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Cat Tale said:
Thanks Empress, the actual post along with Skyrider44's/Janadele's comments is at this 7967. I like for things to be kept in context, that way people can see what was said on both sides. :D
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Having recently read the book, The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politic and Religion by psychologist, Jonathan Haidt and having studied both epistemology and psychology, I cannot be absolutely certain about anything.

Cat Tale, you are like my mother, she is a true believer but is willing to admit where there are obvious shortcomings. I'm glad there are people like you who defend Mormonism in a reasonable and substantive way. I don't need people to agree with me. I would not want that. If everyone believed the way I do there would be no social or moral progress.

You and I (pup and I also and he isn't Mormon) have had our disagreements, but like most of the people I know and love, you are a reasonable Mormon who is willing to listen and discuss the issues substantively.

I think you and pup represent some the best of the discussion here on JREF. Most of your posts are substantive and too the point.

Thanks.
 
Perhaps while we wait for skyrider44 and Janadele to each collect their thoughts on the Book of Abraham fraud, we could pass the time considering the decline in the Mormon Church membership.

Here is one report among many I have stumbled across on the subject. I found this particularly telling:

retention rates of young people (young men especially) raised Mormon have dropped substantially in the last decade: from 92.6% in the 1970s–2000s to 64.4% from 2000–2010.
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The reader comments following the report are interesting, too. The second one attributes the decline in membership to the Internet. Mormon teachings fail miserably in light of the truth.


And while I would prefer this not lead to a Mormon-bashing arc, I did find this comment further down rather amusing:

...It's been said that once you get a Mormon to bear his testimony, you've won the argument as he is now out of evidence or logic to connect the dots and must make his point emotionally.
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I must say, this thread has done more to expose the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for the sham that it is, than any other thread I have visited.

I think it's good that the internet exposes the holes in the Book of Mormon and The Book of Abraham.
 
skyrider44 said:
<SNIP>
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So, about the claims that pre-Colombian Americans were cultivating "barley"...it does not signify to say that 'god' or JS just mistook Hordeum pusillum for "barley", as, even though H. pusillum was, in fact, a food source at one time, it 1) does not resemble real "barley" (H. sativa) much at all, and 2) it had been supplanted as a food crop throughout most of mesoamerica and north america by 3000-2500 B.C.E.

My question is, who got it wrong?

The same deficiencies plague the claims of horses, domestic cattle, and steel-making. What repair do you offer?

I will address the BoA later.
 
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jsfisher said:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/culture/5611/mormon_numbers_not_adding_up/
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I find this part particularly interesting, " Insularity is also strong among Pew-sampled LDS people, with 57% reporting that all or most of their friends are also LDS."

You know, I never really thought about it, but reading this particular sentence makes me wonder if those LDS who are exposed to the outside world and are close friends with people who are different from themselves are more receptive and less offended by differences, because they've been over all the issues before. Those non-LDS friends ask all the questions and then everyone settles into a friendship based on agreeing to disagree about their differences.

Those who are new to the church or who have friends who are primarily LDS are less apt to be as receptive and less apt to let things roll off them because they're not used to being questioned about their beliefs. Not exactly the answer to the question, but something that just dawned on me. :)
 
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I worked really hard on the No on (h)8 campaign here in California and I'm still cheesed off that the LDS in Utah poured a bunch of money into a campaign against a bill that was none of their business anyway, and that local Mormons were busily pulling down my flyers as fast (or even faster) than I could put them up. The whole thing put me off on volunteerism in its entirety.
 
RandFan said:
The Internet: Where religions come to die

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Thanks for linking to that video. I agree that the growth of the Internet has been key in moving people (particularly young ones) away from the brainwashing of religion.

I had to wait until I was in college and had access to the school library before I read Ingersoll and Murray O'Hair and Russell and realized I was no longer a Catholic but an atheist. Kids have it so much easier these days, thank God. :D
 
I'm from the UK and we don't have many Mormons over here, though they've recently started an advertisement push on the side of buses and the like.
Are there any parallels between their methods (not their beliefs) and those of Scientology, as I think I may have noticed a few during this thread?
 
Dissolution said:
I'm from the UK and we don't have many Mormons over here, though they've recently started an advertisement push on the side of buses and the like.
Are there any parallels between their methods (not their beliefs) and those of Scientology, as I think I may have noticed a few during this thread?
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I think so. Many. However the LDS Church is, IMO, less litigious and less demanding of shunning. They don't excommunicate LDS apostates as much as TCoS declares apostates Suppressive Persons. I think the LDS church is a bit less Cultish and less destructive. See the following video byDr. Robert J. Lifton on Destructive Cults

 
As a general statement, if I am the subject of something I find offensive, I will respond or report it myself. I expect the same level of maturity and responsibility from others. I don't pull the "Internet White Knight" routine unless the person being criticized or attacked indicates they want some backup.

Frankly, I consider it an archaic artifact of western sexism to automatically come to a woman's defense just because you perceive her as being attacked. It's even more sexist when has repeatedly demonstrated that she's capable of defending herself or is not even concerned with the criticism being levied her way.

To bring this back to the topic at hand, I'd like to know more about the role of women culturally among LDS Mormons. Jan is clearly capable of defending herself when she wants to. Is this normal among LDS women? Is it encouraged? Italian culture has a hypocritical dichotomy where women are often culturally denigrated despite many homes being ruled by a strong woman. Does this dynamic exist among LDS Mormons, or are strong women generally problematic for the faith? Since LDS women wearing pants to church is newsworthy I'm inclined to suspect strong women are discouraged.

Is Sky's rushing to her defense in any way influenced by Mormon attitudes about women? Is his apparent perception that she needs rescuing entirely based upon American ideas of the "maiden in distress" or does his LDS faith enhance that attitude?

Cat, Was there something about Mormon men that lead you to marry a non-Mormon?
 
RandFan said:
I think so. Many. However the LDS Church is, IMO, less litigious and less demanding of shunning. They don't excommunicate LDS apostates as much as TCoS declares apostates Suppressive Persons. I think the LDS church is a bit less Cultish and less destructive. See the following video byDr. Robert J. Lifton on Destructive Cults

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Let me address how the LDS church parallels destructive cults.


  • A belief in and hope for apocalyptic violence to renew the Earth.
  • Totalism: An all or none belief systems. Many if not most Mormons believe in an ideal whereby the member has complete faith and is lacking in doubt as to truthfulness of the Church.
  • Control of communication. The Mormon Church has a saying, to be in the world but not of the world. Don't watch R rated movies. Don't read literature that is critical of the Church. There is another saying, "what does that have to do with your salvation?".

There are more but I thought I would provide a short list for discussion. I highly recommend the video.
 
RandFan said:
Let me address how the LDS church parallels destructive cults.


  • A belief in and hope for apocalyptic violence to renew the Earth.
  • Totalism: An all or none belief systems. Many if not most Mormons believe in an ideal whereby the member has complete faith and is lacking in doubt as to truthfulness of the Church.
  • Control of communication. The Mormon Church has a saying, to be in the world but not of the world. Don't watch R rated movies. Don't read literature that is critical of the Church. There is another saying, "what does that have to do with your salvation?".

There are more but I thought I would provide a short list for discussion. I highly recommend the video.
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Are you aware of any concerns on the part of the church about former missionaries leaving the church after completing their missions? They all must occasionally come into contact with someone like me who calls them on their irrational beliefs. I can't be the only person who meets Mormon missionaries and is conversant on the archaeology of pre-Colombian America.
 
Craig4 said:
Are you aware of any concerns on the part of the church about former missionaries leaving the church after completing their missions? They all must occasionally come into contact with someone like me who calls them on their irrational beliefs. I can't be the only person who meets Mormon missionaries and is conversant on the archaeology of pre-Colombian America.
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While on my mission I met a professor at UC Irvine. He held a PHD in the field of theology (though he was an atheist). He was extremely kind and listened to our lessons and then by simply asking theological and philosophical questions he exposed us as wet behind the ears door-to-door sales people. At least that is how I felt. I think I was above average in my understanding of general theology but no where near this guy.

He was one of the steps on my road to leaving the Church. Though that journey would take another 15 years.
 
RandFan said:
I think so. Many. However the LDS Church is, IMO, less litigious and less demanding of shunning. They don't excommunicate LDS apostates as much as TCoS declares apostates Suppressive Persons. I think the LDS church is a bit less Cultish and less destructive. See the following video byDr. Robert J. Lifton on Destructive Cults

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Thanks for that link, RF. Interesting stuff.
 
Waaaay back when Jan started on the SGU forums, I told an old friend of mine in the Southwest about the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. She was so amused by the idea of a religion based upon such a trivially debunked "holy text" that she started naming the new servers after things the Book of Mormon claims were in the Americas but were not.

Now they have a lot of servers named after different kinds of horses, plants, metalworking techniques and so on. Over two thirds of their servers are following this new naming convention, which has proven far more popular than the old convention of naming the servers after Tolkien characters. (You'd be amazed at how many ways people can misspell "Galadriel").

Now there's trouble in paradise. Management just hired an actual Mormon for the IT department. The people who know the method behind the new, easier to remember, server names are trying to figure out how to tell the new IT hire.

And before anyone asks, no, they do not have a server named "Jews."
 
halleyscomet said:
As a general statement, if I am the subject of something I find offensive, I will respond or report it myself. I expect the same level of maturity and responsibility from others. I don't pull the "Internet White Knight" routine unless the person being criticized or attacked indicates they want some backup.

Frankly, I consider it an archaic artifact of western sexism to automatically come to a woman's defense just because you perceive her as being attacked. It's even more sexist when has repeatedly demonstrated that she's capable of defending herself or is not even concerned with the criticism being levied her way.

To bring this back to the topic at hand, I'd like to know more about the role of women culturally among LDS Mormons. Jan is clearly capable of defending herself when she wants to. Is this normal among LDS women? Is it encouraged? Italian culture has a hypocritical dichotomy where women are often culturally denigrated despite many homes being ruled by a strong woman. Does this dynamic exist among LDS Mormons, or are strong women generally problematic for the faith? Since LDS women wearing pants to church is newsworthy I'm inclined to suspect strong women are discouraged.

Is Sky's rushing to her defense in any way influenced by Mormon attitudes about women? Is his apparent perception that she needs rescuing entirely based upon American ideas of the "maiden in distress" or does his LDS faith enhance that attitude?

Cat, Was there something about Mormon men that lead you to marry a non-Mormon?
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Are women second class citizens in the LDS church?

Officials from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) on Saturday turned away 150 female church members and their male supporters who were trying to attend an all-male Priesthood Session of LDS General Conference in Salt Lake City, Utah. - See more at: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/...rom-all-male-conference/#sthash.370npYhb.dpuf
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