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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Yeah, I'm not too sure either if a lesser charge is even possible, as Vogt suggests it is. Maybe if they decided Amanda was in the kitchen and too scared to intervene, that could be manslaughter? But from what I've heard that would also be considered murder, albeit maybe with a lower sentence.

On the other hand, if they decide that Amanda and Raffaele arrived too late to do anything, Guede fled, and they tried to cover it up, then I suppose they could convict for the staging but say there was too little evidence they were in the room to support a murder conviction. That seems more likely to me than any sort of lesser charge. It would even be a sort of compromise on the bra clasp evidence: Raffaele's DNA is there because he was in the room immediately afterwards, but it only arrived on the clasp itself because it was left on the floor for 46 days...

Judge Hellmann's judge/layjudge panel already did this in 2011. The convicted of calunnia and the ISC upheld it. But in 2011 it was a way of splitting the difference - trying to save face for the prosecution and first level court before it; while getting two obviously innocent people out of prison.
 
I wish we had some Italian law expert (is Macchiavelli one?) that could help with these latest questions and could answer if the legal documents from Hellmann's trial are accepted as evidence in this new appeal, especially C&V. It has been said many times so far that it stands in Florence, but it would be nice if we could get some kind of official confirmation, if that's even possible, as I realize it's not something with a ready answer. The SC's opinion about C&V wasn't exactly the best, as I've just read on PMF (didn't bother to read the whole SC's ruling). I ask because amongst PGP and us people are having different opinions about it.
 
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I wish we had some Italian law expert (is Macchiavelli one?) that could help with these latest questions and could answer if the legal documents from Hellmann's trial are accepted as evidence in this new appeal, especially C&V. It has been said many times o far that it stands in Florence, but it would be nice if we could get some kind of official confirmation. I ask because amongst PGP and us people are having different opinions about it.

Machiavelli says he's an expert in theatre. It's how he claims to have intuited that Knox was guilty, when he saw her in court.

He has never claimed law expertise, really, but he obviously has access to folk who are. He also has access to original documents. Strangely when trying to refute a point (eg. the Satanic Rite theory Mignini once proposed) Machiavelli will claim to have original documents of Mignini's speech (or some such thing) and then does not post it.

Since a de novo appeal's trial is a full blown "re do" of the first level trial, the judge is probably at liberty to accept or reject ANY document or witness, irregardless of whether or not the first trial entered it or refused to. Witness that Massei's court refused to do an independent DNA evaluation, but the Hellmann court overruled that by appointing Conti & Vecchiotti.

As such, the Supreme Court is not supposed to tinker with evidence, just make rulings of law and/or court procedure.

My assumption, and I am not a law expert in ANY country, is that unless Nencini specifically says, for instance, that C&V needs throwing out, that it stays as part of the trial record.

But yes, it would be nice to get a real expert to comment.
 
I'm not clear as to why you think the location of the bra is important (ETA: if that is what you're saying; re-reading I'm less sure I've understood you properly!). There are various possibilities: it was removed after the fatal stab wound, then tossed there by Guede, or moved/kicked there later; it was removed during the final attack, then tossed there by Guede, or moved/kicked there later; or it was removed after one or both of the minor wounds were made, but before the fatal one. In the latter case, it may be that the final location of both the bra and clasp (found nearer the middle of the room) indicates where it was removed. In any of these possibilities, the bra's final location isn't exactly decisive.

I don't think it follows that there would've been more blood on Meredith's breasts and torso if her top was undressed at that point. The T-shirts gathered around her neck would've absorbed the initial bleeding, and after she slumped forward all the blood would obviously have run forwards onto the floor, not backwards onto her chest.


The bra was removed by pulling with enough force to deform the hooks and rip the stitching out where the shoulder strap and clasp attach to the band. This happened after enough blood had flowed from the neck wounds to saturate the right shoulder strap and aspirated blood droplets had fallen on the top surfaces of the cups.

But there is one other spot of blood on the bra of particular interest in determining the timing of events. On the back band where it was grabbed to pull it apart, where Rudy's DNA was left behind, there is a spot that saturated the fabric. But this spot was not all red like the other saturating spots. This saturated spot is diluted blood that can only come from after Rudy visited the bathroom to wash up.
 
Judge Hellmann's judge/layjudge panel already did this in 2011. The convicted of calunnia and the ISC upheld it. But in 2011 it was a way of splitting the difference - trying to save face for the prosecution and first level court before it; while getting two obviously innocent people out of prison.

The Callunia was always a charge that Amanda was convicted, even in the Massei court. This is different...I think.
 
One of the places Yummi (Machiavelli) can be found online since the revelation that it's only Knox's DNA on the kitchen knife, is to be found in Andrea Vogt tweets.

But it's no wonder he's not posting here. He seems resigned that the knife now is not linked to the murder.... but that the last round of testing implies that Conti & Vecchiotti are fraudulent.

But it does look like dissension is breaking out in guilter ranks. If true, Machiavelli now seems resigned simply to go after folk like Vecchiotti - maybe even Hellmann for taking that Masonic bribe!

All for Meredith, I suppose.
 
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Bill Williams said:
Judge Hellmann's judge/layjudge panel already did this in 2011. The convicted of calunnia and the ISC upheld it. But in 2011 it was a way of splitting the difference - trying to save face for the prosecution and first level court before it; while getting two obviously innocent people out of prison.

The Callunia was always a charge that Amanda was convicted, even in the Massei court. This is different...I think.
Well..... not in terms of my own suspicious little conspiratorial mind. I had first agreed with ALL the verdicts that Hellmann's court reached. Then I read the transcript of Drew Griffin's CNN interview with Mignini.

I now regard Hellmann's conviction of Knox for calunnia as a calculated risk that the ISC would think that this was enough punishment... it got her out of Italy, but maybe it was "enough" to keep the voracious appetite of the Italian judiciary at bay.

Apparently not. But if Nencini actually judges this on the facts (with the other 7) then there's really nothing left to convict the two of them of.... without doing the Massei-like thing of making up "probablies".
 
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Well..... not in terms of my own suspicious little conspiratorial mind. I had first agreed with ALL the verdicts that Hellmann's court reached. Then I read the transcript of Drew Griffin's CNN interview with Mignini.

I now regard Hellmann's conviction of Knox for calunnia as a calculated risk that the ISC would think that this was enough punishment... it got her out of Italy, but maybe it was "enough" to keep the voracious appetite of the Italian judiciary at bay.

Apparently not. But if Nencini actually judges this on the facts (with the other 7) then there's really nothing left to convict the two of them of.... without doing the Massei-like thing of making up "probablies".

I agree with this analysis...not that I ever agreed with Hellman's callunia verdict. I don't know if Hellmann was taking a calculated risk or just giving a compromise verdict to let the Perugians save face.

I also think it is important to recognize that while we call this the Hellmann Zanetti verdict, it really isn't, there were other jury members. Mental out loud calculation like this seems unlikely to me, because I think it would appear to the lay judges as compromising judicial integrity. On the other hand...who really knows??
 
This is nitpicking over nuances in Candace's reporting
Actually there's no evidence there was starch in the sample, C&V just said that it was on the knife. Being as there was starch on the knife I am guessing that if Stefanoni actually scraped something out of that striation it was starch.

But as to what I highlighted, I agree wholeheartedly. :)

Yes it is. After tons of posts by Bill complaining about Vogt and "I was there", I pointed out a recent mistake made by Candace that I couldn't be just a mistake. I think clearly if Vogt is the PR agent for Mignini that Candace is a PR agent for Knox and to a lesser extent Raf.

I can't find the "I was there" recent story but if Bill says it's there, it must be.

Vogt has been busy with all sorts of projects and may not parse the whole wiki she links to, which is unfortunate but no more evil than Dempsey's 'starch", Dr No etc. IMO.
 
This is nitpicking over nuances in Candace's reporting


Yes it is. After tons of posts by Bill complaining about Vogt and "I was there", I pointed out a recent mistake made by Candace that I couldn't be just a mistake. I think clearly if Vogt is the PR agent for Mignini that Candace is a PR agent for Knox and to a lesser extent Raf.

I can't find the "I was there" recent story but if Bill says it's there, it must be.

Vogt has been busy with all sorts of projects and may not parse the whole wiki she links to, which is unfortunate but no more evil than Dempsey's 'starch", Dr No etc. IMO.

My word the rhetoric is thick in this one. Where have I complained? "No more evil than....."?

Candace as a PR agent. ... since when does laying out the case for innocence do that? Is Hellmann a PR agent?

Where Vogt becomes one is when she breaks ranks with the Italian judiciary itself to represent Mignini's view of things - which is also what McCall's Wiki does. Right down the line.
 
That is reasonable. From what I can see, while not be 100 correct, the spirit of Candace Dempsey's report is accurate. Definitely not something that I think would make someone say that CD was deliberately misleading, which seems to be Grinder's point. Overall, when it comes to the facts of this case, CD has done a very good job, the same cannot be said about Vogt, Barbie and Follain.

It seems to me that Grinder always tries to make a point that he is 100% neutral and objective so he finds things to nitpick about the innocence perspective. Even though he is convinced of their innocence as well.

I think I am totally objective, but that doesn't mean I haven't made up my mind.

Tesla I'm firmly in the camp that the ILE didn't make there case. The scenarios that the prosecution were forced to make given the witnesses they accepted never worked for me at all.

One of your favorites here has taken a very similar position.

Randy wrote that he advised Candace that the starch remark should be changed but it wasn't. As sure as you are that the kids are completely innocent, equals how sure I am that Candace knew she was using a PIP flippant remark that is supposed to make the ICSI look bad. I think the truth makes them look bad enough.

Randy - CD asked for opinions on her article before she sent it out. I mentioned the starch issue was unrelated to 36B and that her article implied the two were related.

I can only imagine that she didn't want to write another book explaining the distinction about the two.


It wasn't in her book but rather in her latest article er... post.

I am not a 100% neutral but see that along with Vogt and Barbie, Candace does bad reporting or if you all prefer blogging.
 
Vogt meanwhile is still taking the kitchen knife seriously as a possible murder weapon. She was even willing to speculate that the presence of Guede's DNA on the knife might confirm his story of being an innocent bystander who was stabbed by Amanda or Raffaele when he went to Meredith's aid. Six years into this case, with all the information that has come down the pike, that is the mark of an absolute nitwit. She should go back to scaling logs.

While I have always thought the knife was at the very best mishandled and therefore out, what would your conclusion be if legitimate DNA of Rudy were found on the knife?

She is quite an accomplished journalist both in print and electronic.

Perhaps Candace was lucky to be under the influence of the FOA and not in Perugia for extended lengths of time.

It is a shame that she feels the need to make stuff up like the starch and use hyperbolic terms in her reporting blogging.
 
That seems correct to me. I cringed a bit when I saw something like it in print before, but I assumed that what the author meant was that C & V found starch (as opposed to blood) on the knife and that C & V was not saying that DNA found by Stefanoni was actually starch.

So who was wrong in davefoc land:
Grinder - 50%
He over rated the importance of Dempsey's imprecise language

acbytesla - 50%
The exchange went on for several posts before acbytesla acknowledged that by the literal meaning of Dempsey's statement she was wrong.

There is no interpretation of the error in what she wrote:

In the last trial, a speck the police claimed was the victim’s DNA turned out to be starch.
That isn't open to anything but being 100% wrong and something anybody with a brain that has followed this has known for years.

It is impossible to believe that she didn't understand that or she less able than even I give her credit for.
 
While I have always thought the knife was at the very best mishandled and therefore out, what would your conclusion be if legitimate DNA of Rudy were found on the knife?

She is quite an accomplished journalist both in print and electronic.

Perhaps Candace was lucky to be under the influence of the FOA and not in Perugia for extended lengths of time.

It is a shame that she feels the need to make stuff up like the starch and use hyperbolic terms in her reporting blogging.

It is amazing that it takes undue hyperbole to support Vogt as a serious journalist while using hyperbole to criticize Dempsey.

I do believe I've now seen everything.

Would a "serious journalist" report the way Vogt is, given the nature of what we presently and provisionally know about that knife?

She would if she was representing one narrow opinion: Mignini's. I mean it's not as if he has anything riding on that knife! Just his career, going back to the Narduci case.

On wwhat basis does anyone say that is the murder weapon? For pete's sake! Why are you defending her?
 
Tesla I'm firmly in the camp that the ILE didn't make there case. The scenarios that the prosecution were forced to make given the witnesses they accepted never worked for me at all.

One of your favorites here has taken a very similar position.

Randy wrote that he advised Candace that the starch remark should be changed but it wasn't. As sure as you are that the kids are completely innocent, equals how sure I am that Candace knew she was using a PIP flippant remark that is supposed to make the ICSI look bad. I think the truth makes them look bad enough.

Randy - CD asked for opinions on her article before she sent it out. I mentioned the starch issue was unrelated to 36B and that her article implied the two were related.

I can only imagine that she didn't want to write another book explaining the distinction about the two.


It wasn't in her book but rather in her latest article er... post.

I am not a 100% neutral but see that along with Vogt and Barbie, Candace does bad reporting or if you all prefer blogging.

First, allow me to say that I KNOW that you take the position that there is no credible evidence supporting the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele.

But you need to go back and read what Randy wrote. That science and journalism doesn't always work that well together. That while he recommended that she change the wording, he did think the difference was much ado about nothing.

It is correct that the DNA sample is not starch. However, the essence of what Candace was saying about only starch being found on the knife actually is true. Trying to explain this technical difference to uneducated readers was Candace's challenge and she decided that it was too difficult and not worth it.
I see why you are annoyed, not that I understand it. The difference is absolutely not enough to say that Candace was even remotely deceptive. Virtually no one outside of us over analytic spectators could ever discern the difference.
 
My assumption, and I am not a law expert in ANY country, is that unless Nencini specifically says, for instance, that C&V needs throwing out, that it stays as part of the trial record.

But yes, it would be nice to get a real expert to comment

It became my weird, obsession thing, to be honest. For a couple of days now I'm surfing the web back and forth looking for some confirmation. Some says it's valid and some that it's thrown out along with all things from the Hellmann court.
 
I wish we had some Italian law expert (is Macchiavelli one?) that could help with these latest questions and could answer if the legal documents from Hellmann's trial are accepted as evidence in this new appeal, especially C&V. It has been said many times so far that it stands in Florence, but it would be nice if we could get some kind of official confirmation, if that's even possible, as I realize it's not something with a ready answer. The SC's opinion about C&V wasn't exactly the best, as I've just read on PMF (didn't bother to read the whole SC's ruling). I ask because amongst PGP and us people are having different opinions about it.

I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that everything from the Hellmann trial (along with everything from the Massei trial and the pre-trial hearings) will be admitted as evidence in the new appeal trial.

The Supreme Court ruling on the Hellmann appeal clearly indicates that it is not the C/V report per se with which the SC has a problem. In fact, the SC explicitly states that the report has judicial legitimacy, and was legitimately ordered by the Hellmann court. The SC also does not have a problem with the C/V report itself, nor with its conclusions.

Rather, the SC argues (totally incorrectly in my view, but that's a different matter...) that Hellmann's court was wrong to accept "unquestioningly" the conclusions of the C/V report. The SC points out that prosecution experts (who didn't have a vested interest of course - perish the thought!) had previously testified that the forensic work of Stefanoni et al was just fine and dandy, and that therefore the results of Stefanoni's analysis should be above reproach. The SC therefore essentially says that Hellmann's court "erred" by not taking the views of these other prosecution experts into account.

I suspect that the new appeal may be able to break the deadlock on this by either having a fuller, wider debate on whether Stefanoni's results are reliable and credible or not (heads-up hint for the court: they're not), or by delving further into the rationale behind C/V's conclusions (heads-up hint for the court: broadly speaking, they're spot on).

In effect, the SC is saying "We reject Hellmann's conclusions on the reliability/credibility of the DNA evidence as presented in the motivations report, since it appears to be an arbitrary acceptance of C/V's case over that of the prosecution". Setting aside for a moment the fact that C&V were appointed as neutral court experts* - whereas clearly the prosecution has a vested interest in producing experts which support its position (as indeed does the defence) - I feel it's now up to the new appeal trial to reach a measured, balanced, objective conclusion on the issue (final heads-up hint for the court: the correct conclusion is that none of Stefanoni's work is either credible or reliable, since pretty much every protocol in the book for collecting, handling, transporting, storing, testing and interpreting low template DNA was either ignored or flagrantly breached by the fragrant not-a-real-doctor).

* Of course, if either the SC or the new appeal court or the prosecutors want to try to argue that C&V were actually improperly biased to the defence, then a) they'd better prove it, and b) they'd better also show how any such bias might have affected the C/V report's conclusions. To me, it seems pretty obvious that the C/V report's conclusions were objective and impartial, since they were in line with any rational, scientific analysis of Stefanoni's work. It goes without saying that their conclusions were therefore favourable to the defence, and I suppose that it therefore goes without saying that certain parties would leap on that as some sort of element of "proof" of improper bias.
 
Random Harvest

I reread Candace's entry, and she updated it and changed the wording. Maybe Grinder sent her a message suggesting a correction.

Amanda's defense asked that the Toshiba drive be sent back to the manufacturer several years ago. AFAIK it was not. Besides the damaged drives, there was also a loss of metadata, such as the time of access to the Stardust file. I do not think highly of Andrea Vogt's reporting overall, but she did report on this when it was brought up during the trial.

Raffaele confused the events of 31 October and 1 November during his interrogation of 5 November. His memory was not as badly affected as the main character in Random Harvest, and his book makes clear that he and Amanda spent 1 November together at his flat.
 
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LondonJohn provides, again. You actually wrote what I wanted to read. It's always great to read your posts. Thank you!:)
 
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It became my weird, obsession thing, to be honest. For a couple of days now I'm surfing the web back and forth looking for some confirmation. Some says it's valid and some that it's thrown out along with all things from the Hellmann court.


Nothing is being thrown out from the Hellmann court.

There's obviously confusion and misinformation going round. There still, for example, appear to be many who can't grasp what the Carabinieri have just been testing - and what they've not been testing.

And for the record, once again, the new appeal court specifically, explicitly and solely tasked the Carabinieri with DNA testing sample 36I - a swab lifted from the knife by Vecchiotti in 2011, The Carabinieri did not have the knife itself, and nor were they mandated to examine or test the knife, and nor were they mandated to examine or test any samples from the knife other than C/V's sample 36I.

Therefore ALL that the Carabinieri tested (or will test) is the single swab containing sample 36I. This sample was taken from the part of the knife blade that meets the plastic handle, and (once more for emphasis) was taken from the knife in 2011 by Vecchiotti.

So far, the Carabinieri's analysis of this sample 36I appears to have yielded a positive result for Knox's DNA at extremely low-template levels. In my opinion, further testing might yield a male profile (since the C/V report indicated the presence of tiny amounts of male DNA), but it's equally possible that any minute amounts of male DNA that might be present on the sample 36I are at levels too small to be identified in any case.
 
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