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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I don't think anything bothers me more than how people like Machiavelli and others have used the sexual nature of this murder as an excuse to tie normal sexual exploration as something deviant and perverse. We've seen the prosecution, Machiavelli and others demonize Amanda and Raffaele and call them freaks. Even if Amanda and Raffaele were interested in group sex and there is no evidence that they were, there is no link between that behavior and violence or murders.

So Amanda and Raffaele not only have to defend against the murder charge, they are forced to deal the prudish jerks who are calling them freaks.

Personally, I don't think Mignini's that big a prude. He obviously gets off on thoughts of girl-on-girl sex and group sex, both of which I personally find pretty far out (I am no RWVBWL). Even if those were my fantasies, I would never reveal them in public by projecting them onto other people as he did. Either he is completely oblivious to his preferences, or he thinks they are no big deal. He may have reason to believe that those particular sexual activities are common. Too much Fellini?

I have always thought it was the video of Amanda and Raffaele kissing that got Mignini's juices flowing. He probably watched it like a zillion times and not only found it arousing but also found himself getting infuriated that Amanda would go for the fair, nerdy kid instead of a stud like himself. Grrr!

Judging from the truly enormous backlash against Amanda in the early days of the case, we have to conclude that many people's physical and emotional responses to her appearance and her sexuality engendered uncomfortable feelings in them, leading to strong resentment. Mignini was one of the few who actually had the opportunity to punish the object of those feelings.
 
Personally, I don't think Mignini's that big a prude. He obviously gets off on thoughts of girl-on-girl sex and group sex, both of which I personally find pretty far out (I am no RWVBWL). Even if those were my fantasies, I would never reveal them in public by projecting them onto other people as he did. Either he is completely oblivious to his preferences, or he thinks they are no big deal. He may have reason to believe that those particular sexual activities are common. Too much Fellini?

I have always thought it was the video of Amanda and Raffaele kissing that got Mignini's juices flowing. He probably watched it like a zillion times and not only found it arousing but also found himself getting infuriated that Amanda would go for the fair, nerdy kid instead of a stud like himself. Grrr!

Judging from the truly enormous backlash against Amanda in the early days of the case, we have to conclude that many people's physical and emotional responses to her appearance and her sexuality engendered uncomfortable feelings in them, leading to strong resentment. Mignini was one of the few who actually had the opportunity to punish the object of those feelings.
This is formidably similar to the psychological profiling I read on the pmf sites etc., however you are absolutely right in your analysis, and they are absolutely wrong, my interest in the duck rabbit visual illusion of confirmation bias as it exactly schematically describes this case continues.
 
This is formidably similar to the psychological profiling I read on the pmf sites etc., however you are absolutely right in your analysis, and they are absolutely wrong, my interest in the duck rabbit visual illusion of confirmation bias as it exactly schematically describes this case continues.

I am not a psychologist, I only play one on TV. ;) What is this duck rabbit visual illusion to which you refer?
 
I am not a psychologist, I only play one on TV. ;) What is this duck rabbit visual illusion to which you refer?
I thought a quick internet search would steer anyone to this elegant illusion. A thousand words instead. A silhouette portrayed by two hands creates a duck or a rabbit, long ears or long beak as you choose. Eww but nothing to worry about. Killer or narrator. In my world the latter. Mach has buried himself with the recent post where he declares substantive similarity between Raffaele could have gone murder M and Amanda posits he did.
 
A lawyer would have had to have been present for a confession, the police didn't want lawyers involved as they told both Raffaele and Amanda and their actions indicate. What they did was yell at Raffaele about what Amanda did that night until they convinced him that must have been the night Amanda went to Le Chic. He didn't know for sure and they wouldn't let him check a calender, they wanted a statement to that effect and he signed it after being threatened if he tried to leave and not being able to call a lawyer or his father.

They then took Amanda into that room and went over her actions that night and again she fails to tell them about Patrick's text the night of the murder. As Arturo di Felice would say shortly after the arrest, quoted here by Malcolm Moore et al of the Telegraph:



They had Raffaele and Amanda wiretapped, they (and the defense) would produce evidence of conversations between Amanda and Raffaele in court, they had access to her mobile phone records which recorded texts between Patrick and Amanda right before Meredith left for the cottage from her night with the English girls. Patrick had just met Amanda the day of the interrogations in a manner that might have looked suspicious, previously he'd called down to the Questura (the night of the discovery IIRC) to check on Amanda, the police might have thought they were putting two and two together and they called Raffaele in and got a 'confirmation' that Amanda hadn't been with Raffaele and had gone to Le Chic.

So with Amanda readily at hand being as she'd tagged along with Raffaele to the Questura as she was afraid to be alone with a murderer on the loose, they took her into that room and after going through it again without her mentioning the text (as it really had nothing to do with the murder) they told her they had 'hard evidence' she was at the cottage, that Raffaele had 'dropped' her alibi and she had to stop protecting the murderer or she'd be going to jail for thirty years and would never see her mother again, amongst other pleasantries.



She'd told them again and again what she knew, what they were asking her for was what she didn't know but they claimed they had proof had happened. These weren't straighforward questions at all, they were about something the police said they had 'hard evidence' of that Amanda had no recollection of. So they told her that she might have 'repressed the memory due to trauma' as Anna Domino testified to, and they thrust the cellphone in front of her face and demanded she recall who it was, insistent it had something to do with the murder, and started hitting her upside the back of the head, 'to help her remember' and she recalled it was Patrick, and summoned metal images of Patrick, by the basketball courts, by the door of the cottage, just like she details in her note the day of the arrests, the best contemporaneous account of what Amanda was actually thinking about the night of the interrogations, with no translator, no statement typed up by police in a language she could barely read, her own words.

She probably 'leaps to the arrest of Patrick' because what happened in between those sentences was what would ruin her life and is probably very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't been surrounded by police yelling and threatening them about something that didn't happen in the middle of the night in a week of high stress and little sleep. They managed to convince her they must have been right and those mental images were related to the murder and she'd 'repressed' that. In simple terms they gaslit her. As Arturo di Felice also put it at that press conference:



They 'knew' that Amanda and Patrick had exchanged texts and thought it meant they met up the night of the murder, as the phrase Amanda used to say 'see you later' comes across in Italian more like 'see you soon' which implies a (definite) future meeting. They ignored the signing off of 'good night' which ought to have suggested that perhaps the foreign exchange student with only a semester of Italian and a couple months in Italy didn't mean it that way. Now here are what they thought were the 'facts we knew to be correct' from the two statements Amanda signed in the middle of the night, exhausted, stressed and without a lawyer:



I've stripped all the official wording out of it and the description of Patrick and his bar and the cell phone numbers to pare it down to what the 'facts we knew to be correct' could have been. As you can see there's almost nothing there concrete outside the fact she received a text from Patrick and replied, everything else is qualified with how "confused" she was starting with when she (supposedly) left the cottage, then not being able to recall if Meredith was there, she struggles to remember the moment that Patrick had sex with Meredith, (because he didn't) can't remember if there were anything threats and then she "confusedly recalls that he killed her."

Now here's the 5:45 Statement, at this point Mignini is involved, the above happened (mainly) as the result of Polizia di Stato officers from the Questura, Raffo, Ficarra and Zugarini, listed in the officialese I snipped but can be found at the links above. The part following the statements and which ends the document is telling:



At this point she's supposedly a suspect, and as such subject to protections under Italian law, which would require a lawyer and taping, the latter something they had no problem doing other times she was in this room giving previous statements, or other rooms of the Questura, or even talking to Raffaele on her cell phone as would be revealed in court. This part, and all of that night is missing from their otherwise obsessive surveillance of Amanda. Here is the 5:45 AM statement, again stripped of the officialese and which came at the culmination of 53 of 89 hours she'd spent with police since the postal police arrived at the cottage at roughly 1 PM on the second:



Again, outside the text message exchange there's no facts here that aren't qualified by "I do not recall exactly," "It seems to me" "I cannot recall," "I don't remember anything anymore, I am very confused in my head," "I do not recall," "I was imagining" and she's "not sure whether Raffaele was present." The only new 'fact' here is the scream which she testified in court as happening as a result of being led through the statement by Mignini (and others) and being asked why she didn't hear it, and she volunteered that maybe she'd covered her ears. "Fine, we'll write that down. Fine" is what they said. They fed it to her and recorded her speculation.

The other interesting addition is that now she's 'afraid' of Patrick when as revealed later in the statement she'd just met him that day (November 5th). Later during this day (Nov. 6) she'd write the note linked above telling them she didn't think she could be used as "testimone" and they needed to find the "Real murder(er)" and she didn't think any of this really happened, but for some reason between meeting Patrick at the University and her second statement she's become afraid of Patrick: because the police have convinced her he must have been the murderer.

The police had Amanda and Raffaele wiretapped and had their phone records, they were convinced that text message was related to the murder. They called Raffaele in and confused him to the point he signed a statement mushing up October 31st and November 1st as he wasn't sure what they did. They used that to go after an exhausted, stressed Amanda until the wee hours of the morning telling her they had 'hard evidence' she was at the scene and Raffaele had dropped her alibi, that she must have 'repressed' it and the poor girl believed them. She summoned mental images when she remembered the text message and realized they were talking about Patrick and tried to confabulate a statement around it, which she always qualified with how "confused" it was. Later that day (after she'd had a chance to sleep!) she'd write that note saying how she didn't think any of it happened, she couldn't be used as 'testimone' etc. The next day, the Seventh, she wrote them another note saying she was certain she'd never left and none of it happened, and the following said the same to her lawyers.

However the police went out and arrested Patrick off this wholly confused gibberish elicited from an isolated foreign exchange student in the middle of the night, then rounded up a 'witness' to his bar being closed and took this before a judge, mainly on the strength of the text messages and wouldn't let him go no matter what Amanda said, or they overheard Amanda saying to her mother, who as of the 10th has realized the cops didn't actually have any evidence against Patrick, just the confused confabulation they coerced from her. Going from from what she's said, she feels badly about what happened to Patrick and blames herself for anything she might have had to do with it, but in the final analysis it was the police who pushed her to the point where she "buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct," who accepted that confused gibberish as 'fact,' hauled him out of his home early in the morning and wouldn't listen to him or any of the ones who could alibi him--but instead rounded up a 'witness' to his bar being closed.

The police are the ones responsible for the arrest and detainment of Patrice Lumumba. That they have managed to scapegoat Amanda and she was convicted and sentenced to three years in prison for their mistake is one of the true travesties of this case. She spent a total of four years in prison and they tried (and are still trying!) to use it take as much of her life as they can well as a result of that harrowing night in the Questura, they all had medals pinned on their chests.

I wouldn't blame her if what she really wants to say about it to anyone who asks is more along the lines of:

'Listen up, you bootlicking scumpuppy, the police are the ones who took me in the backroom and mind-raped me, they're the ones who arrested Patrick, and they were the ones who wouldn't let him go when I told them it never could have happened. My problem was believing those police, yours is you still do.'



She never wanted to harm Patrick, she wanted to help ILE find the killer of Meredith and in her condition that night not mentally and emotionally strong enough to disbelieve them as they went at her until she 'buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct.'



Amanda's note is the best contemporaneous account of what she was trying to convey after they did what they did to her in that overnight session. In it she explicitly says she cannot be used as 'testimone' and they need to find the 'REAL murder(er).' Her note on the seventh (for which I cannot recall a link--anyone else have one?) is definite, as is the one to her lawyers the following day. If they had ever let her see a lawyer when she asked then neither of those statements would have been signed, they knew that which is why they told her it would go worse for her if she had one. They were lying, they do that. They get away with it just by blaming her for 'accusing' Patrick when they're the ones who worked her over until she "buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct."

“Il caso è chiuso”

Very good summary. It is almost impossible to find any malicious intent from Amanda at all, and her current slander conviction seems most unfair.
 
There was no journalist in the courtroom at the preliminary hearing. It was hold behind closed doors.
But anyway if you think everyone in court heard him, I suppose you can point to plenty of Italian newspapers sources reporting it.

I suppose we all know that a Satanic reference came from Carlo Pacelli, Lumumba's lawyer, but couldn't Machiavelli, with his or her connections get Manuela Comodi to publicly comment on the suggestion that she dissuaded Mignini to continue that line? (Though if Mignini used the word "she devil", that is, by definition, satanic).
 
I suppose we all know that a Satanic reference came from Carlo Pacelli, Lumumba's lawyer, but couldn't Machiavelli, with his or her connections get Manuela Comodi to publicly comment on the suggestion that she dissuaded Mignini to continue that line? (Though if Mignini used the word "she devil", that is, by definition, satanic).

Not sure if the reference came from Pacelli or another but I think the translated "she devil" came from him (Pacelli) and not Mignini.
 
Very good summary. It is almost impossible to find any malicious intent from Amanda at all, and her current slander conviction seems most unfair.

Thanks, that's one that really burns me, she writes and writes to them how she doesn't think it happened but they have the unmitigated gall to claim she never retracted her 'accusation.' They cherry-pick that one line regarding 'I stand by my statements about what could have happened'--which is already qualified by could--as some sort of absolute confirmation and get to ignore the rest of the note which belies that very conclusion.
 
The most likely event is #2.


"likely" must have a different meaning in Italian. Machiavelli is choosing to believe the scenario that best protects Mignini and the police without offering any evidence to support this choice while the evidence that has been presented clearly points to scenario #1.


I would guess a likely reconstruction of the sequence in these steps: a) The photo was from a police fil;


And here Machiavelli starts his reconstruction with a fabrication or outright lie. If the photo was in the police file, the lawyers would all have them and thus we would have seen them. I have stated earlier how Machiavelli could support his contention that the photo was in the police file but instead he just reasserts the contention.


b) the police file was accessed by one of the parties lawyer/s; c) the lawyer/s or people close to the party gave the picture to a journalist or anyway to third person; d) the journalist or the person sold the photos to either i) sold the formally but illicitly to Barcroft or another media company; ii) gave/sold them informally to his/her newspaper or a media subject; iii) gave/sold them informally to another person; in the case d.(i), the last step is that someone or some subject sells picture to Barcroft claiming an unjustified copyright. In the other cases there may be no subject who claimed an unjustified copyright except Barcroft, but anyway the copirygthe was illicitely created/transferred. In any event, there is certainly a copyright use violation (unjustified use of copyright) along the proces of handling the photos, at some point of the chain.
This does not imply that some officer, nor that some lawyer nor that a party committed anything of criminal nature.
The copyright violation itself might have or not have a criminal content but, strictu sensu, an issue of illicit use of coryright could be only brought to court by a subject who owned the copyright and was damaged by it, or anyway who was damaged by its illicit claim.


And so with the initial premiss clearly struck down here and in previous posts, the entire argument fails.
 
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I suppose we all know that a Satanic reference came from Carlo Pacelli, Lumumba's lawyer, but couldn't Machiavelli, with his or her connections get Manuela Comodi to publicly comment on the suggestion that she dissuaded Mignini to continue that line? (Though if Mignini used the word "she devil", that is, by definition, satanic).


My first search indicates that Pacelli used the phrase first but I found indications that the prosecution had used it later.

This should be an easy one for someone to properly document. Begin the search for references and quotes incorporating the phrase in published articles relating to the case. The English quotes can be used to track down the original Italian version and that gives you access to the Italian reporting. Put everything into a timeline to make it easier to identify the original reporting and who is reporting on the reports.
 
I can confirm that he is a Catholic. I can't tell how "conservative", albeit there are some clues that he was interested in a "conservative" (right-wing) catholic journal and group of people.
But I can also tell that he is an anti-clerical (self-defined as a member of the "ghibellino" Catholics).
I don't think he is a conservative on doctrine/religious level, but I guess he may have conservative ideas on a political/social level.
In the Magistracy, he is an Independent, means from a very moderate centre group and the majority one (while Pratillo Hellmann for instance, is a member of Unicost, a right-wing and quite pro-Berlusconi group of Magistrates).

Spezi seems a bit more sure of his Catholic group connections...(Google translation)

The name of the public prosecutor of Perugia, Giuliano Mignini
entered the site of the ultra-fundamentalist Association legitimist Throne and
Altar when on Monday, 8 October 2012, the members celebrated in
Trieste the centenary of the death of Charles VII of Bourbon-Spain, from
they considered to be the legitimate king of Spain. "Numerous - reads
the site - the adhesions personal friends (...): in addition to these, and
many others, we apologize if you do not name them, the important
Minister of Perugia, Giuliano Mignini, "defined, erroneously,
"Minister" and not "public ministry."
And, given that the magistrate is the same as that behind the killing of
Meredith Kercher sees motives type Satanists related party
Halloween, it is particularly interesting to read in a
page of the website of the Association and legitimist Throne
Altar an article, signed by the priest Don Marcello Stanzione,
In it is recommended that all children and young people "not to
adhere in any way to Halloween, why is abolished
the offensive of the devil that has as its workhorse
esotericism and occultism. Halloween is the event for many successful
so many people remains fragile manipulated and enslaved behind the
magicians of the occult. "
While declaring not anti-Semitic, the Association supports
the authenticity of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

The name of Giuliano Mignini also appears in the site
another Catholic organization "fundamentalist" Alleanza Cattolica,
which has about 400 members, including a large group of
academics, sociologists, politicians, journalists, such as the
Undersecretary of the Interior of the Berlusconi government Alfredo
Mantua, from the neo-fascist party MSI, and the sociologist
Massimo Introvigne, perhaps the most well-known expert of seven Italian
satanic. The articles in the newspaper association, Christianity,
emphasize Catholic values ​​and condemn harshly practices
homosexuals, abortion, contraception, divorce and qualify the
World Social Forum as a "laboratory of subversion";
For the site of Alleanza Cattolica Giuliano Mignini wrote a
long article, entitled "Viva Maria!",
 
What Amanda might have meant

I wondered if the poster still read the posts on this forum because I thought the discussion of whether Amanda meant to accuse Lumumba or incriminate him when she "confusedly remembered" details of the night were quite interesting. Machiavelli seemed to have quite a black and white take on the issue , but it seemed far from the case to me, and Bri1 articulated the other side rather well I thought. I don't think the poster on PMF.org gets the benefit of much nuanced discussion.
When Amanda said that they didn't take a confession, perhaps she meant from Lumumba, and that might be the answer to Fiona's confusion.
 
I'm with Bill on this Grinder.

Shocking, I tell you shocking!

There is little reason not to believe that Mignini gave serious consideration that Amanda's and Raffaele's motive was a sacrificial rite surrounding Halloween. Sound satanic to me. How many times did Mignini refer to Amanda as a "she devil"?

What does that even mean? There is little reason not to believe Mignini gave serious consideration...so? How many times did he refer to her as a "she devil"? Please tell us.

Please explain why it is important whether he actually said "satanic rite" or just said it was a "sex game". Why would it matter if he gave "serious consideration" that given the date that it might have something to do with Halloween? I would say that anybody investigating that murder should have at least given it a passing thought.

The fact that the PGP spew out BS doesn't mean that the PIP should also carry-on.

For example, you say Filomena has the same alibi because she was with her boyfriend but you have no real idea what that alibi consisted of yet you repeat it.

Peter Popham, one of my favorites on this, may mention satanic but unless he gives us the specific point it was said I will not accept it as proven.

Let's say that Mignini came out today and said "yes, at one point early on I thought and said it was or might be a satanic rite, but changed my mind to a sex game"? What difference would it make?
 
Shocking, I tell you shocking!



What does that even mean? There is little reason not to believe Mignini gave serious consideration...so? How many times did he refer to her as a "she devil"? Please tell us.

Please explain why it is important whether he actually said "satanic rite" or just said it was a "sex game". Why would it matter if he gave "serious consideration" that given the date that it might have something to do with Halloween? I would say that anybody investigating that murder should have at least given it a passing thought.

The fact that the PGP spew out BS doesn't mean that the PIP should also carry-on.

For example, you say Filomena has the same alibi because she was with her boyfriend but you have no real idea what that alibi consisted of yet you repeat it.

Peter Popham, one of my favorites on this, may mention satanic but unless he gives us the specific point it was said I will not accept it as proven.

Let's say that Mignini came out today and said "yes, at one point early on I thought and said it was or might be a satanic rite, but changed my mind to a sex game"? What difference would it make?

Not much, but you left out the manga comics. It's a fantasy regardless. Other than pot, what drugs fueled this?
 
my best shot

Not much, but you left out the manga comics. It's a fantasy regardless. Other than pot, what drugs fueled this?
Smoking pot obviously led to the stabbing of a loaf of rye bread, which... Well that was my best shot at trying to make the story work.
 
Wow - that is what I call a very "finessed" response. In other words, she's a liar. Go ahead, Machiavelli, you can say it... you say it about a lot of people.

Can you admit that Dempsey is a liar? She just wrote that the DNA on the knife turned out to be starch. No matter what your allies here say, no one expert has ever said that the Meredith DNA on the knife was starch. Contamination, yes.

In the past when I pointed out other errors, the response was she was just blogging. Randy even said he told her about the starch but she still published it.

What is amazing reading your stuff, Machiavelli is the way you describe friends who make mistakes, and the way you positively demonize people on the other side of the fence.

Kettle - Pot?

And your "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is also intriguing. My bet that Italian reporters were more practised in avoiding defamation charges.....

Come on Bill, bring back "fog of nonsense".

But thanks for your words about Nadeau. They positively fill me with confidence about what she wrote - who you can criticize, it seems, while admitting you've never read her book.

And you are criticizing MY method?

We that have been following this all have read the most questionable parts because both sides highlight them.

I think it is a fair request of you to produce Italian sources for the satanic remark, since you think it is so darn important.
 
It's too hard to enjoy the company of people with whom one has such a fundamental difference of ideals.

I'm not sure the goal of having dinner with Machiavelli is to enjoy his company or have him enjoy mine. I find that there is often a paradigm shift of understanding when two people actually meet one another. (This does not mean "conversion" to the other point of view either.....)

My confession is, though, that I would enjoy Machiavelli's wine.
 
"likely" must have a different meaning in Italian. Machiavelli is choosing to believe the scenario that best protects Mignini and the police without offering any evidence to support this choice while the evidence that has been presented clearly points to scenario #1.





And here Machiavelli starts his reconstruction with a fabrication or outright lie. If the photo was in the police file, the lawyers would all have them and thus we would have seen them. I have stated earlier how Machiavelli could support his contention that the photo was in the police file but instead he just reasserts the contention.





And so with the initial premiss clearly struck down here and in previous posts, the entire argument fails.

If, as I imagine this process to work, some lawyer went and looked at the "file" maintained in the courthouse, then they are not going to come away with a publication-worthy copy of this photograph. My guess is that the newspaper photograph is generated from an electronic file, which suggests to me that the "leaked" photo originated from the guy who took it.
 
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