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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not support evil and immorality.

The church defines the terms, and then adheres to its own definitions. Can you at least conceive of the idea that this does not mean the same thing outside that church?

Can you at least conceive of the idea that, if a term is defined in more than one way, simply repeating it does not change that difference?

Are you really utterly unable to understand that repeating the statements of your faith is not the same thing as arguing for it?
 
Is there some religious forum where people who hold opposing beliefs based upon demonstrable gibberish just joust with endless canonical quotes for all eternity?
Is that hell?

Can we have a definition of what's anti-Mormon and what's agreeable to dispute about the LDS please, Janadele?

I doubt you'll get a useful definition beyond "What Janadele disagrees with." I can't remember if it was in this thread or one of the ones she started before getting booted from the SGU forums, but she dismissed the Brigham Young University site as "Anti-Mormon" when someone linked to an article on it that contradicted her using official LDS doctrine.

Between that and her comments supporting Warren Jeffs, I doubt official LDS doctrine has much meaning for her unless it agrees with her right-wing Cafeteria style Mormonism. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out her affiliation was actually with a splinter group, not unlike the "LDS in Exile" group I know from my college days. They consider themselves part of the LDS church, yet the head of the family is an adjunct Prophet who can overrule LDS doctrine. Like Janadele, what the LDS says is law, unless it contradicts what their own "Prophet" says.
 
As mentioned earlier in this thread:
The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
Intelligence, the light of truth, was not created nor made.
One who organises materials in a completely new way, by organising the existing matter available, is a creator.
The creation was twofold—first Spiritual, secondly temporal.
Our intelligence was born into a Spiritual body through our Heavenly parents. This Spiritual body grew to maturity, as each of us reached a different stage of knowledge and elevated intelligence.
We were then each given the choice to further progress by choosing to come to this earth in order for our Spiritual body to receive a mortal body for a trial period.
Our progression has brought us to this moment and all will continue to progress through the eternities, excepting for those who choose Lucifer and follow him to outer darkness and regress back to their state as the intelligence they were in the beginning.

Why would you believe this when it comes from the Book of Mormon which is demonstrably fraudulent?
 
I doubt you'll get a useful definition beyond "What Janadele disagrees with." I can't remember if it was in this thread or one of the ones she started before getting booted from the SGU forums, but she dismissed the Brigham Young University site as "Anti-Mormon" when someone linked to an article on it that contradicted her using official LDS doctrine.

Between that and her comments supporting Warren Jeffs, I doubt official LDS doctrine has much meaning for her unless it agrees with her right-wing Cafeteria style Mormonism. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out her affiliation was actually with a splinter group, not unlike the "LDS in Exile" group I know from my college days. They consider themselves part of the LDS church, yet the head of the family is an adjunct Prophet who can overrule LDS doctrine. Like Janadele, what the LDS says is law, unless it contradicts what their own "Prophet" says.

Ah, I see. Cheers for the information, HC.
 
As mentioned earlier in this thread:
The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
Intelligence, the light of truth, was not created nor made.
One who organises materials in a completely new way, by organising the existing matter available, is a creator.

I was talking about reality, not your fantasy. Trying to convince me that your fairy-tale is better than other fairy-tales isn't going to work.
 
Ah, but it does. Its prophets have been deceived by Satan regarding hatred and oppression of gays, just as they were in recent eras regarding the "accursedness" of black people and the acceptance of the immoral polygamy culture.

Hating others sure seems to go against what Jesus said... but then he was pretty two-faced when it comes to these things.
 
There is a deeper issue here.

As evidenced by the anachronisms in the BoM, and the outright fraud of the BoA, and as demonstrated by myriad other issues, the LDS hierarchy will unhesitatingly make claims to support their pre-chosen positions, and assert the rightness (even the revealed holiness) of all claims said to be supported so, even if the claims are demonstrably objectively untrue. The greater good obviates the need for strict factuality.

As evidenced by the behavior of some individuals, individual LDS will also unhesitatingly justify their own opinions and behaviours with claims that purport to buttress their own prejudices, and assert the rightness of the position said to be so supported even when the claims are demonstrably objectively untrue. The greater good justifies playing fast and loose with objective truth.

Thus, for instance,the assertion that, at the end of time, it will be demonstrated that we have been wrong about history, or about our own lack of belief in 'gods', or any one of a number of issues...supported by objectively untrue takes on history and philosophy.

Thus, for instance, the assertion that an individual's distaste and disgust may, in the service of "greater good", be properly supported by resort to horrifying anecdote...even when the anecdotes are demonstrably false fabrications and distortions.

Sincerity, and the "greater good" are more important than honesty and objective reality.

It is important to realize that this is not an LDS-specific problem, but may, in fact, be one more impeachment of organized religiosity in general...as the hierarchy, so the members.

IOW there's nothing wrong with lying for Jesus.
 
What's the reasons for our mortal existence, and what if disagree with it ?

Better yet, what if I don't care about the Eternal Law, and want to form my own society away from it ? Do I have this freedom ?

The reasons for our mortal existence is to perpetuate our mortal existence first as celestial studs then as actual gods of our own worlds.
Of course these worlds will also have potential gods who will create worlds with more p/gods so it looks like it's god's all the way down.

Personally I'm waiting til after I'm dead to convert.
 
It seems to me that tolerance of gays among the mainstream LDS won't come until we have a high-profile member of their church who is gay. Maybe one of their leaders. Like a preacher. You know, someone who never dated, never married, spent all his time around other men, and said that lust for women is sinful. Someone like that. Hmm, maybe he sounds familiar?
 
That's probably the easiest part to explain away if you're willing to grant divine intervention. GodDidIt.

Odd of god to have nothing better to do than hand deliver a script written by Abraham.

After writing those words I realized that to a believer everything is proof of God.
 
Ah, but it does. Its prophets have been deceived by Satan regarding hatred and oppression of gays, just as they were in recent eras regarding the "accursedness" of black people and the acceptance of the immoral polygamy culture (which might have been okay had it been just people's free choices of whom to love, but unfortunately also involved coercion, statutory rape, and the deliberate impoverishment of male children to eliminate competition for the teenage girls).

You can look at other occasions where people who believed themselves moral leaders at the time can now be clearly seen, in retrospect, to have been on Satan's side, whipping up hatred and intolerance in God's name taken in vain. The Crusaders, the Inquisitions, the Old World anti-semites, the righteous pro-slavery preachers in the time of the abolitionists, the segregationists in the civil rights era.

The devil's tricky, though, right? As Matthew 4 tells it, he even tried to tempt Jesus into accepting rulership over the entire world. (Interesting how LDS doctrine one-ups that temptation and offers, to the highest elite, rulership over their own entire universe. Very interesting.) There's always scripture that seems to support whatever temptation to hatred and persecution (infidels, heretics, Jews, slaves, blacks... or gays) Satan is pulling out of his bag of tricks this year. It can get very confusing.

So here's a solution that has always worked. Ask yourself, which side is doing harm? Are gays doing harm by loving one another and marrying one another, or is the harm coming from the people trying to prevent that?

And, very importantly, the harm in question can't be vague invisible spiritual harm. That doesn't count. It didn't count for Jesus; he said so in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaritans at the time were a variant sect of Judaism, with slightly different beliefs than those of the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Accordingly, the "mainstream" Jews regarded the Samaritans as worthy of contempt because of all the spiritual harm they were supposedly doing by practicing different beliefs. Jesus's teaching was to disregard all that; the Samaritan in the fable was doing good in the world in the present and that was, and is, what counts. Those who would bloody their neighbor's nose out of concern for his soul are doing wrong. The state of his soul is up to God, and way beyond the reach of your fists or your bigotry.

Satan is very big on this idea of invisible spiritual harm. It's one of his best tricks. It can lead even a prophet into claiming nonsense like "male and female are eternal" when the Bible clearly says that there is no male or female in heaven, and no husbands and wives in the kingdom of Christ. Old Scratch laughs and laughs at the real-world harm (such as, lifelong partners denied one another's company when one of them is ill or dying in a hospital, or simply the spectacle of intolerance and violence of neighbor against neighbor provoked by the supposed prophets of a loving and forgiving God) that his simple trick invariably leads to when used on the wrathful, the pridefully pious, the uncharitable.

That is how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (and, to be fair, many other churches) support evil and immorality, even though they and their members often did not intend to. It's a good thing for you that God is loving and forgiving.

Respectfully,
Myriad

How do you know what Satan thinks?
 
As mentioned earlier in this thread:
The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
Intelligence, the light of truth, was not created nor made.
The creation was twofold—first Spiritual, secondly temporal.
Our intelligence was born into a Spiritual body through our Heavenly parents. This Spiritual body grew to maturity, as each of us reached a different stage of knowledge and elevated intelligence.
We were then each given the choice to further progress by choosing to come to this earth in order for our Spiritual body to receive a mortal body for a trial period.
Our progression has brought us to this moment and all will continue to progress through the eternities, excepting for those who choose Lucifer and follow him to outer darkness and regress back to their state as the intelligence they were in the beginning.
 
How do you know what Satan thinks?


Coyote told me.

Of course, comprehension of metaphor, knowledge of major trends and events in history, and deductive logic could also explain how I know it, but lacking that first ingredient there's not much hope of communication, so I might as well go with Coyote.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Why would you believe this when it comes from the Book of Mormon which is demonstrably fraudulent?

Just for clarity's sake, what Janadele is spewing would be more likely to come from other sources, primarily the Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Mormon is mostly just a very dull Bible fanfic of the early Americas, and doesn't have that much doctrine in it.
 
As mentioned earlier in this thread:
The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
Intelligence, the light of truth, was not created nor made.
One who organises materials in a completely new way, by organising the existing matter available, is a creator.
The creation was twofold—first Spiritual, secondly temporal.
Our intelligence was born into a Spiritual body through our Heavenly parents. This Spiritual body grew to maturity, as each of us reached a different stage of knowledge and elevated intelligence.
We were then each given the choice to further progress by choosing to come to this earth in order for our Spiritual body to receive a mortal body for a trial period.
Our progression has brought us to this moment and all will continue to progress through the eternities, excepting for those who choose Lucifer and follow him to outer darkness and regress back to their state as the intelligence they were in the beginning.

I understand that you believe this. Why should anyone else believe it?

More importantly, why should people who have no reason to believe it be compelled to obey its rules of behavior?
 
Just for clarity's sake, what Janadele is spewing would be more likely to come from other sources, primarily the Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Mormon is mostly just a very dull Bible fanfic of the early Americas, and doesn't have that much doctrine in it.

I got curious to see what scriptures the LDS church quotes to support its views on homosexuality, and discovered it actually has a whole separate website with the oddly lurid-sounding URL: http://mormonsandgays.org/ Really. It's an official church-sponsored site, linked off of lds.org here.

Needless to say, though they remain steadfastly against gay marriage, the tone is politically correct rather than strident, and is therefore full of messages of love, inclusiveness, etc. For example, the header on the homepage:
Few topics are as emotionally charged or require more sensitivity than same-sex attraction. This complex matter touches on the things we care about most: our basic humanity, our relationship to family, our identity and potential as children of God, how we treat each other, and what it means to be disciples of Christ.
Where the Church stands:
The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

I bet no one could have predicted 50 years ago that the church would put up a website like that (and not just because no one knew what a website was 50 years ago :p). Unless society itself changes, I predict gay marriages in the temple within another 50 years.

It's oddly weak on scriptural citations though. I'm guessing the church mainly relies on Leviticus like any other Christian denomination, but would be curious what passages specifically a member would cite about homosexuality. I asked my wife, and she said Leviticus. Janadele?
 
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