not just answer my questions?

Unless you'd rather talk about the manifestly unskilled fictions of the BoM, or the outright fraud of the BoA...

 

[halleyscomet]

Yes, the title of this thread is LDS, and as the instigator of this thread it is not I who am wrong, nor have I any interest nor intention of discussing the cult of Anti-Mormonism which has hyjacked this thread.

How adorable. You think that by starting the thread you get to dictate where the discussion goes or what the valid topics are.

If you want that kind of power over a thread start your own web site and act as a moderator. If you want to post here suck it up and deal dearie.

 

[RandFan]

I am confident all are aware the continual bleating of "what is done in the privacy of one's home" ....

How do you think polygamist Mormons felt when they fled the U.S. to avoid criminal prosecution?

If it's not harming anyone it's none of your business. End of story.

 

[Craig4]

Spend a lot if time picking out the emoticons did you?

My, what a spirited and thoughtful defense you're putting up for the lying, abortionist using scum and fraud that is the founder of your church. Is this all you have to protect the legacy of the vile filth known as Joesph Smith and Bring em Young?

 

[Agatha]

That's a lovely picture of your grandchildren, dafydd. What a pair of cuties! Congratulations to you and your daughter.

I am confident all are aware the continual bleating of "what is done in the privacy of one's home" is but a diversionary tactic from the real and blatant issues... on which I have already commented.

Oh, yes, you've commented. Your comments have been exactly like the comments of those who feared racial equality, and exactly as ridiculous.

Such as: adoption of innocent children into a perverted against God

Some evidence for this intolerant God of yours would be useful. Got any?

and nature

Would that be the same nature where many animals exhibit homosexual relationships? Now, if this God of yours created mankind and animals, then He must have created some of them to be homosexual. Maybe you don't have the direct line to your God that you thought you had. Perhaps your God is great deal more loving and tolerant than you, or perhaps your God is just a figment of your imagination.

lifestyle

Lol, you are adorable sometimes. What do you imagine the difference in 'lifestyle' is between a heterosexual couple adopting a child who desperately needs a loving home, and a homosexual couple adopting a child who desperately needs a loving home? In both cases the child gets fed, housed, loved, nurtured, educated and ends up a functional member of society. In neither case do they witness what their parents do in bed.

and the effects thereof

What effects would they be? Abused and neglected children (abused and/or neglected, mind you, by their heterosexual birth parents) are found loving homes where they can be safe and happy. Most people would consider that a good thing.

in your face exhibitionism prevalent in so called "entertainment",

Does your TV not have an 'off' switch, or a way of changing the channel? You are not forced to watch videos of the Village people singing YMCA, you know. Unless you particularly enjoy that music, in which case, my commiserations.

in public venues, schools and so called "educational" content,

I guess I'm wasting my time asking you for any evidence.

discrimination

The only people fostering discrimination are the one who seek to restrict the rights of consenting adults to love and to marry whom they choose.

and the use of an immoral legal system

Immoral? You live in a democracy, no? Use your vote to change things, but if you are in the minority either suck it up or move to a less free jurisdiction. I hear Somalia is nice at this time of year.

to intimidate and attempt to force others to comply against their will... etc, etc, etc.

Somebody is trying to force you to enter into a gay marriage? But this must be stopped! Just say no, don't let yourself be dragged down the aisle by those predatory lesbians. Oh, that's not happening? Well then, nobody is forcing you to 'comply' with anything.

Seriously, live and let live, Janadele. Consenting adults - whether they are black, white, gay, straight, disabled or healthy - can do what they like and it simply will not affect you unless you let them. Mind your own business, and let other people mind theirs.