The Second Amendment and the "Right" to Bear Arms

NWO Sentryman said:
And in the grand scheme of things, the US murder rate is nothing compared to the likes of Russia (yet no-one in the "civilised" countries is condemning Russia for being "barbaric")
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America: "Better That Russia"

Really? That's your battle cry? Might as well give up now.
 
RenaissanceBiker said:
Wow. I can't wait for you to tell us how you came to that conclusion.
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There is no right to life in the Constitution

That universal health care is opposed by many meaning some are left to die where they would have been treated in other countries.

That gun rights are protected so highly they include criminals, nuts, angry people and youths as being able to possess guns under certain circumstances in many states.

That indicates a lack of caring about others lives.
 
arthwollipot said:
This thread is about the US, not about Russia. If it were about Russia, then yes, I would say that the situation is barbaric. But it hasn't come up before now in this thread, which as I said is about America.
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Define "barbaric", because it has always been a byword for "something I don't like"
 
RenaissanceBiker said:
I smell a confirmation bias.
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In this kind of situation, confirmation bias is impossible. Confirmation bias can only explain how an idea persists after it's already gotten started; it can't explain how the impression began in the first place.

3point14 said:
have a look at the question... A question.
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A question based on asserting a false dichotomy.
 
Delvo said:
In this kind of situation, confirmation bias is impossible. Confirmation bias can only explain how an idea persists after it's already gotten started; it can't explain how the impression began in the first place.

A question based on asserting a false dichotomy.
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I asserted nothing.
 
WildCat said:
And what leads you to the conclusion that GDP is more of a factor than societal and cultural issues?
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I am not asserting that it is more of a factor than societal and cultural issues.

However:

Wealth obviously has an influence because with the exception of the few outliers, there looks to be an exponential decrease in the maximum homicide rate with increasing GDP.

I just plotted the data to see if it said anything interesting, and I think it does.

Graph hidden behind spoiler

1449450fbf92621bec.jpg
 
jimbob said:
I am not asserting that it is more of a factor than societal and cultural issues.

However:

Wealth obviously has an influence because with the exception of the few outliers, there looks to be an exponential decrease in the maximum homicide rate with increasing GDP.
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Yes, we've all seen your graph.

What do you think it shows wrt the USA?
 
I've got other comments I'm going to go back and make, but I just have to post this first...

Nessie said:
With their attitudes towards guns (pro) and universal health care (anti), I think that certain Americans just do not care that much about the right to life.
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gumboot said:
I don't think it's that. Americans care very much about their own right to life. They just don't care about their fellow American's right to... well, to anything, really.
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Belz... said:
Well the right-wing ones certainly care about foetuses' right to life.
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gumboot said:
Observation. It gives the impression of being a selfish society.
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Nessie said:
There is no right to life in the Constitution

That universal health care is opposed by many meaning some are left to die where they would have been treated in other countries.

That gun rights are protected so highly they include criminals, nuts, angry people and youths as being able to possess guns under certain circumstances in many states.

That indicates a lack of caring about others lives.
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C'mon, people... really? Did you all have to just go there? Why dig up a sweeping generalization of an insult which applies to all Americans, including me and others in this thread? You seriously just couldn't stick to the points and refrain from insult?
 
jimbob said:
I am not asserting that it is more of a factor than societal and cultural issues.

However:

Wealth obviously has an influence because with the exception of the few outliers, there looks to be an exponential decrease in the maximum homicide rate with increasing GDP.

I just plotted the data to see if it said anything interesting, and I think it does.

Graph hidden behind spoiler

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449450fbf92621bec.jpg[/qimg]
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I think you're on the right track. It's not GDP that's the indicator, but the disparity between lowest and highest income within a particular society that seems to successfully predict crime rates.
 
RenaissanceBiker said:
I smell a confirmation bias.
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Not only that but multiple fallacies, we can start with the fallacy from probability.

C'mon, people... really? Did you all have to just go there? Why dig up a sweeping generalization of an insult which applies to all Americans, including me and others in this thread? You seriously just couldn't stick to the points and refrain from insult?
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Hey dont buck it till you try it.

Tribialism, patriotism, and us vs them rolled up into one, it must feel good to trot out arbitrary factors to prove you are an elite culture.
 
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Xulld said:
Not only that but multiple fallacies, we can start with the fallacy from probability.

Hey dont buck it till you try it.

Tribialism, patriotism, and us vs them rolled up into one, it must feel good to trot out arbitrary factors to prove you are an elite culture.
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As an American, I certainly do have concerns regarding violence in this country and I believe that we, as a society, can learn a great deal from other cultures. I struggle with trying to understand taking one facet of a society and proclaiming superiority over all others with it. I also fail to understand the reasoning behind posting such opinions; it certainly does nothing in addressing and/or solving issues.
 
WildCat said:
Yes, we've all seen your graph.

What do you think it shows wrt the USA?
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It bucks the trend. Something is different about the US.

Part of it is certainly culture, but it would have to be something specific, as the UK, Canada, Australia and France are pretty closely clustered. France has a long republican history, unlike the other countries, which is why I added it in.

The UK and Japan probably have the strictest gun control measures, so that is not the sole cause of the differences - however the attitude to guns in the US (based on these threads) seems significantly different to those in other countries.

1449452586dd6529fa.png
 
The Norseman said:
C'mon, people... really? Did you all have to just go there? Why dig up a sweeping generalization of an insult which applies to all Americans, including me and others in this thread? You seriously just couldn't stick to the points and refrain from insult?
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My apologies and I'll retract my snark statement. I was trying to be clever but obviously didn't find something smart to retort to Gumboot, with whom's post I was disagreeing with for that very reason.
 
The Norseman said:
C'mon, people... really? Did you all have to just go there? Why dig up a sweeping generalization of an insult which applies to all Americans, including me and others in this thread? You seriously just couldn't stick to the points and refrain from insult?
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Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a useful way of participating in discussions like this? I've participated in hundreds, and attempting to be constructive is a waste of time.
 
jimbob said:
Part of it is certainly culture, but it would have to be something specific, as the UK, Canada, Australia and France are pretty closely clustered. France has a long republican history, unlike the other countries, which is why I added it in.

The UK and Japan probably have the strictest gun control measures, so that is not the sole cause of the differences - however the attitude to guns in the US (based on these threads) seems significantly different to those in other countries.
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Except the areas of the USA where you find the "attitude towards guns" of which you speak do not have high gun crime rates. When you look at where all the killing is concentrated you'll find in those areas people are very much against guns and per capita gun ownership is quite low. Support for gun bans is sky high in Chicago's south and west sides, and it's those areas which have ridiculously high murder rates. What those areas have that drives the murder rate into the stratosphere is a subculture that worships gang membership and violence and murder, funded by the War on Drugs.

It's not attitude towards guns that drives the US murder rate, it's a culture of gangs and violence in very specific areas.
 
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