LDS

[MIKILLINI]

At some point we have to look out for each other. I am that compassion. I am that tolerance. I am able.

This world has seen enough bloodshed and sadness.


I have learned to agree to disagree, yet still care, still allow for others to believe in things I never believe in will again.


If human beings are to survive as a species, then we better get smart. We better start caring about each other.

It starts with me. I am that.



I am the generator of love and compassion and tolerance. I am the creating Heaven here and now. I generate true honesty that allows me to be wrong.

In fact, one of the best tools I have is the sentence: I don't know. I am allowed not to know things.

But, I am responsible for my own ignorance as well as my own intelligence. I am responsible.



I am the magic. I am the life.

I stand on two feet, not requesting the universe to be anything, other than what it is. I appreciate it and I am grateful.

I reverence for the here and now.

Wholeness. Unity. Kindness, Tolerance, Peace, Patience. I am these things. I generate them.

I am.
<snip> shortened for brevity

Bravo Deaman!

 

[MIKILLINI]

As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.

Sounds just like a scene in the "Wizard of Oz"...."Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain".

 

[Cuddles]

A whole pile of posts have once again been split to here. If you don't want to post on the topic of this thread, don't post in it.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[pakeha]

Did you think yourself above the question? It's a good question and one that deserves an answer. At the very least it ought to inform you just how much of a waste of time it is to try and convince non-believers that the Book of Abraham isn't an obvious fraud.

[qimg]http://imageshack.com/scaled/800x600/543/2ksr.jpg[/qimg]

Thanks for posting up that image, RandFan. Is skyrider44 going to address the fraudulent origins of the BoA?

So the entire field of Egyptology is an elaborate anti-Mormon scam?

Care to share your thoughts on this, skyrider44?

From the New Era:
"Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken. The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings. Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
New Era, January 1968.

Of it doesn't.
Smith didn't translate anything.

Janadele, didn't you see that the hypocephalus has been discussed here?
It provides proof positive Smith was palming off a fraud as a legitimate translation of Egyptian funerary texts.

 

[Akhenaten]

If this were true it would be no surprise considering the ignorant, offensive, abusive attacks on LDS members, teachings, and beliefs in this very thread.

Even though those teachings and beliefs are comically incompetent fakes, perpetrated by transparently dishonest frauds and slavishly perpetuated by said members?

Nah.

Fair game, Janadele. You have no right to an expectation of silk purses in return for posting sow's ears.

 

[Pup]

It's still hard for me to comprehend that all religious people really believe the quirkier aspects of what they claim. So it's easier for me to understand their faith as what writers call "suspension of disbelief." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

Looked at from that angle, the reaction to the Book of Abraham evidence makes sense. It's like pointing out to a really hard-core fan of a movie, "explosions wouldn't look like that in space," and expecting the fan to say, "I never realized that, but you're right. Now I have no interested in the movie." Instead, a more typical reaction would be, "yeah, so? It's still a great movie. I'm going to a convention next month. I wish I were as cool as [main character]."

I think that's what we're seeing, when Mormons respond to factual evidence against the Book or Mormon or Abraham with, "But it contains great spiritual insight." It's a way of saying, "Yeah, so? It's still a great book. I'm going to a fan convention next Sunday. I wish I were as cool as that Jesus dude."

The difference, of course, is that at some level, movie fans (at least the sane ones) realize the alternate universe they love is fictional. Religion supposedly requires believing the alternate universe is literally really real.

But I dunno. I wonder if it's more personal denial of disbelief, as a way to keep the non-falsifiable beliefs alive.

In other words, if someone finds it incredibly important to believe they'll see their deceased loved ones again after death (unfalsifiable, therefore easy to keep the faith), that will then motivate them to go into denial about their doubts on tangential things such as barley in the New World or Egyptologists' translations or why there's no corroborating record of the sun standing still for Joshua or dead people walking around Jerusalem after Jesus's crucifixion.

 

[Olowkow]

It's still hard for me to comprehend that all religious people really believe the quirkier aspects of what they claim. So it's easier for me to understand their faith as what writers call "suspension of disbelief." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

Looked at from that angle, the reaction to the Book of Abraham evidence makes sense. It's like pointing out to a really hard-core fan of a movie, "explosions wouldn't look like that in space," and expecting the fan to say, "I never realized that, but you're right. Now I have no interested in the movie." Instead, a more typical reaction would be, "yeah, so? It's still a great movie. I'm going to a convention next month. I wish I were as cool as [main character]."

I think that's what we're seeing, when Mormons respond to factual evidence against the Book or Mormon or Abraham with, "But it contains great spiritual insight." It's a way of saying, "Yeah, so? It's still a great book. I'm going to a fan convention next Sunday. I wish I were as cool as that Jesus dude."

The difference, of course, is that at some level, movie fans (at least the sane ones) realize the alternate universe they love is fictional. Religion supposedly requires believing the alternate universe is literally really real.

But I dunno. I wonder if it's more personal denial of disbelief, as a way to keep the non-falsifiable beliefs alive.

In other words, if someone finds it incredibly important to believe they'll see their deceased loved ones again after death (unfalsifiable, therefore easy to keep the faith), that will then motivate them to go into denial about their doubts on tangential things such as barley in the New World or Egyptologists' translations or why there's no corroborating record of the sun standing still for Joshua or dead people walking around Jerusalem after Jesus's crucifixion.

Years ago, I discovered Tony Hillerman's novels. I read or listened to almost all of them. There was a lot of Navajo culture mixed in and a very nice picture develops of what their religion involves. I remember specifically being intrigued and fascinated by their beliefs, though very strange, rather than finding them ridiculous or silly as I do for most mainstream religious beliefs.

I used to wonder why I found these rituals and beliefs somehow beautiful. I think it has something to do with the fact that the American Indians' supernatural views are generally all related to nature, and awe and respect for their surroundings. I think I have felt some of that awe on more than one occasion--camping on the rim of Crater Lake, for instance, and it is as close as I get to any religious experience.

 

[RandFan]

I used to wonder why I found these rituals and beliefs somehow beautiful. I think it has something to do with the fact that the American Indians' supernatural views are generally all related to nature, and awe and respect for their surroundings. I think I have felt some of that awe on more than one occasion--camping on the rim of Crater Lake, for instance, and it is as close as I get to any religious experience.

Agreed, but I feel this way about most early pagan religions. There were based on reverence of the Earth. Human kinds first foray into religion was animism and it really is quite remarkable. Have you heard Dan Dennett speak of the early "wild" religious beliefs. It wasn't until people with ulterior motives began to cultivate those early beliefs, domesticate and organize them. Then an interesting thing happened, some started to claim to be spokespeople for god. Those who claimed to speak for god could gain much in the way of material wealth, fame and power.

 

[halleyscomet]

As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.

How does it make you feel that the Elders refuse to reveal the higher secrets to you?

If someone offered you information on those higher secrets that bypassed your specific elders, but were still withing the hierarchy of LDS congregations, would you accept it?

 

[Crossbow]

As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.

Wow!

So you are member of a church where the high leadership is allowed to decide what information is to be distributed and to whom the information is distributed.

Therefore, since you know that important information is being kept from you (and just about everyone else in the world), then why do you continue to have such a strong devotion to such a deceitful organization?

 

[Craig4]

As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.

That's probably a good idea on their part. If your average Mormon learned the truth, there wouldn't be many Mormons left.

 

[tsig]

As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.

If these Sacred matters are essential to salvation then the elders are condemning some of their followers to hell, if they're not essential to salvation then why do they matter?

 

[Craig4]

If this were true it would be no surprise considering the ignorant, offensive, abusive attacks on LDS members, teachings, and beliefs in this very thread.

How can you claim the moral high ground when you know you're perpetuating a lie? You've been provided enough information so that you now know your beliefs are all based on a fraud. You present your defense of what you now know to be a lie as the height of morality and virtue.

It is good and right to attack the beliefs of Mormons. What they believe is incorrect and to save them from wasting their short existence on the patently absurd is a truly moral act.

 

[halleyscomet]

Apparently the LDS is getting better at capitalizing on their brand recognition.

 

[Empress]

As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.

Not doing a very good job in keeping their secrets though, are they? All that stuff, including the temple rituals, is available through a simple google search nowadays.

Why, looky-here! Here's hidden footage from inside the temple:


You'd think Yahweh or his boy, JC would smite the person who posted that and wipe the video off the planet, but alas, I guess he's too busy to keep his holy secrets.

 

[Empress]

Apparently the LDS is getting better at capitalizing on their brand recognition.

 

[halleyscomet]

Oh sweet Jebus.

Remember the "Elders of Zion" Mormon remix I mentioned a few posts back?

I got the electronic version of the first "Path" and it's a mess.

The 1950's version they're starting from was very thick with pseudo KJV wording, comically so. I don't know how many typists they have at this task, or why it's taking the so long, but it looks like there are two schools of thought on how to proceed. Some typists think the text should be updated to modern language. Others think the exact words they started circulating in the 1950's should be used. The result is different pages typed by different people. To use a Biblical analogy, I'm reading in the KJV, then get switched without warning or transition to the RSV, back to the KJV followed by what looks like some sort of mangled Ebonics translation.

 

[Shalamar]

Not doing a very good job in keeping their secrets though, are they? All that stuff, including the temple rituals, is available through a simple google search nowadays.

Why, looky-here! Here's hidden footage from inside the temple:


You'd think Yahweh or his boy, JC would smite the person who posted that and wipe the video off the planet, but alas, I guess he's too busy to keep his holy secrets.

That's an interesting video. Though my feelings are mixed. Enlightening to know some of the secrets and the weirdness that goes on inside the temple, but is it really any weirder than what goes on inside other churches? The difference seems to be that Mormons place a great amount on secrecy, and prohibiting outsiders from knowing what is going on.

Can any current, or past LDS members confirm that the video is true? Do you even want to?

It's also good to k ow where the tithe goes to. Opulent temples.

 

[deaman]

Can any current, or past LDS members confirm that the video is true? Do you even want to?

Yes, it appears to be an actual video of what goes on in the temple.

I have done all those things. Baptism for the dead. Married and sealed in the temple, and sealed for others, etc.

 

[Shalamar]

Yes, it appears to be an actual video of what goes on in the temple.

I have done all those things. Baptism for the dead. Married and sealed in the temple, and sealed for others, etc.

Interesting. I knew (somewhat) about some of the rituals, but not how they looked/dressed and such not. I wouldn't have put it past some people to stage a 'fake' LDS ceremony that would be ridiculous to make the church look bad.