Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Machiavelli]

"This is the DailyMail; doesn't look like an Italian press source."
Yes, that is definately the DailyMail.
Of course the Daily Mail is a British tabloid that is produced in a sheltered workshop for the developmentally disabled.
The budget of the daily mail is not large enough that they can afford to send a reporter to Perugia and have him stay in a hotel. They get stories emailed to them from free-lance "journalists" who are in Perugia. They will get more than one story and they buy the one they like most. Sometimes the writer has to bend the truth a bit to make his story more interesting than that of the guys he is competing with.
Look its not like The New York Times, if a story is true enough they will print it.
I hope it gets thru this time

In fact. This is just the old, bad, cheap jouralism at its grade zero. It doesn't require a plot orchestrated by a foreign prosecution office, aimed at framing innocents etc.

 

[Bill Williams]

While you're at it, can you post the text of Mignini's stuff which "proves" he did not have a Satanic rite theory....

You say you have it, and the mystifying thing is that this is your big chance!!!

Mostly, you just declare stuff "False" with no back up. With the Satanic rite theory, you claim to actually have the data!

On another matter - I sincerely hope you reconsider about dinner. Your offer of the wines in your basement is intriguing.

Machiavelli - you missed this. Reposted as a friendly reminder. It's still amazing that the one document you claim to have, you simply won't post.

Aren't you just itching to embarrass? This is your big chance.

Or is this like the bleach receipts Michael at .net claimed to have?

No wonder the Florence trial is going badly for you.

 

[Kaosium]

The topic I was talking about was Italian press.
Someone claims the Italian press waged a defamatory campaign agaisnt Knox.
This is the DailyMail; doesn't look like an Italian press source.

Those 'mistranslations' must have been the work of the polizia di stato in Perugia, not the Italian press or American and British tabloids. Follain quoted a wildly distorted 'translation' of Amanda's story that changed the end of the story from two brothers fighting to a implying a graphic rape scene by changing the name Edgar to the pronoun 'her.' It was included in a fashion that suggested Amanda's parents were lying about the content of the story. I have difficulty believing that he'd do that if he didn't think he had an official source for that 'version' of the story.

That was the June 15th, 2008 Sunday Times article that was used as the vehicle to file charges against Amanda's parents.

I'd guess the main culprit behind the rash of utter nonsense produced by the press was the Perugian polizia di stato, not the Italian, British and American press--or even the prosecutor's office.

 

[Mary_H]

In fact. This is just the old, bad, cheap jouralism at its grade zero. It doesn't require a plot orchestrated by a foreign prosecution office, aimed at framing innocents etc.

It wasn't a plot. The people who took Amanda into custody captivity really believed she was a dirty girl. They found what they thought was evidence to support their belief and passed it along. Simple gossip.

 

[Mary_H]

This is an inaccurate report by the Independent.
It is not true that the prosecutors produced a psychological profile of Amanda Knox.
What the journalist mistakes for a "psychological profile of Amanda Knox produced by the prosecutors", is in fact the Matteini report.
The journalist is quoting the Matteini ruling, but she erroneously calls it "a psychological profile produced by the prosecution".
Which in fact is not a psychological report (o is not supposed to be such); it is not produced by the prosecution, but by the investigating judge. And above all, it is basically public. It is open to parties and dissemination, and anyone may read it.
There is no rule that the investigating judge should remain silent. These things are public under the current status of the Italian law. The system is transparent. Of course, this has side effects. You can't have transparency and privacy at the same time.

Can you please provide the quote with the page number from the Matteini report that refers to Amanda having "multi-level personality" and being "'self-possessed, shrewd, cunning and, at the same time, naïve'"? Thanks.

 

[Dan O.]

... The photos in the set in fact did belong to the investigation file. ...

How are you going to prove this? Have you seen this exact photo in the case file? Would you recognize the difference?

Here is the comparison I used to make the point 2 years ago.

Most everybody sees the difference here and once they know what they are looking for they can see the difference in the full photos.

 

[RandyN]

I have to correct you, and many others who've referred to Mignini as "short and fat".

He's apparently c. 5'10"/1.79M tall.

That Machiavellii has never castigated anyone about this vile and oft-repeated slander (that Mignini is short) would indicate that, contrary to popular belief, he doesn't know Mignini personally.

Let me go on record that I never said he was a short fat liar. A fat bald liar? Yes. In fact he reminds me of another fat balding liar Perverty Quinell.
Will someone please rescue this man before he has a heart attack worrying about Knox and RS legal problems for
stating the truth about their legal problems in Italy. The poor dear seem overly concerned about how many crimes they continue to commit. Funny he never worries about all ...including himself who continue to make false claims in spite of overwhelming evidence that AK and RS not only had nothing to do with the MK murder but that the police and prosecutor and courts seem blind to logic, evidence and facts ...oh and did I say logical facts? Yep.

 

[RandyN]

The guy in the bunny suit says pure Mignini to me. But in looking at floor plans of the cottage, I can't tell exactly where that picture was taken. Anyone?

Really someone thinks this is not Mignini? How many fat huge headed morons who remarkably resemble Zero Mostel are there in Italy? (Zero wears a convincing toupee otherwise he would be Migninis brother). Mignini a man who seems to dress in spite of Italy's norm ...a style befitting a camping holiday...after two weeks in the cold wet rain.

I resubmit for your evaluation Mignini...or is it Zero? Hint Zero is dead but he would have made a great Mignini in the movie about fraud in the IJS.

 

[Kaosium]

I have to correct you, and many others who've referred to Mignini as "short and fat".

He's apparently c. 5'10"/1.79M tall.

That Machiavellii has never castigated anyone about this vile and oft-repeated slander (that Mignini is short) would indicate that, contrary to popular belief, he doesn't know Mignini personally.

I can't tell who that is, it could be Mignini, it could be Profazio--it could be someone else. It surprises me to learn that Mignini is 5'10"--I would not have guessed that from other photos. I think Dan-O was using that for comedic effect anyway, I do know 'short fat perp' cracked me up which is why I also used it.

Incidentally, apologies to Davefoc and LondonJohn for misremembering the content of this conversation, which was kicked off (in this incarnation) by a post by Diocletus and after skimming through the next dozen or so pages I realized I'd recalled it incorrectly. They did not discover it was Profazio that held the copyright, but both (and Curi0us) responding to a post by Fine clarified what it being owned by Barcroft Media meant and pursued it. The discussion of the person in the photograph, with input from Rose and Draca, suggested to me that was probably Profazio, which was compatible with the original Daily Mail story that sourced the pictures to "Italian police."¹
Someone released that photo, someone Niall Firth referred to as "Italian Police." He certainly may have been sloppy in his attribution and that was actually the prosecutor's office, but I personally have my doubts. However that may be Mignini who took the photo, (and someone else responsible for the distribution) I really can't tell.


¹

In chilling new photographs released by Italian police today, the full scale of the horror that confronted police when they entered the apartment in Perugia becomes clear.

 

[RandyN]

The guy in the bunny suit says pure Mignini to me. But in looking at floor plans of the cottage, I can't tell exactly where that picture was taken. Anyone?

by Void-Master October 16, 2013 2:03 PM EDT
I don't know of a single person who was just so sure of her guilt that has not proven to be an idiot

I just read this on the comments section of an article that was published today,can anyone hear contradict Void-Master,has he not just summed this whole case up in twenty three words

Yep! Whats the word count in this thread? And yet we ramble on...but only because somehow Italy intends to teach the world about honesty and logic and a perfect judicial system. Oh wait...too late Italy. Did we mention that your case has no clothes...or is that your Emperor? Oh BTW...loved the lesson on DNA the Italians have taught the world so far. I for one am still waiting for that lesson Italy. DO you teach that in the same school you teach ship captains of Cruise liners? Was that Giglio or Gigolo?

 

[Bill Williams]

Can you please provide the quote with the page number from the Matteini report that refers to Amanda having "multi-level personality" and being "'self-possessed, shrewd, cunning and, at the same time, naïve'"? Thanks.

I've just had this epiphany....

..... maybe to Machiavelli and Mignini and Matteini, a "multi-level personality" is not a psychopathology.

Maybe they are making a "moral" assessment.... and that's why Machiavelli so violently reacts to the fact that even Judge Massei rejects all this psychobabble....

In doing a google search on what the heck a "multi-level-personality" is, it turns out everyone has one - we all have differing personalities when we're at home, as opposed to work, in social situations or alone with a book.

But then there's this from Dec 6, 2007, from Italy Magazine, where even before the second search of the cottage - when the bra-clasp was found kicked around the floor - business people were complaining that their fair town, Perugia, was being tarnished by the press coverage and the hype over the murder:

http://www.italymagazine.com/italy/umbria/perugia-s-image-tarnished-media-hype-over-murder

In the midst of this article, is this psychobabble gem:

Knox was defined as having a ''multi-level personality'' and being ''self-possessed, shrewd, cunning and, at the same time, naive''.

She was also said to have no inhibitions and subject to any impulse, ''even those which could lead to uncontrolled and violent behavior''.

Investigators said Sollecito was ''attracted to violence'' with a ''complex and in certain respects disturbing personality''.

His alibi was dismissed as ''highly unlikely'' because ''irrefutable tests'' on his computer showed that was not working on his thesis in the hours before and after the murder, as he maintains.

Y'know, it certainly sounds like an early theory was that the two students had some sort of psychopathology; even if it is phrased in more of a pop-psychological way. No wonder by the time Massei was writing up his Motivations report 26 months later (the one to support a guilt verdict) all talk of psychopathology had ceased and Massei had ruled, in effect, the two students had none.

I mean, all this talk simply disappeared. And now Machiavelli wants us to believe that Massei was actually agnostic on the point, at best, or perhaps he DID think Knox had a "mutli-level personality" and that Sollecito was "attracted to violence" but just was too polite to say it - as he was sentencing then to a quarter century in jail.

But is this "multi-level personality" really what they call "multiple personalities" residing in the same person? It would be hard to know. Knox's HIV test was released (leaked) to the public, but there was no such leak of any psychological assessment, professional or otherwise. Well except for maybe Sharon Feinstein's use of an inmate's gossip to make a professional assessment of someone's personality.

I'm confused. If Machiavelli is going to go to the wall saying that Massei never explicitly said that the student were psychologically normal (save for a brief and uncharacteristic "choice for evil"); you think that Masse would provide the data.

Like Massei did to justify saying that the break-in was staged or that the knife was transported from Raffaele's to Knox's for an innocent reason initially.

What? You mean Massei had no data for those two things either?

And they're into their THIRD trial to sort this out?

 

[RandyN]

The small digital compact camera is pointing into the small bathroom. The person holding that camera is standing in the hallway outside Meredith's room, facing the doorway into the small bathroom. The person who took this photo (ie the photo of the person taking the photo) is standing inside Meredith's room.

I think it's Profazio holding that small compact digital camera. I also think it's - shall we say - "not unlikely" that Profazio (or someone acting on his behalf) might have sold the photos from this personal compact digital camera to a particular Perugia photo agency, which then sold the photo rights to a certain UK photo agency, which then licensed them to certain UK newspapers.

The very fact that some goon - Profazio or not - is going round the crime scene snapping handysnaps on his compact camera (regardless of whether they are then sold on for personal monetary gain...) is yet another dreadful indictment of the absolute unprofessionalism and malpractice that appears endemic within the Perugia branch of the State Police. If one then introduces the very real possibility that one or more members of this band of goons was enriching himself privately out of the case, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out just what level of malfeasance is involved.

Nope..pretty sure this is Mignini. Profazio dresses in clothes that would show thru the white suit. Yellow Homer Simpson sweater, brown leather (two cows must die) pants...etc. No way is it Profazio...wrong skin color.

 

[RandyN]

I've heard the same description about those of us that think she's innocent with the additional adjectives retard, moron & liar.

pretty pointless noise from both sides, imo

Well there is that whole lack of competent evidence or a lacking logical case or any freaking evidence at all that implicates AK or RS but sure...both sides are nuts...??? Hummmm.

 

[RandyN]

The roommate's name is Filomena. Fiona is an intelligent British woman who was well known on JREF, and who now posts on pmf.ugh. She formally withdrew from JREF with a general complaint about posters' behavior, but if you read between the lines you knew she left because she was used to winning all arguments and she could not win one on this thread, because she believed in guilt. I think there was even a thread of people on JREF expressing their appreciation for her or something after she left.

Is she still a member? Then I think her posts were idiotic. If she resigned her membership and only if...then I think she is a lame idiot who couldn't debate her way out of a wet paper bag...oh and a cry baby too. Like Yoko.

 

[RandyN]

Time perhaps to remind ourselves once again of the way in which the bra clasp was handled and collected by the "crack" forensic's team, after having been found lying under a blood-soiled rug amidst a pile of dusty debris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaTI0SiuLw

Note particularly the number of times (and the number of different individuals) the hooks of the bra clasp are touched by these goons as they pass the clasp round amongst themselves, before they inexplicably place it back on the dirty floor to photograph it!

I'd argue that this 2:40min of video disqualifies the bra clasp in and of itself.

I think this is the clip that had the jurors rolling in the aisles during the 1st appeal. Amazing in retrospect how this scene plays out and yet the bloody outer jacket that MK was murdered in got far far less attention. I recall only one dude plus the camera man...not the half mask wearing guy... holding up the blue jacket, shaking it out and then turning the sleeves right side in ....!!!Since they were inside out! Which struck me as odd when I first saw it...I was yelling...hey...isn't that altering evidence??? They did not hear me. huh.

 

[RandyN]

Maresca claimed last night on Porta a Porta that Amanda Knox's footprint was in the murder room,do you accept that claim is wrong and that Maresca is a liar

Of course he doesn't. He thinks Mignini and Maresca are both honorable men... maybe in Italy this is the best they have to work with...who knows? Men who lie...but they lie for the good and righteous and against evil and the Masons too. Simple Italian ethics.

 

[Samson]

Well there is that whole lack of competent evidence or a lacking logical case or any freaking evidence at all that implicates AK or RS but sure...both sides are nuts...??? Hummmm.

Asymmetry, and the duck rabbit illusion in overdrive, thank you Randy N.

 

[RandyN]

I see evidence of a sexual violence; and I see evidence of multiple perpetrators; I also see evidence of Amanda Knox's involvement, and of Sollecito's.
I also see evidence that the crime was committed by someone under drug effect and that all three were on drugs that night.
I also see evidence that all three had contacts with drug dealers and had - each one in a different way - some issue regarding their sexual conduct. And also they had some relation with violence or violent fantasies and knifes.



This question makes sense.
In fact, out of my legal knowledge, I did expect the Supreme Court to crush the verdicts completely, but out of my logical sense, I did not expect them to accept the calunnia conviction (while only nullifying the lack of aggravating circumstance).
But, I acknowledge that the decision is sound and logical under a legal point of view. The technical reason in fact is that it does not rest strictly on Hellmann 'competence' (side observation: thecnically, in the legal lexicon, Hellmann's court was 'competent', because 'competent' in legalese means 'it has jurisdiction' on it). In fact, paradoxically, the calunnia conviction could be reviewed if it was proven that Hellmann was corrupt; in that case, the Supreme Court could declare their guilty verdict subject to review (they can't declare it null, but they could appoint another panel that would review the decision and may theoretically overturn it; as it happens in the US for case reviews too). But if Hellmann's decision was just wrongly motivated, well, here we come to the point of why the actual decision of the Supreme Court was sound and logical. Because the Supreme Court decides upon a recours, which consists in reasons and arguments, presented in written and oral form.
It does not rule on Hellmann's verdict. In fact, even Hellmann is itself an appeal court and Massei is the first instance convicting court; the calunnia is discussed by Hellmann court only on the defence's request, and it is discussed by the Supreme Court only on the defence recourse.
Thus, the Supreme Court does not rule directly on whether Hellmann court is good or bad, but on whether a party's reasons for compleint are good or bad.

The calunnia conviction stands not because Hellmann's court was "competent", but because the reasons provided by Ghirga-Dalla Vedova against the calunnia conviction were inconsistent. Devoid of merit, unfounded, inadmissible or wrong, anyway ineffective.
And indeed their reasons were flimsy and doomed, as I explained in my report about the High Court hearing.

Paradoxically, if Ghirga-Dalla Vedova argued on grounds of bias or suspicion of corruption of Hellmann, they might have won. I can't say that for sure but who knows.

Thanks for proving the burden of proof is on the defense in Italy. We all knew this anyway. Your astute observation now confirms it.

 

[RandyN]

Actually, the copyright of the photo was owned by a photo/media agency (was it barcroft media?). It was not a photo, but a set of photos.

Can you attribute the selling of the photos directly to the photographer?
Actually, I think we can't. The photos in the set in fact did belong to the investigation file. Is it possible that someone at the police office put their hands on the file and sold the photo set? It is obviously theoretically possible. But even someone who was not a police officer could have done so. (I'm not kidding; I'm saying even a person who is not a police officer coud have well sold the photos; in fact, Sollecito's father did sell crime videos to Telenorba, for instance).
As for my direct experience, police officers often take pictures on mini-cameras (as non-expert photographers) and they put them in their reports (even in internal reports, or to other departments or other offices).
And lawyers from all parties in a case can, in fact, require to access police archives and access most reports and documantation (including photos).
I know this because I did so, I sent a lawyer to access police reports about car accidents, at the Carabinieri station, reports which included pictures that were not deposited at the court clerk's office.

This said, to your questions, my answers are:

1) I can't recognize the man for positive identification; the picture is useful to me only as "negative comparison" aka to rule out someone. I can rule out Mignini, because the real Mignini is really too tall to be that guy (and actually, the real Mignini is not that fat). When I say Mignini is tall, I mean really tall. Had you ever met him in person, you won't confuse him with that guy. 2) Yes I would idenify him if I could. But I cannot say anything more than something like "probable" identity" (given the context) with Profazio, and "incompatible" with Mignini.
3) No I do't know what happend to his pictures but I guess they ended up attached in some "informativa" (report), as I explained. There, someone (I guess lawyers from one of the numerous party as most likely) picked them and leaked them (maybe to a journalist). Then maybe the journalist sold them to an agency. They ended in Barcroft media agency. They were leased to the Daily Mail (a paper which "re-writes" and apparently misreports, as someone may point out) who chose the bathroom picture.
4) I have no idea about where, what files, specific pictures were deposited. But the concept of "turned over" may be misleading. The fact that a file exists in one of the files and is not deposited at the court file, it does not mean the defence or parties cannot access it on request.
5) No. I don't think the person who took the pictures was the one who sold them. Even less that he/she sold them directly to a British tabloid.
6) There is no police investigation to determine how the photo made its way to a newspaper, as far as I know, and I can tell there will be no investigation ever. This is a non-issue to Italians and Italian law. Nobody care about these things; while the Italian law does not prevent just any person to leake those pictures to the press. It is not illegal for a lawyer to access a police file, and it is not illegal for some private citizen to give the pictures to someone else. What the Daily Mail did, moreover, was off the Italian jurisdiction and anyway was not an object of any formal complain. There is actually nothing illegal to investigate.
7) Mignini has never spoken about the issue of the bloody bathroom picture, as far as I know. I won't even bet he knows the issue exists, as a discussion topic somewhere.

Mignini is 5'10" ...that is not all that tall. In fact I would tower over him by 4 1/2 inches. And he is fat! A fat poorly dress Italian. Who wears a green quilted ugly jacket to a murder crime scene? No wonder he suited up all in white. The only person dressed more poorly was Profazio...he must have rushed from his part time job as a clown doing birthday gigs for extra Lira.

 

[RandyN]

I don't recall that one, but I do agree he must look better in his uniform. That looks like one of those dreadful blazers ABC sports guys from the Seventies wore. Ugh!

No I promise you there are better pics of Profazio and his clown outfit. Where is Hans when you need him?