Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RoseMontague]

I think the motives were mixed and they played off each other to fuel the attack. Power and the need to humiliate for revenge is one. As far as the sexual aspect, Sollecito has an unusual interest in knives, and not the tree carving kind. The ultra violent manga is as bad as any pornography and no young man would read it unless it was a turn on. Guede was a hanger on opportunist who had mooched off others and probably got involved in something that looked like fun at the start. I don't know how planned it was, it may have just evolved and got out of hand.A knife may have been taken to give Meredith a post Halloween scare.She may have been angry just as Guede said and that may have been the thing that initiated the first act of aggression. Whether it was premeditated or not there was thought to post planning , which may indicate that the murder was committed with the idea at some point that Guede would take all the blame. As far as the clothes on the bed there was no shower so if Amanda washed them at Sollecito's dried them and put them on the bed that is a possibility. In my opinion they worked all night until the phone was turned back on.

Why did Amanda accuse Patrick if the idea was that Rudy would take the blame? What exactly did they clean up all night and what evidence of this all nighter clean up is there? What did they use to clean, the bleach still at Raffaeles's or the bleach she didn't buy the next morning? What evidence is there that Amanda wanted power and the need to humiliate for revenge? How did they convince Guede to take part?

Just to start.

 

[Dan O.]

Yes, I thought it was a steeper angle than that. So what is your distance figure?

I get 42.5 meters to the back door including the 5% for the slope.

 

[RoseMontague]

Sollecito lived 5 minutes away. they ran back at 10:30 changed and were seen later by Curalolo waiting by the rail for the tow truck to leave. Back to break the window and other important details such as moving Meredith and cleaning the bathroom.

Nara is pretty certain it was after 11PM that she heard the scream. You know the scream you have been constantly defending she would have had to have heard. Yet in your theory, Meredith is dead before 10:30. I don't get it.

 

[RoseMontague]

I get 42.5 meters to the back door including the 5% for the slope.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

 

[Dan O.]

What do you mean mixed evidence? None of the three luminol-positive footprints had any DNA.

One of them should have had DNA because it included Rudy's shoe print that contained visible blood.

Why is it that several of the Luminol prints are not accompanied by photographs? I noticed that the photos from that day do not contain their original names and had been renumbered, some even out of order. Are there photos that the prosecution is also hiding? There is no reason to have altered the documentary evidence in this way.

 

[Machiavelli]

Reliable or not, those witnesses didn't actually witness anything related to the crime (they heard unidentified noises like, I suppose, many other perugians that night) so what was the point of even hearing them in court?

No. They described very unique, very identifiable and peculiar noises.
They include a woman's scream (not just a "noise"), which is described whith fearures that make it unique, never heared before and unrepeated, and other identifiable noises.

 

[Machiavelli]

Don't forget that this is the legal system that convicted 6 scientists for manslaughter due to their failure to predict an earthquake. (...)

For example, the above statement is false.
It may be false reporting by foreign press; anyway it shows ignorance about the actual trial.

 

[Machiavelli]

What is the gobbledegook?

Testimony is testimony. It's up to the jury to accept all or part, or reject any part of testimony that it wants to. It can do so for any reason it wants.

Don't feel bad, though. Your supreme court doesn't understand this, either.

There is no jury. There is a "judge" (judges if you prefer). They must reject or accept things on legitimate reasons. Not for the reasons they want. Only for reasons that are legitimate.

I understand that you don't understand this.

 

[acbytesla]

The tall heater flush under Meredith's window is a typical electric heater, the tank in the bathroom heat the water. Many Italians unplug those water tanks ovenight to conserve energy costs.

Seriously? You unplug a tank water heater? I've never ever seen tank water heater not hardwired into a house. Most of them require at least 30 Amps at 220 volts. That's a lot of current. Also the only time I turned off a water heater is when I know I am going to be away for maybe a weeks or more. I can't imagine unplugging it to try and save money over a few hour period. My bet is you aren't going to save much energy that way since it can easily take more energy to heat up the water in the tank than to maintain a heat level in a tank over a shorter period of time. I know tankless hot water heaters are popular in Europe as they are hot water on demand and can really save energy. When my present tank heater reaches the end of its life I think I'll replace it with one of those.

 

[RoseMontague]

Sollecito lived 5 minutes away. they ran back at 10:30 changed and were seen later by Curalolo waiting by the rail for the tow truck to leave. Back to break the window and other important details such as moving Meredith and cleaning the bathroom.

Nara is pretty certain it was after 11PM that she heard the scream. You know the scream you have been constantly defending she would have had to have heard. Yet in your theory, Meredith is dead before 10:30. I don't get it.

And we have yet to fit the homeless park bench bum into this. He is asked about a dozen times what time Amanda and Raffaele left. He consistently says around midnight or shortly before and when pressed goes as far back as 11:30. Yet you have them leaving the court at 10:30 to go back for an all night clean up (and wait for Meredith's scream sometime after 11PM-even though she was dead before 10:30 according to your theory).

These are some of the problems the pro-guilt crowd have with trying to fit these witnesses as well as the cell phone evidence and stomach contents evidence into a comprehensive timeline.

 

[Dan O.]

The tall heater flush under Meredith's window is a typical electric heater, the tank in the bathroom heat the water. Many Italians unplug those water tanks ovenight to conserve energy costs.

You can usually tell what kind of heater is installed by looking outside for the gas exhaust vent.

Dryer vents are typically not elevated.


ETA: A gas water heater fits with the gas range.

 

[Machiavelli]

I have not done this type of thing in awhile but my understanding this tool was a straight line distance calculator. In this case from Nara's window straight out until that point on a plane above that point in the cottage. Try the distance calculator from the top of some high steps to the bottom. Does the result make sense?

Of course it makes sense. When you know relative altitudes then you can calculate the real distance precisely. It's called Geometry.

 

[RoseMontague]

One of them should have had DNA because it included Rudy's shoe print that contained visible blood.

Why is it that several of the Luminol prints are not accompanied by photographs? I noticed that the photos from that day do not contain their original names and had been renumbered, some even out of order. Are there photos that the prosecution is also hiding? There is no reason to have altered the documentary evidence in this way.

I am particularly interested in seeing a photo of the blob in Filomena's room. It is curious that this has never surfaced.

 

[RoseMontague]

Of course it makes sense. When you know relative altitudes then you can calculate the real distance precisely. It's called Geometry.

Yes, that is why I asked. You said use the tool and didn't include the advice about Geometry. Anyway, I am going with Dan's figure because I trust his work and he has included the slope in his figure, even if that figure puts it even closer than your figure. Of course he has pointed out a few more issues that should be taken into consideration.

 

[Machiavelli]

And we are presenting arguements to the contrary.

You cannot disallow subjective arguements about the physical/accoustic properties of the window, as you have advanced several yourself, without basis, so you have no power here to demand a level of evidence you have failed to submit yourself. If your supposition is valid, so is ours.

It'm not disallowing arguments in a discussion, at best I rather put them into respective categories. Some arguments won't have any effect outside a forum discussion, some other instead have a referal in facts. Subjective arguments are not forbidden, I only suggest you consider that - in the actual decision, at a trial - subjective arguments can't be effective to counter factual arguments.
Nara Capezzali's and Antonella Monacchia's testimonies are factual elements. They carry some important information that links them to Meredith's death.
A manifest impossibility about such link would be a factual element.
A subjective doubt carrying the generic idea that there are some physical conditions which are not the best for hearing of sound, it's not a factual element.
The window and balcony are 40 meters away and Meredith was screaming 45 meters distant outside Nara's window (if she was in her room when she screamed), so hearing it is obviously possible. There are some likely obstacles, but also some favourable conditions; nobody is able to determine that such obstacles would make it impossible to hear a scream, unless he finds further factual element, that could be by making a series of physical sound-transmission experiments.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yes, that is why I asked. You said use the tool and didn't include the advice about Geometry. Anyway, I am going with Dan's figure because I trust his work and he has included the slope in his figure, even if that figure puts it even closer than your figure. Of course he has pointed out a few more issues that should be taken into consideration.

Dan O. figure is exactly the same, not even closer. He calculated the distance from the rear window; I calculated the distance from the point where Meredith's body was found (approx 2,5 meters away from the rear window).

 

[acbytesla]

You can usually tell what kind of heater is installed by looking outside for the gas exhaust vent.


Dryer vents are typically not elevated.

NIce Observation Dan. I think it's pretty safe to say that nobody was unplugging the gas hot water heater.

 

[Machiavelli]

There is a difference between credible and reliable. Credible means that they are likely to be honest, reliable however means that their testimony is accurate and can be counted on. While I have no reason to call Nara a liar, meaning she believes her own testimony, there is however significant scientific logic as which to make one seriously doubt how reliable it is.

Such difference could make sense where there is a significant ambiguity inherent to the information itself. For example if Nara's testimony could be likely caused by the hearing of something else - like if the scream and noises could be confused with other, likely, non significant scream and noises.
But that was not the content of the testimonies. nara testifies of having heard a unique event, never heared before. She amphasizes this aspect, but also Antonella Monacchia says the event was unheard and unique. The rarity of the event sands out. Moreover Nara also identifies the gravel path covered with dead leaves in the cottage garden as the sure source of other noises. And the iron stairs as the sure source of others.

 

[RoseMontague]

Dan O. figure is exactly the same, not even closer. He calculated the distance from the rear window; I calculated the distance from the point where Meredith's body was found (approx 2,5 meters away from the rear window).

LOL, If you two agree, then I am not going to dispute it. Anything else you agree on?

 

[acbytesla]

And we have yet to fit the homeless park bench bum into this. He is asked about a dozen times what time Amanda and Raffaele left. He consistently says around midnight or shortly before and when pressed goes as far back as 11:30. Yet you have them leaving the court at 10:30 to go back for an all night clean up (and wait for Meredith's scream sometime after 11PM-even though she was dead before 10:30 according to your theory).

These are some of the problems the pro-guilt crowd have with trying to fit these witnesses as well as the cell phone evidence and stomach contents evidence into a comprehensive timeline.

It matters not Rose. Every guilt timeline ALWAYS contradicts a significant portion of the evidence. 11:30 is impossible because of digestion, the pattern of the cell phones, the clothes in the washer and how Meredith was dressed. A earlier time of say 9:15 to 9:30 fits the digestion, Rudy's statements about when the murder occurred, the cell phone calls, but of course it doesn't fit with Curatolo or Nara and of course it doesn't fit with Amanda and Raffaele being there.