Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

So you really have no idea what her alibi consisted of? I wished neither side would just repeat stuff that has no basis or at least admit that they have no proof of their contentions.

As I said when asking, do you know when they left the company of others? Do you know when they finished dinner and if it was at a restaurant? It wasn't a "school night" so one would think they would party later than 10 pm.

Perhaps they received phone calls and there was GPS to locate where they received them.

I think you have no way to say the alibis were the same, but you do.

I do not know any of that. I have not read the details of how they spent the evening of November 1st 2007 except that they were together that night. I haven't seen the details in any book. I wouldn't mind reading an actual account of Laura's and Filomena's. For some reason, specific minute by minute details of their whereabouts hasn't interested any of the journalists.

 

[Machiavelli]

I have to correct you, and many others who've referred to Mignini as "short and fat".

He's apparently c. 5'10"/1.79M tall.

That Machiavellii has never castigated anyone about this vile and oft-repeated slander (that Mignini is short) would indicate that, contrary to popular belief, he doesn't know Mignini personally.

Actually, as for what I remember of Mignini and I would say he is definitely taller than 1,80. I would say he is around 1,85.
As I met Maresca at the Florentine trial, I did not have a perception that he could be taller than me; I would say Maresca is an average person (maybe something like 1,76-1,78?) or maybe even a slightly tall person. I can't say exactly because I don't take measurements of people, but perceptions are clear; what I can say is that I did not perceive any big difference between me and Maresca, aka I do not recall him as a 'very tall' person.
But as for what I recall of Mignini, I remember distinctly the perception I had that he was significantly taller than me.

If you look at a picture with a reference (a door) you can see that in fact he is at least 10 cm taller than Maresca.

I think Mignini is quite taller than 1,79.

 

[Bill Williams]

This is interesting. Re Satan reference, is this just another carry over of popular notion? Didn't we just go through a big discussion and it seems no one found a Satan reference? Or maybe I missed the conclusion showing otherwise.

And regarding Mignini being a "conservative Catholic" - is this another internet meme, or is there some substance to it? And how do we know that if it is true, and what do we know? i would appreciate it if someone could point me to some citation regarding this.

It seems that everyone in court, except Andrea Vogt, heard him say it.

 

[Machiavelli]

This is interesting. Re Satan reference, is this just another carry over of popular notion? Didn't we just go through a big discussion and it seems no one found a Satan reference? Or maybe I missed the conclusion showing otherwise.

In fact no reference to Satan was found. Nor about a ritual murder scenario.

Instead, documentation was quoted showing that Mignini put forward a scenario of drug-fueled party with some sexual context that went out of control (something incompatible with Satanic or ritualistic scenarios).

And regarding Mignini being a "conservative Catholic" - is this another internet meme, or is there some substance to it? And how do we know that if it is true, and what do we know? i would appreciate it if someone could point me to some citation regarding this.

I can confirm that he is a Catholic. I can't tell how "conservative", albeit there are some clues that he was interested in a "conservative" (right-wing) catholic journal and group of people.
But I can also tell that he is an anti-clerical (self-defined as a member of the "ghibellino" Catholics).
I don't think he is a conservative on doctrine/religious level, but I guess he may have conservative ideas on a political/social level.
In the Magistracy, he is an Independent, means from a very moderate centre group and the majority one (while Pratillo Hellmann for instance, is a member of Unicost, a right-wing and quite pro-Berlusconi group of Magistrates).

 

[Machiavelli]

It seems that everyone in court, except Andrea Vogt, heard him say it.

There was no journalist in the courtroom at the preliminary hearing. It was hold behind closed doors.
But anyway if you think everyone in court heard him, I suppose you can point to plenty of Italian newspapers sources reporting it.

 

[Bill Williams]

In fact no reference to Satan was found. Nor about a ritual murder scenario.

Instead, documentation was quoted showing that Mignini put forward a scenario of drug-fueled party with some sexual context that went out of control (something incompatible with Satanic or ritualistic scenarios).

Not here it wasn't. You claimed to have it, and you can end the discussion right here, right now by posting it.

How many times does this request need to be made?

But I do note the passive tense of your argument. Passive tense means you don't say where it was quoted or by whom.

The truth is just about every journalist in the courtroom, except Andrea Vogt who purposely plugged her ears at that point, heard it. They all reported it.

Barbie Nadeau quoted it in her book, including that Maneula Comodi threatened to quit if Mignini took the Satanic theory to trial.

Are you calling Nadeau a liar? This is the tenth time you've been asked - you steadfastly refuse to discuss Nadeau. Why?

 

[Bill Williams]

There was no journalist in the courtroom at the preliminary hearing. It was hold behind closed doors.
But anyway if you think everyone in court heard him, I suppose you can point to plenty of Italian newspapers sources reporting it.

I ask for the eleventh time.... are you calling Nadeau a liar?

 

[Grinder]

Bill most people here have called Barbie a liar about consulting ten forensics scientists about the "mixed blood". She reported that all the reporters laughed about Marriott emails. I really don't think that the whole issue of satanic ritualistic killing is significant.

There is no proof that there was any sex game drug fueled or not.

I would appreciate it if you would provide the proof of the satanic remark or drop it.

 

[moije2]

In fact no reference to Satan was found. Nor about a ritual murder scenario.

Instead, documentation was quoted showing that Mignini put forward a scenario of drug-fueled party with some sexual context that went out of control (something incompatible with Satanic or ritualistic scenarios).



I can confirm that he is a Catholic. I can't tell how "conservative", albeit there are some clues that he was interested in a "conservative" (right-wing) catholic journal and group of people.
But I can also tell that he is an anti-clerical (self-defined as a member of the "ghibellino" Catholics).
I don't think he is a conservative on doctrine/religious level, but I guess he may have conservative ideas on a political/social level.
In the Magistracy, he is an Independent, means from a very moderate centre group and the majority one (while Pratillo Hellmann for instance, is a member of Unicost, a right-wing and quite pro-Berlusconi group of Magistrates).

Thank you for your reply. I don't understand however why a Satanic event or whatever is exclusive or incompatible with a drug fueled sex game though. Either one of those events would seem to be loose enough in practice to include a little bit of one or the other.

On that note, what is the evidence re drug fueled party with sexual context? I thought all drug tests were negative on AK and RS, inter alia.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think we know the answers to these questions, although I would also be interested in Machiavelli's take on this. Of course many many kids (American usage please) on campus have "contact" with drugs and drug dealers. Especially perhaps in Perugia if we are to believe Nadeau's descriptions of life there for students. And of course currently the popular media, television shows etc, are permeated with vampire and similar themes involving fictional/fantasy violence as the core theme. Similar to the manga stuff, but I don't personally know it. And of course they, along with every other college age person, were having sex. I will let someone else submit proof of that, but I would enjoy hearing what involves having "issues" with sex. I have always wondered about the sex life of both Mignini and Comodi for starts. They are the ones offering up this theory of "sex games" gone wrong after all. Maybe Machiavelli can tell us what "normal" sex (without "issues") is like in Italy. Different than the UK? Different than the US? So maybe of course the answer is it is different for certain people like Mignini et al. Or how about (forgot his name) Giacomo Silenzi (?) who was having a relation of some sort with Meredith? I had read that in public he would barely acknowledge Meredith. Is that true? What kind of relationship is that? Was Meredith just having a f*** buddy? She was certainly in the same environment as AK and RS, but I hardly think she killed herself for crying out loud. But people have consumed this story....

Just to point out that sex life is never an "issue" itself (unless it takes you into troubles). Personal sexual preferences, tastes, prectices themselves are not issues. As long as one enjoys them.

Raffaele Sollecito was under observation when he was at ONAOSI by the college director because he used to collect extreme violent porn (defined as 'shocking' by a student for its violence). The "issues" of this kind are not because of the sexual likes; they are just question marks about some traits of personality, in particular it is the penchant for knifes and violence - it is the attraction he manifested for the mixing of violence in his sexual fantasies, what attracted attention on Sollecito's personality. Or his expressing understanding for the Monster of Foligno (a sexually motivated serial killer).
As for Knox and Guede, there other aspects of their behaviour, having to do either with sex or violence too, which also attracted some attention.
Knox's writing fictional stories including elements such as sexual violence and manipulation or depravation (recall the "little brother" story), also graphic presence of blood. But also about wider aspects of personality, such as life as a roommate, her habits and her charachter as described by Meredith's friends and by the Italian flatmates.
For example Knox's copying the 'dominant' girl (Laura) even in her piercings; her showing off and be perceived as acting and over-the-top; her being seductive towards Meredith's boyfriend. And several other aspects.
These are complex aspects of personalities, not "issues". We cannot trivialize persons, we can't cathegorize people as "having issues" or being or not normal; but we should also not trivialize the set of elements which describe people's attitude and we should not consider them unimportant.

So a couple questions: what evidence is there regarding a sex game? Is this just a sexual fantasy of Mignini and Comodi? Perhaps first, was it Mignini and/or Comodi that advance this theory of the crime? Has it in fact been advanced? Much in the same fashion that there has been this verification about "satanic" or "ritual" etc.

I don't have time. But I think I explained what are the elements that lead to this as a plausible theory.

I have heard nothing at all mentioned to support a "sex game". We have brutally murdered young woman found naked with DNA evidence found in her of RG, and a group of people who all partook in the spliff.

What supports a sexual violence scenario is bruises on internal labia and a number of other bruises and traces, plus a male Y-haplotype compatible with Rudy Guede in her vagina.
However the physical evidence does not support a complete (non-consensual) sexual intercourse. But above all, the physical evidence and the autopsy does not support a single-rapist scenario. The presence of multiple perpetrators is the element which brings in the lable (maybe unfortunate) of "sex game". Because it was not a one-man rape, it's a violence to which several people took part and immobilyzed the victim.

Next question: Machiavelli states: "I also see evidence that the crime was committed by someone under drug effect and that all three were on drugs that night." What evidence? "Drug effect" - huh? What is that - by the nature of the wounds or something?

Yes. The nature of wounds.
And also, the very basic context of this crime. This crime has no "motive" meant in rational sense. It has causes, or a chain of causes, rather than a "motive". Even if the murder was committed - hypothetically - by a lone burglar who decided to cmmit a rape, a "cause" in this event would be anyway the influence of drugs and/or alcohol. Rudy Guede had episodes of being under alcohol and cocaine and those were the situations where his behaviour created some problems.

I am waiting for that. Evidence they were on drugs that night? That they used marijuana? Or are you meaning something more? I know of no evidence of any other drugs and would like to know about that if there is.

No there is no evidence, except their admission about smoking marjuana. But Amanda Knox's phone number was found in the telephone memory of a cocaine dealer in perugia. Raffaele Sollecito was recorded by the Prefect office of Bari as being a user of heavvy drugs. There is no direct evidence nor admission they took anything that night except several marjuana joints, anyway.

PS: anyway we actually don't know what substance you actually find in joints you buy in Piazza Grimana in Perugia. Would you be sure you know what you are smoking?

 

[Machiavelli]

Thank you for your reply. I don't understand however why a Satanic event or whatever is exclusive or incompatible with a drug fueled sex game though. Either one of those events would seem to be loose enough in practice to include a little bit of one or the other.

On that note, what is the evidence re drug fueled party with sexual context? I thought all drug tests were negative on AK and RS, inter alia.

Well I mean if something (like a murder) is a ritual (a "ritual muder" scenario), it is supposed to be something "serious" or "meaningful", organized and/or agreed, somehow symbolically codified and for some other purpose or a facade of it (not just for fun or for the pleasure of it). And the murder must be part of the plan.

If it's unplanned or not agreed, not organized, and it's just for fun, and if the murder was not planned to be part of it, it seems to me a little incompatible with a ritual murder (or with any cult-like content).

Moreover: I recall Sollecito defined Amanda's personality saying "she lives only for pleasure" and is "totally unattached to reality"; if this is correct she could have no real interest in Satanism nor other cults nor other cultural phenomena, neither in other purposes except pleasure she takes in doing something for the sake of it. Knox was in Perugia only for partying, and thus, if you assume she is involved, you would assume the event was a party and not a ritual.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill most people here have called Barbie a liar about consulting ten forensics scientists about the "mixed blood". She reported that all the reporters laughed about Marriott emails. I really don't think that the whole issue of satanic ritualistic killing is significant.

There is no proof that there was any sex game drug fueled or not.

I would appreciate it if you would provide the proof of the satanic remark or drop it.

It may, then, be time to block me.

For some reason, unknown to me, Mignini (five years after the fact) comes straight out of the blue to defend himself on this point. I am fairly positive that he did not do this because he's a reader at JREF.

Every journalist, save for Andrea Vogt, reported in 2008 that Mignini, in fact, said this. The Independent journalist Peter Popham above would laugh at the claim he did not. I don't know the man, but he strikes me as someone who would also share the "WTF!?" that Mignini would come out of the woodwork to defend himself on this in 2013 - esp. if he did not say it, and esp. if there was not something huge (to Mignini at least) riding on this.

It's a line in the sand for Machiavelli as well. For the twelfth time, it is curious to me that Machiavelli simply refuses to even address that Barbie Nadeau herself, a partner in profit with Vogt over this, herself makes this claim too - further adding the intriguing bit about Comodi.

I mean, if true, Comodi could have been signalling early on to Mignini that this was a disasterous prosecutorial-plan to take into court - soon the slut-shaming of Knox was going to wear off, and the courts were going to start looking at the case on its merits....

.... not the slutty fantasies of Giuliano Mignini. So add Comodi to the list of this being a line in the sand, although she said she's standing on the other side of the line - IF you believe Nadeau.

Tell you what, Grinder - if Machiavelli calls Barbie Nadeau a liar, I'll drop it. What I won't drop, as you well know as does he, is that he'd called Nadeau a liar over this issue.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well I mean if something (like a murder) is a ritual (a "ritual muder" scenario), it is supposed to be something "serious" or "meaningful", organized and/or agreed, somehow symbolically codified and for some other purpose or a facade of it (not just for fun or for the pleasure of it). And the murder must be part of the plan.

If it's unplanned or not agreed, not organized, and it's just for fun, and if the murder was not planned to be part of it, it seems to me a little incompatible with a ritual murder (or with any cult-like content).

Moreover: I recall Sollecito defined Amanda's personality saying "she lives only for pleasure" and is "totally unattached to reality"; if this is correct she could have no real interest in Satanism nor other cults nor other cultural phenomena, neither in other purposes except pleasure she takes in doing something for the sake of it. Knox was in Perugia only for partying, and thus, if you assume she is involved, you would assume the event was a party and not a ritual.

Define "riti".

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Just to point out that sex life is never an "issue" itself (unless it takes you into troubles). Personal sexual preferences, tastes, prectices themselves are not issues. As long as one enjoys them.

Raffaele Sollecito was under observation when he was at ONAOSI by the college director because he used to collect extreme violent porn (defined as 'shocking' by a student for its violence). The "issues" of this kind are not because of the sexual likes; they are just question marks about some traits of personality, in particular it is the penchant for knifes and violence - it is the attraction he manifested for the mixing of violence in his sexual fantasies, what attracted attention on Sollecito's personality. Or his expressing understanding for the Monster of Foligno (a sexually motivated serial killer).

What are the sources for these two claims anyway?

 

[acbytesla]

Bill most people here have called Barbie a liar about consulting ten forensics scientists about the "mixed blood". She reported that all the reporters laughed about Marriott emails. I really don't think that the whole issue of satanic ritualistic killing is significant.

There is no proof that there was any sex game drug fueled or not.

I would appreciate it if you would provide the proof of the satanic remark or drop it.

I'm with Bill on this Grinder. There is little reason not to believe that Mignini gave serious consideration that Amanda's and Raffaele's motive was a sacrificial rite surrounding Halloween. Sound satanic to me. How many times did Mignini refer to Amanda as a "she devil"?

But in the end, it's like everything else the prosecution argued, just total bs.

 

[acbytesla]

What are the sources for these two claims anyway?

He has no source Ampulla, it's another unsubstantiated claim.

 

[Machiavelli]

The truth is just about every journalist in the courtroom, except Andrea Vogt who purposely plugged her ears at that point, heard it. They all reported it.

Let's repeat there was no journalist in the courtroom. It was behind closed doors.
But since you think all Italian journalists reported it, then quote them; or link the sources. Tell us who they are.
Pleas note: *Italian* sources. Those are the guys who understand the language, and who know best what's going on.

Barbie Nadeau quoted it in her book, including that Maneula Comodi threatened to quit if Mignini took the Satanic theory to trial.

Are you calling Nadeau a liar? This is the tenth time you've been asked - you steadfastly refuse to discuss Nadeau. Why?

I think Nadeau's book was very imprecise. She made many mistakes, wrote several false things.
But I don't think she did that consciously nor on purpose. I just think she did not have a direct knowledge of these events and she resorted on second-hand material. Actually, she might have put this stuff in without checking just to publish the book quickly (or maybe because the publisher thought it would sell; but I can't tell that for sure, so I can't say she purposely wrote false information).
However, I've just never read Barbie Nadeau's book.

Your method anyway is a bit flawed. It seems you do not really count the sources which do not report what you claim.
Paul Russel's book, for example. All the Italian newspapers and sources.
And you don't resort to any direct quote from any trial document.

 

[moije2]

PS: anyway we actually don't know what substance you actually find in joints you buy in Piazza Grimana in Perugia. Would you be sure you know what you are smoking?

Thanks again for your long replies. The last point I have is regarding your above comment. I do agree with you that one doesn't always know (ever know?) what is in the drugs one buys off the street. However, the bigger point is that I thought they were tested for drugs. Drug screens are ubiquitous in the US for instance - a big money maker in my opinion, but that is another matter. Anyway, I thought that was tested for and was essentially negative. I may be wrong about that.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think Nadeau's book was very imprecise. She made many mistakes, wrote several false things. But I don't think she did that consciously nor on purpose. I just think she did not have a direct knowledge of these events and she resorted on second-hand material. Actually, she might have put this stuff in without checking just to publish the book quickly (or maybe because the publisher thought it would sell; but I can't tell that for sure, so I can't say she purposely wrote false information).
However, I've just never read Barbie Nadeau's book.

Your method anyway is a bit flawed. It seems you do not really count the sources which do not report what you claim.
Paul Russel's book, for example. All the Italian newspapers and sources.
And you don't resort to any direct quote from any trial document.

Wow - that is what I call a very "finessed" response. In other words, she's a liar. Go ahead, Machiavelli, you can say it... you say it about a lot of people.

What is amazing reading your stuff, Machiavelli is the way you describe friends who make mistakes, and the way you positively demonize people on the other side of the fence.

I will now drop any reference to Nadeau with you. You've said quite enough.

And your "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is also intriguing. My bet that Italian reporters were more practised in avoiding defamation charges.....

But thanks for your words about Nadeau. They positively fill me with confidence about what she wrote - who you can criticize, it seems, while admitting you've never read her book.

And you are criticizing MY method?

 

[Machiavelli]

What are the sources for these two claims anyway?

For the "extreme" porn collected by Sollecito, the source is the testimony of the director of the ONAOSI university college, Mr. Francesco Tavernese. (And also another student of ONAOSI, heared by the police, but not summoned in court).

For the Monster of Foligno quotes, the source is Sollecito himself: they were on his MySpace page. Then, he commented the quotes at the investigating jusge hearing before Matteini, saying it was just ironic.