LDS

[skyrider44]

. . . Again I ask the question you have never answered: How can anything that happens among consenting adults in the privacy of my home affect you, in any way at all?

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay? How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

 

[deaman]

Cat Tale -

Have you read through the site RandFan posted some posts back?

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

What are your thoughts on the items presented?

Thank you.

 

[RandFan]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay? How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

Which is why we support proven and effective birth control, morning after pill, abortion pill and abortion. You cannot legislate behavior.

BTW: Some married consenting adults (actually many) who are also poor get pregnant and live on welfare. Some married couples neglect and abuse their children and they become wards of the state and some grow up to be criminals.

What is the logical conclusion to your argument? It sounds fallacious. Education and prevention are proven solutions to social health problems. Moralizing, judging, stigma, and legislating behavior, etc., don't seem to be much good for anything.

Oh, and there are people who don't practice any birth control and have huge families, often they are not able to support them. Some of us think they should not have such big families, should we legislate family size or do you think we should let consenting adults make decisions for themselves?

19 Kids & Counting's the Duggars

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay? How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

I happen to know several single mothers doing just fine, I know what a weird concept, Empowered women being able to make it on their own without a strapping burly man to open their jam jars.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay? How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

1. Nice straw man, Janadele. The question was not what "some" people "might" do.

2. Oddly enough, the "lifestyle" Janadele finds "disgusting and abhorrent", and sees fit to enforce JCJCLDS "rules" upon non-members about, is guaranteed not to have the problems of unwanted pregnancies. You took high school biology, right?

3. If this is your motivation, Janadele, perhaps you could explain why it is only the"lifestyle" you find "disgusting and abhorent" (the one that cannot physically result in the consequence you say you fear) against which you rail; and not, as I asked before, the unhealthful problems of tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks?

 

[RandFan]

Hitchens on Mormons Part 1 of 2

 

[Slowvehicle]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay? How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

(With Dueling Straw Men played on a pipe organ and an electric guitar in the background)

Some mormon xianists express the love and caring concern mandated by their sect by turning their unacceptable, abhorrent and disgusting children out into the streets. Is it your position that those homeless, rejected children, prey for every predator out there, do not affect "in any way" the taxes I pay for police to round them up and jail them (for their own good, of course)? How about the children who no longer have access to a loving sect, and grow up unchurched; even realizing that they are in fact, atheists, and better off for it?

(Dueling Straw Men reaches the coda.)

 

[kerikiwi]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay? How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

And this relates to gay sex how exactly?
If anything it means you should be supporting gay marriage, since there are no problems with lack of contraception

 

[Craig4]

As I have previously mentioned many times. This thread is LDS. Anti Mormon propaganda is not the subject of this thread, and has nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has no relation to the topic of this thread, and if the Anti Mormons had any scruples or honesty at all they would start their own thread... a good title would be "The Cult of Anti-Mormonism."

How is pointing out the errors and frauds in the BoM, BoA and the LDS Church not related to a discussion about the LDS church? Sorry, if you wanted a thread where you could just tell everyone how great the LDS church was and not get called out on the fraud, you came to the wrong shop.

 

[Robrob]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception.

And some also smoke in bed. Your point?

Maybe you mean you are in favor of sex ed and the open distribution of condoms and birth control - you know, to make sure they practice contraception?

It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear.

Seriously, what percentage would that be or are you just pulling it out of your imaginary place? It's also not that unusual for them to go get married, etc...

Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

The same people who support the widows, orphans, divorced, etc...

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay?

No but thanks for asking.

How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

How about them?

 

[Craig4]

Yes, the title of this thread is LDS, and as the instigator of this thread it is not I who am wrong, nor have I any interest nor intention of discussing the cult of Anti-Mormonism which has hyjacked this thread.

Then show us evidence of Pre-Colombian cultures with steel, chariots, horses and cultivated barley. You could even show us cultures with the life ways of people with those things. And yes, you are wrong; pointing out the fraud in the BoM and your other texts is related to the topic of the thread. It's not our fault you came ill prepared.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Then show us evidence of Pre-Colombian cultures with steel, chariots, horses and cultivated barley. You could even show us cultures with the life ways of people with those things. And yes, you are wrong; pointing out the fraud in the BoM and your other texts is related to the topic of the thread. It's not our fault you came ill prepared.

IMO; She came here to simply proselytize and is most likely never had anyone question her faith let alone ever ask questions of her own faith.

 

[RandFan]

IMO; She came here to simply proselytize and is most likely never had anyone question her faith let alone ever ask questions of her own faith.

Well, aparantly she's all over the internet and has even, IIRC, been banned already from at least one forum.

 

[AdMan]

Yes, the title of this thread is LDS, and as the instigator of this thread it is not I who am wrong, nor have I any interest nor intention of discussing the cult of Anti-Mormonism which has hyjacked this thread.

Yes, the title of this thread, and its subject, is LDS. That means critical discussion of LDS BS and its bigoted beliefs is on-topic, whether you like it or not. In this forum, you don't get to dictate discussion.

If you don't like it, you are free to leave.

 

[AdMan]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Yes, all those gay couples we've been talking about that the LDS discriminates against--who's to take care of all their poor babies?!

 

[Cat Tale]

Cat Tale -

Have you read through the site RandFan posted some posts back?

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

What are your thoughts on the items presented?

Thank you.

To be honest, I don't have the time to go to all the sources, I've been there done that anyway. I have seen much of the stuff that's been on ex-Mormon sites as I've said before I have born again siblings who have brought me movies, books, pamphlets, etc. in hopes of showing me the error of my way. For what it's worth, I did quickly glance at the site and I mean, what can I say, it's typical ex-Mormon stuff.

I don't want to get into a long discussion on this but just as an example, the site says, that the missionaries won't tell you that,

"God was once a man like us."

Actually, that's in the investigator's manual (A.K.A. the Gospel Principles Sunday School manual) on page 279. This book is given to anyone who is taking the missionary discussions, or just asks for a copy. "Joseph Smith taught, 'It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God... He was once a man like us; ... God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did." Granted it's toward the rear of the book, but the class runs from January through December, and if one starts to learn about the church in November or December that might be one of the first things they learn.

"God has a body of flesh and bones."

That is actually in the missionary discussions from when I was on my mission. Third discussion Concept 8 is to talk about "God and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct persons, each with a glorified and perfected body of flesh and bones."

The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim").

First discussion, concept 2, the missionary is to talk about: "Under the direction of God the Father, Jesus Christ, in his premortal spirit state, created the earth and everything in it."

If your spouse is not Mormon, or if you are not married, you cannot enter the highest degree of heaven

As long as I stay faithful a spouse will be provided for me on the other side, same for single ladies or gents.

This is a good example of why I don't like these sites, it seems like they never took the missionary discussions or sat in an investigator's class before. There's a lot more too that I saw, but I don't have the time to go item by item. But what happens is when I see stuff like this that's pure hogwash, it makes it so I can't trust anything they say.

Anyway... that's about all I have to say on the matter. But I did want to show that I went to the site. Also, some of the things we can debate till the cows come home as to whether or not it's actual doctrine or teachings. But absolutely nothing new there.

I do have some things coming up where I'll be busy again for a while. Pup will keep me up on what's going on. I typically don't really *read* this thread anymore, I just peek over here hoping that Janadele's decided to answer my question, and from time to time manage to see my name, like here. My apologies if I miss anything important.

Also edited to add: I don't know if the discussions are still in that order. But when I served decades ago, that's the order that they were given in.

 

[desertgal]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Are you suggesting this is a problem among homosexual couples? That is the topic currently under discussion.

Please explain how what occurs in the privacy of the bedrooms of homosexual couples has any direct effect on your life at all.

Your strawman argument aside, please explain how the Mormon church is allowed to impose their rules on non-members. That is the question on the table. Has been repeatedly. Can you answer it without introducing strawmen?

 

[dafydd]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

You have an extremely odd view of life.

 

[abaddon]

Are you suggesting this is a problem among homosexual couples? That is the topic currently under discussion.

Please explain how what occurs in the privacy of the bedrooms of homosexual couples has any direct effect on your life at all.

Your strawman argument aside, please explain how the Mormon church is allowed to impose their rules on non-members. That is the question on the table. Has been repeatedly. Can you answer it without introducing strawmen?

The question bears repeating.

Janadele apparently does not care, assuming her belief is correct and that is the end of all discussion.

Skyrider44 seems to be deploying any and all means to avoid the question for reasons unknown.

Cat Tale is quite happy to discuss any aspect of LDS in a rational way.

Pretty sure that if I were LDS, I would have no difficulty picking which I would want to represent my faith.

Bravo, Cat Tale.

 

[Empress]

Some unmarried consenting adults, in the privacy of their homes (or elsewhere), fail to pactice contraception. It is not unusual for the males, on learning that the females are pregnant, to disappear. Who then do you suppose supports the unwed mothers and their children?

Is it your position that welfare funding, amounting to billions and billions of dollars annually, doesn't affect in "any way at all" the taxes you pay? How about the children who grow up without a male role model and find one in street gangs?

What an utterly moronic comment, esp since the subject under consideration is your church's stance on homosexuality and as a result pregnancy oopsies ten to be just a tad rare.

But to discuss your ridiculous attempt at derail. My mother joined your church in her twenties. She raised eight children, seven of whom joined your church when they turned 18. She was always a Mormon in good standing, although since she was married to a Catholic, so she didn't get her endowments until after my father died.

She was also a woman who beat her children, allowed no one their own opinion on anything if it differed from hers, and rarely had a good word to say about any one of us kids. Yet to the good bishop of the church when I was growing up, she was a saint. Why didn't your god let him know that while he was standing there telling me how lucky I was to have such a godly mother, my back was covered with welts because she'd beat me with a wood hanger until it broke? Shouldn't the bishop, called by your god, and sustained by the members, have known that she was physically, emotionally, and mentally abusing her children? Why didn't your god do something?

My mother, who I love dearly and I take care of in her old age, did a great deal to ruin the lives of seven innocent children. All eight ended up with massive self-esteem problems and interpersonal relationship issues. Yet she was, and is, a highly-respected member of your church and holds a temple recommend.

Contrast that with a gay couple who could be the salt of the earth and follow every tenet of your church, except that they engage in homosexual activity in the privacy of their own homes.

One, a child abuser, is a-ok by church standards. The other is practicing abomination, though they hurt no one. I know which of the two I consider less damaging to society.