LDS

[RandFan]

Can any current, or past LDS members confirm that the video is true?

What is filmed is accurate. There is at least one error when it comes to the dialog box explaining baptism for the dead. The LDS church holds that all ordinances for the dead are simply the fulfillment of a formality and that the person for whom the work is being done for is simply being offered a gift. That person can reject the gift.

FWIW: There are other such videos including reenactments. There are also reenactments of the Masonic ritual which for me was eerily similar to my experience. Now the Mormon Church openly acknowledges that the Mormon Temple rite is similar.

The ritual used to contain blood oaths and they were, for me, very effective. I was afraid to reveal anything I had heard because I honestly thought that god would strike me dead. Those oaths have been removed. The LDS church has stated that they are purely symbolic and never meant to be actual threats. If so then I don't understand them. (see Penalty (Mormonism)). To be frank the oaths were rather gruesome.

A couple more thoughts. Mormons like to criticize the Catholic church for all of it's riches. That now strikes me as hypocritical. Also, Mormons will criticize other Churches for their heavy reliance on symbolism and rote ritual. Other than the sacrament there is little rote ritual outside of the temple. But inside, oh boy is there lots and lots of ritual and symbolism.

My first temple ceremony was a very mixed bag. I was very confused and at times I wanted to run out. By the end I felt as if I had taken a drug. I felt high and tears were streaming down my cheeks. It was at that moment I believed that god had answered by prayers and fasting. I had wanted something more than the "still small voice". I wanted a powerful religious experience to confirm that giving up 2 years of my life to be a missionary was because I was actually called of god.

I should note that months earlier I had told my bishop I did not want to submit my paperwork for a mission because I had not yet received an answer to my prayers. He promised me that if were faithful and submitted my prayers god would provide a powerful answer.

I got one.

Only later after my mission did I study psychology and sociology at the University of Utah. I learned about they psychological and cognitive basis for such spiritual experiences. These experiences are not at all unique to Mormons and we know what methods are the most conducive to them. From native American to Eastern philosophy and from meditation to medication, etc..

 

[deaman]

Interesting. I knew (somewhat) about some of the rituals, but not how they looked/dressed and such not. I wouldn't have put it past some people to stage a 'fake' LDS ceremony that would be ridiculous to make the church look bad.

No, the elaboratness of it all is to telling. It's real. I only watched about half, but I would say it is authentic.

I wonder what temple that is? Looks like it might be Salt Lake. I've been in the Los Angeles and San Diego and one other, but I can't remember which. It was just opening so it was a smaller one.

They no longer build the big grand temples. Perhaps to save money for other things, and to enable them to build more temples.

 

[deaman]

RandFan -

Can you describe the Blood Oath part?

I never experienced it.

What was Gruesome about it?

 

[Empress]

RandFan -

Can you describe the Blood Oath part?

I never experienced it.

What was Gruesome about it?

Rand's link explains them. There was a gesture across the neck and another to the breast area, and another on the belly. They symbolized having your neck cut, your vital organs removed, and being disemboweled if you revealed the secrets. Apparently that was originally spoken as well, although according to his link that was changed in 1919 to just saying you would suffer death rather than reveal the secrets.

My sister was surprised to find out what those gestures actually meant (disemboweling etc--she just thought they were random motions) when there was an article in the paper about it, and I questioned her and my mother back in the 90s. My mother had never participated in them, since my father died in 89, so she didn't do her endowments until after they were removed.

I can see why young people that are conditioned to believe that the temple is a sacred, holy place might very well be terrifed by that, although I don't recall how old a child is when they can take their endowments. Still, whatever the age, a teenager who has been brainwashed into believing everything the church says and that to question anything or think for yourself is wrong, would be highly susceptible to such manipulation.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan -

Can you describe the Blood Oath part?

I never experienced it.

What was Gruesome about it?

They are detailed in this BBC documentary. I don't remember where exactly it starts but it's a great documentary. A shorter more direct and more detailed video can be found here (Mormon Temple Blood Oaths)

In one of the oaths you draw your thumb across your throat symbolizing your neck being cut. Another you drag your thumb across your stomach. The narrator talked about being disemboweled and gruesome things that could happen to you.

 

[desertgal]

I can see why young people that are conditioned to believe that the temple is a sacred, holy place might very well be terrifed by that, although I don't recall how old a child is when they can take their endowments. Still, whatever the age, a teenager who has been brainwashed into believing everything the church says and that to question anything or think for yourself is wrong, would be highly susceptible to such manipulation.

I'm not sure they do it when they are that young, though I could be wrong. The husband remembers being baptized at eight years old, but he doesn't remember taking his endowments, strictly, or any ritual involving those gestures with a vow of secrecy. He left the church when he was eighteen, before his mission. Don't endowments come after the temple recommend? It's my understanding that comes later, after the youth mission.

 

[deaman]

They are detailed in this BBC documentary. I don't remember where exactly it starts but it's a great documentary. A shorter more direct and more detailed video can be found here (Mormon Temple Blood Oaths)

In one of the oaths you draw your thumb across your throat symbolizing your neck being cut. Another you drag your thumb across your stomach. The narrator talked about being disemboweled and gruesome things that could happen to you.

Oh, sorry. I didn't click on your original link.

You know this is very reminiscent of the Masons ceremony. In fact, almost taken verbatim.

it's rather strange how those parts were taken out as "not really, real". It would lead me to think, "What else is "not really", real"?

 

[Empress]

I'm not sure they do it when they are that young, though I could be wrong. The husband remembers being baptized at eight years old, but he doesn't remember taking his endowments, strictly, or any ritual involving those gestures with a vow of secrecy. He left the church when he was eighteen, before his mission. Don't endowments come after the temple recommend? It's my understanding that comes later, after the youth mission.

You're probably right. I know as teens they often do baptisms for the dead. I remember there being temple trips for that purpose. But I suspect you're right about getting the endowments when they go on their mission. (Or alternately, when they get married, perhaps?) So 19 for a boy, 21 for a girl back in the day. 19 for both now.

Still, if you've been steeped in this your whole life, and taught not to question and that the temple is a sacred place of god, then I imagine blood oaths like that would be very impactful. (To be fair, I don't know that the "don't ask questions" was really a part of Mormon society, or simply my dysfunctional home where we weren't allowed to have our own opinions. But most of the active Mormons I know are pretty much "toe the line and if the prophet or quorum says it, that's the way it is" type, as evidenced in this thread.)

 

[Janadele]

If these Sacred matters are essential to salvation then the elders are condemning some of their followers to hell, if they're not essential to salvation then why do they matter?

As in all things there are varying degrees of understanding which lead to greater. Sacred matters are not the business of doubters, what have they to do with them? Idle curiousity and a closed and hostile mindset is not condusive to knowledge nor a reason to be given pearls. The Lord's ways are not Satan's ways, and the followers of Satan do not receive the rewards of the faithful children of God.

 

[Slowvehicle]

As in all things there are varying degrees of understanding which lead to greater. Sacred matters are not the business of doubters, what have they to do with them? Idle curiousity and a closed and hostile mindset is not condusive to knowledge nor a reason to be given pearls. The Lord's ways are not Satan's ways, and the followers of Satan do not receive the rewards of the faithful children of God.

Does this mean "the Lord" is just really, really bad at hieroglyphics?

 

[Janadele]

... I wouldn't have put it past some people to stage a 'fake' LDS ceremony that would be ridiculous to make the church look bad.

Yes Shalamar, that is exactly what the enemies of the LDS Church are doing.

 

[halleyscomet]

Yes Shalamar, that is exactly what the enemies of the LDS Church are doing.

Are you claiming the video we've been discussing was fake?

 

[RandFan]

As in all things there are varying degrees of understanding which lead to greater. Sacred matters are not the business of doubters, what have they to do with them? Idle curiousity and a closed and hostile mindset is not condusive to knowledge nor a reason to be given pearls. The Lord's ways are not Satan's ways, and the followers of Satan do not receive the rewards of the faithful children of God.

Skeptics are not closed minded. On the contrary, a good skeptic should be skeptical of his or her own world view. A skeptic should be very open minded to anything amenable to evidence.

BTW: The "no doubters" need apply is the rhetoric of the con man. Remember the doubting child in the Emperors New Clothes. Mormonism is hardly alone when it comes to a rejection of informed consent.

Of course that is what is so great about science and philosophy. No prior restraint when it comes to criticism and questioning. There are no sacred cows. Nothing is off limits. An honest organization has no need of secrets. An honest organization respects the right of informed consent.

Only people and organizations with something to hide eschew informed consent.

 

[Shalamar]

Yes Shalamar, that is exactly what the enemies of the LDS Church are doing.

Could you point out which aspects of that video are incorrect?

 

[kellyb]

As in all things there are varying degrees of understanding which lead to greater. Sacred matters are not the business of doubters, what have they to do with them? Idle curiousity and a closed and hostile mindset is not condusive to knowledge nor a reason to be given pearls. The Lord's ways are not Satan's ways, and the followers of Satan do not receive the rewards of the faithful children of God.

How do you define the difference between "idle curiosity" and regular old "curiosity"?

Is there good curiosity and bad curiosity?

 

[deaman]

As in all things there are varying degrees of understanding which lead to greater. Sacred matters are not the business of doubters, what have they to do with them? Idle curiousity and a closed and hostile mindset is not condusive to knowledge nor a reason to be given pearls. The Lord's ways are not Satan's ways, and the followers of Satan do not receive the rewards of the faithful children of God.

Janadele -

In my estimation all life in the universe is worthy or veneration, thus making all life sacred. My children, family and life, are no less sacred to me, than yours to you.

I am sacred.

Truth is the business of doubters of illusion.

Disillusionment is enlightenment!

A closed and hostile mindset is the type of mind set that views others to be of "lesser worth". A closed and hostile mindset does not listen to others.

Did Jesus' teaching say to disregard others as being "less than"? Where did you get that from? I thought your Lord died for all, loved all?

Jesus taught the parable of prideful praying. The pharisee was proud of his goodness, his own self-pride. Pride loves to talk about "I". Pride seldom admits a need. Pride gives a person a sense of self-sufficiency. Pride blinds a person to their own faults and causes them to only see the faults of others. The pharisee was wrapped up in himself and his ministry. As a "proclaimed" child of God you need to remember it is not about your ministry, it's about God and His ministry.

Or, how about The Zoramites who would meet at their synagogue to worship their God. One by one they would get upon a tower called the Rameumptom (Alma 31:21) and say a memorized prayer to God thanking him for making them better than the Nephites?

Does this Human Being who you call the "Child of Satan", have to teach you a lesson?

Such pride does not help your cause. Perhaps I can teach you to be a better missionary, a better Human Being.

Open your eyes, open your ears.

 

[kellyb]

On the contrary, a good skeptic should be skeptical of his or her own world view.

I'd say that's the essence of skepticism.

 

[RandFan]

Yes Shalamar, that is exactly what the enemies of the LDS Church are doing.

There is nothing fake about it. I've performed in many dozens of temple ceremonies and if, IF, it were staged it is accurate. It's not staged. I recognize the veil and the celestial room.

More importantly, all of this is corroborated on the internet and church officials have admitted that the ceremony was cribbed from the Masonic ritual.

There is no need to pretend that it is staged.

 

[tsig]

As in all things there are varying degrees of understanding which lead to greater. Sacred matters are not the business of doubters, what have they to do with them? Idle curiousity and a closed and hostile mindset is not condusive to knowledge nor a reason to be given pearls. The Lord's ways are not Satan's ways, and the followers of Satan do not receive the rewards of the faithful children of God.

Janadele,weren't you once where we are now, on the outside looking in and wanting your questions answered? Where would you be now if those missionaries had refused to answer your questions and all but called you a follower of Satan?

 

[RandFan]

I'd say that's the essence of skepticism.

Yes, you are correct.