Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I wrote an email to Andrea Vogt with questions why she's spreading misinformation and she replied. This is what she wrote:


I'll be more than happy to take suggestions from fellow members here if anyone has any (regarding my reply to her).

Sure...ask her why she failed to report on the defense experts testimony concerning these points....also found in the court record.

Mention that her one sided approach seems unprofessional and biased towards the opinion of prosecutor Mignini who has obviously taught her everything he knows...but oddly she still doesn't know anything...hum.
 
You are being foolish Briars. Meredith's window is pointing away from the witnesses with the cottage between them. Any sound through that window radiates AWAY from the witnesses and there is nothing that would bounce that sound back. While the sound might travel down the valley it WOULD NOT TRAVEL BACK. I dare you to get someone to go into a room at the very back of their house with only a window in the other direction and try and hear them scream. You would at best hear a muddled indistinguishable sound. You would then stop this moronic argument because it would be crystal clear to you that you are 100% wrong on this point.

Take a trip to Perugia then you would have a better understanding about the sound landscape.The dog barking well below the cottage was amplified and did travel back up near Nara's , you are wrong about it going down the valley in the opposite direction just like the scream. The SC is not dismissing the witness statements so you might as well figure out why.
 
Yes it is Briars. On this I agree. But is also petty to say that Amanda's email saying "she was there" and linking it to the cottage during the murder .

Hardly that statement is relevant to the case. Why would she say concerned, I can't lie I was there. Very different to say I'm not lying I was with R. You can see where the first she seems to be saying, I have to tell the truth I was there.
 
Hmm. SAL, Quantificazione, Egrams, the Lab's Report, Stefanoni testimony, C&V, Potenza Report, Newspaper articles, Technical Lit./Journal articles. And a spreadsheet that I created of all available lab sample information. That might be it.


Thanks. That comes across in the other thread.
 
Take a trip to Perugia then you would have a better understanding about the sound landscape.The dog barking well below the cottage was amplified and did travel back up near Nara's , you are wrong about it going down the valley in the opposite direction just like the scream. The SC is not dismissing the witness statements so you might as well figure out why.

I don't need to go to Perugia Briars. I have viewed that valley very thoroughly on Google Earth and I have done hundreds of stage setups. I have a thorough understanding of sound and acoustics through experience and study. I know how sound radiates through materials including glass and walls as well as how it bounces. OTOH, your argument is based on an anecdotal understanding of sound. I've suggested some very simple experiments that would clarify this issue for you and you have obstinately ignored and refused to even attempt them. Instead, you have said that this particular valley is different from all others and sound operates differently there.
 
Hardly that statement is relevant to the case. Why would she say concerned, I can't lie I was there. Very different to say I'm not lying I was with R. You can see where the first she seems to be saying, I have to tell the truth I was there.

It's not relevant and extremely petty when you consider the context. What? You think she is confessing in her email to dozens of people? Seriously?
 
Actually, you had answered your question yourself.

You wrote:





Basically you wonder *why* does Andrea Vogt not follow the line of most mainstream journalists (petting-the-Knoxes) and why does she report things that sound bad for the defence and good for the prosecution case. It’s a mystery. There may be a kind of conspiracy, a plan, complicate hidden motive. You don’t quite understand why she does that way, given that she does not get financial gain for her work.

You conclude – all by yourself – that she must not be in for the money. So you wonder what else…
You are sure, that she is on no payroll; she is not paid by a big circus; not getting big money from what she does. So what is the reason why she does that?

You are so blinded that you are unable to see the answer, you scan the horizon for the hill while you are on it. Your preliminary consideration may well be just the answer.
You may just invert the causal order.
You said: Vogt is not on a payroll; she is not in for money; she is not paid much for writing stories like those pro-Knox stuff that make networks sell.
So why does she write reports that point out evidence of guilt? - Well actually I’d say, why does she report the truth, instead of CNN-style stories?

Well, think about it, maybe, it’s just because she is not on the payroll; because she is not going after money.
Maybe she writes because she is just a journalist. I mean not one of those rich paid mercenaries from the media show. Maybe she reports and write about these things, not because she is aiming at money or other advanteges or part in the CNN-style infoshow, but instead maybe, just because these things are the truth.

The insanity of this argument is so vast that I cant begin to answer it...that plus I cant stop laughing.

Vogt is a journalist like Mignini is an honest prosecutor like the logic of the Italian Supreme Court is well....logical.

I suppose since you are Italian you are used to this type of reporter since it is illegal in Italy for a reporter to report both sides of a story especially if that side goes against a prosecutor ...like Mignini for example who has filed sub-cases against every Tom, Dick or Harry reporter that tried to tell the truth about the corruption of the judiciary involved in this case.

Hellmann calls the ISC decision illegal and beyond its own scope...trust me Yummi...the whole thinking world will agree when the full details are realized in the world press.

Then Italy will be better know as the western country with the worst record of human rights violations by its own courts according to the decisions and violations charged to it by the European Court of Human Rights...

Who trusts Italy? Who starts a business in Italy? I would guess this distrust only gets worse as Italians try to make a logical argument from the smoking pile of illogical crap that is this case.

BTW what did you think about Carlas article today about the scientific data in this case? I wonder if Vogt will cover that? LOL...

Ill put up a link in a bit....
 
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My laws? You know about my laws and about Italian press as much as I know about Chassidic cooking.
What I find disgusting is exactly presumptuous ignorants spouting about people, societies, human contexts and lifes they have no clue about.

This is coming close to...if not crossing the boundaries of the rules of this site...please try to contain your arguments toward the posts and not to the poster.
You are welcome to complain that the argument that Italians are unsophisticated backward fascists is ignorant but not that the poster who claims this truth as being ignorants (sic),adj,adj....
Can you understand the difference? Yes or No?

OK, see you later.
 
To be clear, Machiavelli, I have NOT said that Ms. Vogt was lying. Please refer back to my post where I said that the trouble with reporting on daily events, is that the news can be fluid. I have done no such thing as you claim, accusing Ms. Vogt of lying.

What I have said is that she was paid for a piece she wrote for a Seattle newspaper with the lead on it, "I was there." This was billed as an admission by Knox that she'd been at the cottage the night of the murder.

Knox said no such thing. The plain meaning of what she told her mother, secretly recorded by PLE, is once again one of those misunderstandings of language, similar to "See you later."

The point is that Ms. Vogt, for whatever rationale, reported wrong. Mistakes like that happen in the fluid nature of news reporting. In no way, shape or form was Ms. Vogt lying when she reported that. Please do not introduce false arguments.

What I am saying is that she has never set the record straight. It is no wonder that you seem to know so much about Ms. Vogt's reporting - you both simply parrot the prosecution's case.

Uncritically.

Can you quote ONE criticism of the prosecution's case that Ms. Vogt has ever made? Remember, her objectivity as a journalist is on the line.

Oh pleaase let me do that....Vogt was either lying or else she should have retracted that misleading line...she did not retract therefore she is a big fat liar...not someone who should be trusted to provide objective reports about anything IMHO. She is on par with someone who reported seeing Elvis alive last night. Or someone who was abducted by aliens...

Please provide proof that Vogt was not lying when she reported this or else remove this unsubstantiated idiotic claim right now...(see how you do that Mach?)
 
You are delusional beyond belief. The press is not afraid: the public is simply not interested. They don't like that. Most network won't report press releases from suspect murderers, simply because the public doesn't appreciate.

Another violation of the rules Yummi/Mach. How hard is this to understand?
 
You are being foolish Briars. Meredith's window is pointing away from the witnesses with the cottage between them. Any sound through that window radiates AWAY from the witnesses and there is nothing that would bounce that sound back. While the sound might travel down the valley it WOULD NOT TRAVEL BACK. I dare you to get someone to go into a room at the very back of their house with only a window in the other direction and try and hear them scream. You would at best hear a muddled indistinguishable sound. You would then stop this moronic argument because it would be crystal clear to you that you are 100% wrong on this point.

Did everybody forget the rules?
Correct = Your contention is foolish Briars.
Not Correct = You are being foolish Briars

Who could imagine me being someone to correct others about rule violations...that's an insane proposition and yet.
 
Take a trip to Perugia then you would have a better understanding about the sound landscape.The dog barking well below the cottage was amplified and did travel back up near Nara's , you are wrong about it going down the valley in the opposite direction just like the scream. The SC is not dismissing the witness statements so you might as well figure out why.


Briars, this is incredibly stupid. You apparently believe that a dog barking in the valley below the cottage is analogous to a sound projected towards the valley from the back of the cottage. Would you hold the same view if the sound source were replaced by a flashlight? Which would appear brighter to you observing from the top of the car park or Nara's flat: a flashlight shining down into the valley from Meredith's window or the same flashlight shining directly back at you from the valley?

Are you old enough to drive? Have you ever had a car headed towards you with it's high beams on? Do you notice how this is much more distracting than driving with your own high beams on? Do you understand why this is?


Machiavelli, what is your position on this? Do you back Brairs assertion that this tree covered valley will amplify the sound comming from Meredith's window as it reflects it back to Nara's flat?

[imgw=640]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=8193[/imgw]
 
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OK for everyone's enjoyment ....especially Yummi/Mach...here is the days article produced by the Independent Expert Doctor... (yep she is an actual real doctor not a fake one like Mignini or Galati) Carla Vecchiotti.

This stellar analysis with cites is proof positive that the case against AK and RS was made by a corrupt police force and prosecuted by a corrupt judiciary who wouldn't know logical or legal if it smacked them in the face...which it will soon enough do ;-)

http://www.frontiersin.org/journal/10.3389/fgene.2013.00177/full
 
Briars, this is incredibly stupid and it reflects on your cognitive ability. You apparently believe that a dog barking in the valley below the cottage is analogous to a sound projected towards the valley from the back of the cottage. Would you hold the same view if the sound source were replaced by a flashlight? Which would appear brighter to you observing from the top of the car park or Nara's flat: a flashlight shining down into the valley from Meredith's window or the same flashlight shining directly back at you from the valley?

Are you old enough to drive? Have you ever had a car headed towards you with it's high beams on? Do you notice how this is much more distracting than driving with your own high beams on? Do you understand why this is?

Excellent Dan. As sound does operate much like light. Briars acts as if walls and obstructions don't matter. They make a huge difference. very little sound would be able to escape from that back bedroom because of the very stiff hard walls and that terra cotta tile roof. Any real sound escaping the cottage would be through that closed window. And given that the window faces in the opposite direction I simply find this idea of being able to hear a loud high pitched noise from any of those apartments above that parking lot to be ridiculous.

Briars simply is refusing to learn how sound works. This is AUDIO 101. Sound IS DIRECTIONAL especially high frequency sounds. A high pitched scream in that bedroom would turn into a much lower frequency sound by the walls and that window.

Not only is the sound traveling away from Nara's apartment there is nothing in that valley that will bounce the sound back. But there is another point that he isn't acknowledging and that is the ability to discern that scream from inside the cottage. Nara described it originally as a possibly the squeal of the tires. That alone proves that she didn't hear Meredith scream as high pitched sound of say 10,000 Hz would most likely turn into a 500 Hz sound by the walls of the house. You might be able to hear some of the sound of the scream from the road, but it would no longer sound like a scream.

Sound pressure or the energy of the sound is absorbed and is transmitted by the walls and windows. You no longer hear the frequency of Meredith's vocal chords but the frequency of the walls and windows as the energy of the scream transmits through them. Not only do the walls and windows reduce the sound level significantly they substantially reduces the frequency of the sound.

There is SIMPLY NO WAY IN HELL, that these testimonies are reliable. NONE.
 
Both witnesses concerned opened their window to listen further around the same time. The running Nara heard on the stairs fits with Guede almost colliding with a witness. The fact that both women were a little unsure of the time in my opinion within an hour is pretty close and more than coincidental. You keep saying walls but the the scream only had to be heard through the glass window and yes the shape of the valley would carry it back to Nara who was walking by hers.Tenants hear fighting in apartments separated by concrete blocks not just glass.I'm going to stick to what I know first hand about how sound travels to the parking lot from below the cottage thanks.

Briars, this irrational belief of yours discredits everything you say.
 
My laws? You know about my laws and about Italian press as much as I know about Chassidic cooking.
What I find disgusting is exactly presumptuous ignorants spouting about people, societies, human contexts and lifes they have no clue about.

Good to see you back Machiavelli. The last time we heard from you before yesterday was when I asked you a question about the ISC making its ruling on interpretation of the evidence, rather than points of law and procedure. Your answer was, "the ISC rules not on procedure, but on legitimacy".

Can you please clarify? How is that the ISC can declare Hellman's ruling not legitimate without any reference to the application of law, but instead by disagreeing with his evaluation of the evidence? From where I'm sitting, and I believe in the rest of the world outside Italy, this is unambiguous Double Jeopardy.
 
I have no idea how anyone who has looked into this case can come to the conclusion Amanda had anything to do with it.
 
I have no idea how anyone who has looked into this case can come to the conclusion Amanda had anything to do with it.

The police and prosecutor who arrested and mistreated 3 innocent people on 6 Nov 2007 have an interest in covering up their own incompetence and blaming their behaviour on the easiest scapegoat, who at the time was Amanda. The journalists and authors who got paid for sensational stories early on in the case have an interest in validating their original hasty take on the case.

Then there are the judges who have taken the side of the prosecution; it's more difficult to see why they have made so many illogical and illegal rulings. We have to conclude that there is no accountability in Italy, and that they have merely followed the easiest path that shores up a status quo that does them very nicely, thank you.

The real mystery is why there should still be so many people with no obvious connection, who continue to cling to the prosecution line, in spite of the endless list of issues with it. One can only assume that the instinct to defer to perceived authority overrides any sense of justice.
 
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