Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Matthew Best]

As an aside from all this, I thought some here might be interested to see the discussion about Madeleine McCann where one poster has pointed out that the fact that the suspected perpetrators (the parents) have kept on insisting on their innocence for several years despite constant vilification in the press and online speaks volumes about heir innocence. He goes on a few posts later to complain about how McCann Conspiracy Theorists ignore anything substantive and rely on debunked "DNA" evidence.

You may be interested to see who this eminently sensible poster is.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9565364&postcount=525

 

[katy_did]

What we can do with the evidence in this case alone is look at how drops of blood of varying size dry. Small drops of undiluted blood such as the ones under the desk and under the bed dry as a uniform deep red spot. But there is a class of spots which I call diluted blood that form a darker ring at the periphery. This is caused by the blood flowing to the edge where the curvature of the spot gives it a much higher ratio of surface area to volume and therefore a higher evaporation rate. The undiluted blood doesn't flow once the water content drops to where the blood cells are touching and are no longer suspended in solution.

The spot in the middle of the band gives the same result of a dark ring at the periphery of the spot.

Could you link to some examples? I would say that 'neat' blood tends to dry with a dark ring around the edge as well; for example, in this picture the larger spot on the duvet is darker particularly along the bottom edge than it is in the middle (far more noticeably so, in fact, than the spot on the bra).

If blood is mostly water, then it should behave at least to some extent in the way you describe, regardless of whether it's diluted or not. When you think about it, adding equal amounts of water to blood would only increase the water content from 80% to 90%, or from 90% to 95% depending on which figure you go with (erm, if my math is right; it's late), so its make-up doesn't change all that much.

Could be. But I believe you will find in this thread that I identified the location where the bra was grasped in order to unravel it the way it did before I knew that there was a DNA profile at that spot. The DNA match is a bonus.

I'm not quite sure we're talking about the same bloodstain in that case. The one I thought you meant is quite near the clasp, in the middle of the band, which isn't an obvious place to grasp the bra for it to unravel as it did. In removing the bra, I think Guede could've grasped the straps (which would explain why both of them broke) or anywhere along the right side of the band. If the latter, then more likely to the right side of where the strap separated from the band, than closer to the clasp where the spot is.

But we should probably clarify that we're talking about the same mark first...

I do still hold the belief that it was the band slipping through Rudy's hand that gave him the cut that didn't bleed as opposed to the knife. I am not however going to try the experiment to find out unless I find a gullible suitable volunteer.

Possibly. Only if he was holding the straps though; the band is too broad to cause those types of cuts, I think, and the material probably too soft.

 

[Machiavelli]

That sounds like Francesco Maresca talking. If fact, it is essentially what Maresca did say when he came into this case and took a last minute walkthrough of the cottage. Had he had a chance to review the case file first? Or, had he only assessed the financial profiles of the defendants and realized immediately that if he was going to get paid on this case he was going to need defendants other than Rudy Guede found guilty.
(...)

Not time enough to read the snipped point list.

Just to say this: at least, I think you can realize that Maresca will never be paid further money, beyond what he is already paid by the Kercher. Because - you may well be aware of it - it is not realistic to expect Knox or Sollecito would ever pay any damage reward.
Knox ownes nothing in Italy; if Sollecito still ownes something, this would be transferred to a trust located at the Cayman Islands by the time of his conviction.
The two defendants will never pay.
It's completely unrealistic to expect otherwise.
So Maresca would be doing that for nothing, if that was his aim.
Obviously, a perspective that the defendants could pay cannot be what motivates him.

 

[acbytesla]

Not time enough to read the snipped point list.

Just to say this: at least, I think you can realize that Maresca will never be paid further money, beyond what he is already paid by the Kercher. Because - you may well be aware of it - it is not realistic to expect Knox or Sollecito would ever pay any damage reward.
Knox ownes nothing in Italy; if Sollecito still ownes something, this would be transferred to a trust located at the Cayman Islands by the time of his conviction.
The two defendants will never pay.
It's completely unrealistic to expect otherwise.
So Maresca would be doing that for nothing, if that was his aim.
Obviously, a perspective that the defendants could pay cannot be what motivates him.

Maresca is doing it for the publicity. It's advertising for his firm. 6 years of his name being in the media. Sure, he'll say he is doing it for other reasons, but the value of the publicity is enormous.

 

[christianahannah]

Not time enough to read the snipped point list.

Just to say this: at least, I think you can realize that Maresca will never be paid further money, beyond what he is already paid by the Kercher. Because - you may well be aware of it - it is not realistic to expect Knox or Sollecito would ever pay any damage reward.
Knox ownes nothing in Italy; if Sollecito still ownes something, this would be transferred to a trust located at the Cayman Islands by the time of his conviction.
The two defendants will never pay.
It's completely unrealistic to expect otherwise.
So Maresca would be doing that for nothing, if that was his aim.
Obviously, a perspective that the defendants could pay cannot be what motivates him.

I have not thought of this before what you write of Maresca. Interesting.

What persuades me of the good character of Mignini is that he is an Italian prosecutor who is speaking (and prosecuting a case) on behalf of a young English woman who can no longer speak for herself. I think when he walked into her room and saw her murdered, and found out she was away from her family and country he was motivated to bring about justice on her behalf. His thoughts were of and about Meredith (as are the thoughts of many prosecutors who speak on behalf of victims and bring those who they feel are responsible to trial).

 

[Bill Williams]

I have not thought of this before what you write of Maresca. Interesting.

What persuades me of the good character of Mignini is that he is an Italian prosecutor who is speaking (and prosecuting a case) on behalf of a young English woman who can no longer speak for herself. I think when he walked into her room and saw her murdered, and found out she was away from her family and country he was motivated to bring about justice on her behalf. His thoughts were of and about Meredith (as are the thoughts of many prosecutors who speak on behalf of victims and bring those who they feel are responsible to trial).

This is all well and good until that same man attempts to frame innocents. Prosecutors need to be dispassionate or risk of abuse is huge.

 

[Machiavelli]

Maresca is doing it for the publicity. It's advertising for his firm. 6 years of his name being in the media. Sure, he'll say he is doing it for other reasons, but the value of the publicity is enormous.

But the Kercher family has three lawyers. Francesco Maresca is not hired by the whole family, he works for Meredith's parents; but Vieri Fabiani is the legal representative hired by brother and relatives, and Serena Perna is the legal representative of Stepanie.

You only hear about Maresca, and you happen to think he represents all the Kerchers. In fact, he only gets the publicity, because he is the one who speaks. Vieri Fabiani is a more important lawyer than Maresca: however, he and Serena Perna give up all personal publicity, yes they decide to work in team since they cooperate as a lawfirma by there is no lawfirma as a brand, the three have their personal clients and they let Maresca get all the personal publicity.

 

[acbytesla]

But the Kercher family has three lawyers. Francesco Maresca is not hired by the whole family, he works for Meredith's parents; but Vieri Fabiani is the legal representative hired by brother and relatives, and Serena Perna is the legal representative of Stepanie.

You only hear about Maresca, and you happen to think he represents all the Kerchers. In fact, he only gets the publicity, because he is the one who speaks. Vieri Fabiani is a more important lawyer than Maresca: however, he and Serena Perna give up all personal publicity, yes they decide to work in team since they cooperate as a lawfirma by there is no lawfirma as a brand, the three have their personal clients and they let Maresca get all the personal publicity.

You really have to wonder why they would need all this legal counsel. While I can imagine that John Kercher might require legal advice for his book and an Italian lawyer to help with translating both the Italian language and legalese into understandable English, I see little reason beyond that. Especially when as you say, that there is little chance to collect a judgement.

 

[xinonix]

I have read that some people think the rock was too heavy to be thrown through the window.
Rudy Guede was a semi-professional basketball player. He was very good at throwing a ball into a basket, perhaps he could use his skills and well developed muscles to throw a rock with both hands through the window.
Maybe if you or I were doing this we would think that this rock was too heavy and we would look for a smaller rock, but for Rudy it would not be much of a challenge. He would not worry about the rock falling on to his head.
The rock is evidence that suggests Rudy threw it and it would be too heavy for Amanda.

 

[acbytesla]

I have read that some people think the rock was too heavy to be thrown through the window.
Rudy Guede was a semi-professional basketball player. He was very good at throwing a ball into a basket, perhaps he could use his skills and well developed muscles to throw a rock with both hands through the window.
Maybe if you or I were doing this we would think that this rock was too heavy and we would look for a smaller rock, but for Rudy it would not be much of a challenge. He would not worry about the rock falling on to his head.
The rock is evidence that suggests Rudy threw it and it would be too heavy for Amanda.

The rock was not too heavy for Rudy from down below or from the car park. Katy thinks she wouldn't have been able to throw it through the window from below. But it would have been easy for just about everyone from the car park.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I have read that some people think the rock was too heavy to be thrown through the window.
Rudy Guede was a semi-professional basketball player. He was very good at throwing a ball into a basket, perhaps he could use his skills and well developed muscles to throw a rock with both hands through the window.
Maybe if you or I were doing this we would think that this rock was too heavy and we would look for a smaller rock, but for Rudy it would not be much of a challenge. He would not worry about the rock falling on to his head.
The rock is evidence that suggests Rudy threw it and it would be too heavy for Amanda.

Almost anyone over the age of 10 could heave that particular rock from the retaining wall through the window.

People make way more of this than it warrants. I was at that site. It would have been trivial to break that window and climb through it. The risk would be that someone might see you do it. But, at night, in that somewhat desolate spot, chances are no one would.

 

[Dan O.]

Could you link to some examples? I would say that 'neat' blood tends to dry with a dark ring around the edge as well; for example, in this picture the larger spot on the duvet is darker particularly along the bottom edge than it is in the middle (far more noticeably so, in fact, than the spot on the bra).

A better example would be one where we are sure of the source of the blood. We know that a wet towel was brought into the room. It could have been placed on the duvet

If blood is mostly water, then it should behave at least to some extent in the way you describe, regardless of whether it's diluted or not. When you think about it, adding equal amounts of water to blood would only increase the water content from 80% to 90%, or from 90% to 95% depending on which figure you go with (erm, if my math is right; it's late), so its make-up doesn't change all that much.

It depends on how much of that water is inside the blood cells.

I'm not quite sure we're talking about the same bloodstain in that case. The one I thought you meant is quite near the clasp, in the middle of the band, which isn't an obvious place to grasp the bra for it to unravel as it did. In removing the bra, I think Guede could've grasped the straps (which would explain why both of them broke) or anywhere along the right side of the band. If the latter, then more likely to the right side of where the strap separated from the band, than closer to the clasp where the spot is.

But we should probably clarify that we're talking about the same mark first...

Here is a model wearing a bra that is superficially similar to the one that Meredith was wearing:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130610234749/corset/images/8/83/LifestyleWhiteBack.jpg

Notice how the top strap attaches to the top of the band all the way back to the clasp. The spot in question would be in the middle of the band almost directly below the top point where the strap attaches.

Possibly. Only if he was holding the straps though; the band is too broad to cause those types of cuts, I think, and the material probably too soft.

It's not the wide band that cuts but the edge of the band material that used to be covered where the strap was sewn to it being suddenly pulled out of his hand when the clasp breaks away.

 

[RandyN]

I have read that some people think the rock was too heavy to be thrown through the window.
Rudy Guede was a semi-professional basketball player. He was very good at throwing a ball into a basket, perhaps he could use his skills and well developed muscles to throw a rock with both hands through the window.
Maybe if you or I were doing this we would think that this rock was too heavy and we would look for a smaller rock, but for Rudy it would not be much of a challenge. He would not worry about the rock falling on to his head.
The rock is evidence that suggests Rudy threw it and it would be too heavy for Amanda.

Yes I have heard this ridiculous claim too. This toss was an easy lob of about 7 feet straight across and level with the window. I think anyone but the weakest of persons could have made this toss. For Guede he could probably do this with his eyes closed. The rock is not all that large. No falling on the head because the toss is made from the wall that forms the parking lot edge. He is level and not beneath the window.

BTW ...welcome to the discussion.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Another thing I think is important is the presence of three towels completely soaked in blood in the murder's room.<snip>

Ah, now I get it. Three towels = three perpetrators. You're right, that is obvious, if your definition of obvious is "simple-minded."

How exactly did that work, though? Did Rudy go into the bathroom and bring back one towel for each perp? Or did the invitation say, "BYOT?"

Actually, all judges found Mignini was right, and found the defence claims were unfounded.
Moreover, itself the procedure code and jurisprudence - as I explaned already - says Mignini was right.

This is kind of like saying George W. Bush's cabinet backed him up on the WMDs in Iraq.

From my point of view, you are a group of people who make a huge number of assertions which are either wacky, unfounded, openly contradicted by reality and false. And none of you actually demonstrates or proves any of these. And you that I do not attempt to prove the claims I make? But do you attempt to prove yours?

Six threads over almost four years says we do.

 

[Mary_H]

As an aside from all this, I thought some here might be interested to see the discussion about Madeleine McCann where one poster has pointed out that the fact that the suspected perpetrators (the parents) have kept on insisting on their innocence for several years despite constant vilification in the press and online speaks volumes about heir innocence. He goes on a few posts later to complain about how McCann Conspiracy Theorists ignore anything substantive and rely on debunked "DNA" evidence.

You may be interested to see who this eminently sensible poster is.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9565364&postcount=525

O...M...G. That is a real collector's item, Matthew.

 

[Mary_H]

I have not thought of this before what you write of Maresca. Interesting.

What persuades me of the good character of Mignini is that he is an Italian prosecutor who is speaking (and prosecuting a case) on behalf of a young English woman who can no longer speak for herself. I think when he walked into her room and saw her murdered, and found out she was away from her family and country he was motivated to bring about justice on her behalf. His thoughts were of and about Meredith (as are the thoughts of many prosecutors who speak on behalf of victims and bring those who they feel are responsible to trial).

That's their job. Are you open to the possibility that among the numbers of prosecutors on Earth who speak on behalf of victims who can no longer speak for themselves, there may be a minority who are not of good character?

 

[Dan O.]

I have not thought of this before what you write of Maresca. Interesting.

What persuades me of the good character of Mignini is that he is an Italian prosecutor who is speaking (and prosecuting a case) on behalf of a young English woman who can no longer speak for herself. I think when he walked into her room and saw her murdered, and found out she was away from her family and country he was motivated to bring about justice on her behalf. His thoughts were of and about Meredith (as are the thoughts of many prosecutors who speak on behalf of victims and bring those who they feel are responsible to trial).

I found it interesting that Mignini lived only 10 minutes walking distance from the cottage. Was this the first time Mignini visited her room?

 

[RandyN]

Just checked and you're right. From memory I think the state of the inner shutters was similar, in that she said she'd pulled them towards the window but hadn't actually fastened them closed.

This would be an impossible task. The inner shutters attach on the outer side of the window. They would latch in the center. To close them would require someone pushing them towards the window. Pulling them would open them.
I suspect due to the evidence that we can clearly see that these shutters may have been closed or partly so but were not latched. (especially true for the inner shutter nearest the wardrobe).

The rock strike dent on the inner shutter is near the right bottom facing from outside and looking in. This fits perfectly everything we know about the rock and the window and also the final resting place for the rock. The rock unquestionably was thrown from outside. Not one shred of evidence points to anything but this. In fact glass embedded into this inner shutter if studied closely could help determine if the rock came from below or the easier toss from the parking lot.

I personally feel, do to the glass dispersal pattern that the toss was from the parking lot wall. Not actually relevant to anything IMHO.

 

[Mary_H]

I found it interesting that Mignini lived only 10 minutes walking distance from the cottage. Was this the first time Mignini visited her room?

Huh?

 

[RandyN]

Charges that he did not theorize.

Now, as for Trono e Altare, I don't know it; anyway I have no proof that Mignini had any link to it. There is only Spezi's claim. I'm rather sure Mignini has no contact with them in the present times.
I knew instead that for a while he had contacts with the group Alleanza Cattolica, which is a group that I happen to know. It can be defined as a Catholic fundamentalist assocation (their views are not different from those shared by many US Republican congressmen). Basically their activity consists in having an ideological journal.
I knew that Mignini had contacts with the group years ago and he wrote one article that was published in the journal; since I was curious, I searhced read Mignini's short essay. I found the article had nothing actually religious, nor ideological, nor extremist. It was an essay of local history. I discovered that Mignini's hobby is local historiography.

I hold the views of association Alleanza Cattolica as politically unacceptable or anyway wrong and incompatible with mine.
However, what I see is how these topics are totally pointless. We are not interested in Mignini's political views. I don't share political nor philosopical, ideological views with millions of people. To me, the fact that a person attends Alleanza Cattolica is something that does not sound 'good' about the person because I'm not sympathetic with that association.
But other people may not be sympathetic with other groups and parties.
It is also objectively very easy to attack someone because he overtly attends or attended unpopular groups or has unpopular political views.
But this does not actually have any logical implication.

Moreover, it is pointless if you consider that Knox was prosecuted by Manuela Comodi who is a leftist, the president of the local syndacate of magistrates and close to the Democratic party. Judge Paolo Micheli attends a Communist Party. Giulia Bongiorno was the member of a conservative group leaded by a former neo-fascist, while instead Pratillo Hellmann is a right-winger and supporter of Berlusconi. Dalla Vedova's brother is a parlamentarian in a very moderate centre party, but was a former comrade of Bongiorno.
All these lables are misleading and superficial.
Just if you walk trough Perugia, you would see that Mignini is highly popular. Very much trusted and respected, and regarded as very honest.
This, is not because Perugians are Catholic, nor monarchists. In fact, most Perugins are not Catholics (and nobody is a monarchist).

Let me phrase this correctly.

If you walk trough Perugia you will see that it appears Mignini is highly popular. The people defer to the man who routinely files charges against innocent citizens. Proof of this is the extremely high and ridiculous number of sub-related cases filed by Mignini in the Kercher murder...particularly the part where he is trying to prosecute two innocent persons.

Don't you understand? They have to bow down to this fat idiot. He will abuse his office and create a legal nightmare for anyone trying to even ask a question with which he has a problem. Not a religious man. A devil hiding in a religious haze.

Count up the cases against lawyers, reporters, newspapers, defendants, defendants parents, bloggers like Frank, book authors. Mignini has made himself into a joke just as he has made your judicial system into a joke. Admittedly he has had lots of help with the latter.