The Second Amendment and the "Right" to Bear Arms

[WildCat]

If no-one in Detroit could get hold of a gun, because there just weren't that many guns to go around, I'd feel pretty safe there too.

I really doubt it. Street gangs and other career criminals can do just fine with knives, baseball bats, and sheer numbers. They'd probably prefer it, their chosen lifestyle would be much less risky that way.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

It makes for better Broadway dance numbers commemorating them later, too. Bet those gang bangers with their sideways nines never thought of that.

 

[Belz...]

Like what? The raging successes of the War on Drugs, or ending gambling and prostitution?

See what I mean by dishonest ? What does this have to do, in any way, with my post about goods and services ?

 

[WildCat]

See what I mean by dishonest ? What does this have to do, in any way, with my post about goods and services ?

They're examples of goods and services which are not only severely restricted, but outright banned. And still they flourish.

How on earth is that "dishonest"?

 

[Belz...]

They're examples of goods and services which are not only severely restricted, but outright banned.

So ?

 

[WildCat]

So ?

So it's a direct response to your point.

 

[Sabretooth]

How is that different from every other goods or services that we restrict ?

Like what? The raging successes of the War on Drugs, or ending gambling and prostitution?

See what I mean by dishonest ? What does this have to do, in any way, with my post about goods and services ?

What goods and services are you referring to? Wildcat has a very valid point and not dishonest at all.

If criminals wants guns/drugs/hookers/gambling/liquor, they are going to find a way to get it...even in "gun-free" places like UK, Aussieland, Chicago, and everywhere in between.

 

[zooterkin]

If criminals wants guns/drugs/hookers/gambling/liquor, they are going to find a way to get it...even in "gun-free" places like UK, Aussieland, Chicago, and everywhere in between.

And yet, at least in the UK and Australia, criminals rarely do bother to acquire guns. Why is that?

 

[WildCat]

And yet, at least in the UK and Australia, criminals rarely do bother to acquire guns. Why is that?

Unless they really want them, like the IRA. Then they can even get heavy machine guns.

The difference is cultural, societal. Specifically a subculture that glorifies violence and killing.

 

[Belz...]

So it's a direct response to your point.

No it's not. My original point was "I'm not sure we can argue against laws on the basis that criminals don't respect them", to which you claimed that "No, we're arguing that somehow taking guns away from law abiding people will keep gangbangers and other criminals from shooting each other." But that's not what was being said. It was simply said that it would reduce the available guns for criminals, which you rephrased in a (dishonest) way to make it sound like something else. I pointed out that it's like other products and services we restrict, and then you went off about the war on drugs and prostitution.

 

[WildCat]

No it's not. My original point was "I'm not sure we can argue against laws on the basis that criminals don't respect them", to which you claimed that "No, we're arguing that somehow taking guns away from law abiding people will keep gangbangers and other criminals from shooting each other." But that's not what was being said. It was simply said that it would reduce the available guns for criminals, which you rephrased in a (dishonest) way to make it sound like something else. I pointed out that it's like other products and services we restrict, and then you went off about the war on drugs and prostitution.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere You're making no claim whatsoever that your proposed solution will reduce homicides or even gun homicides, yet you want the USA to pursue it anyway?

Not that you provided any evidence at all for your assertion either.

 

[Giz]

Again, there is nothing here that I can disagree with. I think it's one of the major blocks to proper public safety in America. If gun owners could get over the idea that it's all about them, individually and personally, then perhaps they could see the huge problem that gun ownership in general contributes to in America.

A different way of expressing it is that many governments are more willing to restrict individuals rights in order to enhance societal stability. America tends to go the other way.

Which way is best depends on you fondness for nanny statism.

 

[Belz...]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere You're making no claim whatsoever that your proposed solution will reduce homicides or even gun homicides, yet you want the USA to pursue it anyway?

Wait, what proposed solution ? I think you're not only confusing issues and posts, but posters.

 

[Belz...]

If criminals wants guns/drugs/hookers/gambling/liquor, they are going to find a way to get it...even in "gun-free" places like UK, Aussieland, Chicago, and everywhere in between.

Ok so I ask again: why do we even have laws, if criminals will break them anyway ? Isn't it to punish said criminals, and provide guidelines for non-criminals to follow so as to reduce risk of harm ?

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

Of course that is an obvious conclusion. I want a world where everybody else isn't armed.

Still talking in hypotheticals, of course.

Just out of curiosity, are you willing to take away knives and other weapons too? I have a concealed carry permit and seldom actually carry a pistol concealed. I carry a Gerber paraframe knife every day.

 

[WildCat]

Wait, what proposed solution ? I think you're not only confusing issues and posts, but posters.

So you didn't propose to reduce the number of guns available to criminals by removing them from law abiding people?

Lots of backpedaling going on here.

 

[Nessie]

Like what? The raging successes of the War on Drugs, or ending gambling and prostitution?

I really doubt it. Street gangs and other career criminals can do just fine with knives, baseball bats, and sheer numbers. They'd probably prefer it, their chosen lifestyle would be much less risky that way.

Are you saying there is as much hope for the USA getting guns off criminals as there is of ending the WOD or stopping prostitution?

 

[Nessie]

Unless they really want them, like the IRA. Then they can even get heavy machine guns.

With the right political will and efforts the IRA and other terrorist groups have primarily disarmed and the Troubles which were killing thousands have been reduced to a few deaths a year.

The difference is cultural, societal. Specifically a subculture that glorifies violence and killing.

So even without easy access to guns there is something particularly American that drives more than in other countries to kill?

 

[Nessie]

A different way of expressing it is that many governments are more willing to restrict individuals rights in order to enhance societal stability. America tends to go the other way.

Which way is best depends on you fondness for nanny statism.

That is an explanation for the lack of political will. Death is preferred to the nanny state.

 

[WildCat]

Are you saying there is as much hope for the USA getting guns off criminals as there is of ending the WOD or stopping prostitution?

What can be done is mitigate the problem. Long prison sentences for using a gun in a crime, for example. Or even possessing one illegally. What we see over and over again when killers are finally caught is that this isn't their first time. We keep letting them off easy until they kill someone, then and only then do they get long prison sentences. If they're caught.