Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Monaccia like Nara heard the scream. Monaccia was so concerned she opened up and leaned out her window. Both women had trouble falling back to sleep. Nara said she wondered if it were a joke or a near accident thinking to herself that it over.

Neither woman knows when they allegedly heard "the scream".

Neither woman was concerned enough to call the police at the time.

Neither woman reported what they had heard to the police in the next few days after hearing that a girl was murdered nearby that night.

Neither woman can identify anything about the killers.

Both women came forward at the behest of a reporter IIRC.

It is likely that a some point Meredith screamed but these two women's testimony doesn't do anything to point to the kids.

I think they just were seeking attention but if they really did hear something it has no value in terms of convicting the kids.

 

[Welshman]

Even if Nara did hear Meredith scream, how does it prove that Amanda and Raffaele were at the cottage taking part in killing Meredith.

 

[codyjuneau]

Monaccia like Nara heard the scream. Monaccia was so concerned she opened up and leaned out her window. Both women had trouble falling back to sleep. Nara said she wondered if it were a joke or a near accident thinking to herself that it over.

.
One heard arguing in Italian and a scream, the other a scream and then footsteps. As I recall Monaccia also said it was common to hear screams at night.
.

 

[Bill Williams]

Even if Nara did hear Meredith scream, how does it prove that Amanda and Raffaele were at the cottage taking part in killing Meredith.

These sorts of questions are never, and will never be addressed by guilters. Did the two women even hear the same scream? Did they hear their respective screams on the same night? It's hard to tell. Nara herself was not initially sure that she even heard it on Nov. 1. What is for sure is that the PLE glommed on to this by listening to the TV and had released the "damning" testimony before they even had interviewed Nara.

For my money, that's an indication they never expected it to go to trial.

Once it DID go to trial, that's when Nara's testimony aligns with a theory of the prosecutor's.

And as you say, WelshMan.... all this speaks to is a potential later time of death, if that even. What's it got to do with Raffaele and Amanda, esp. if there is no forensic evidence of them in the cottage that night?

Evidence is supposed to converge upon a theory, proving the theory. Evidence is not supposed to diverge away from a theory....

 

[Bill Williams]

Grinder -has someone with the pseudo "MensaDude" started posting at a hate site?

Not that I know of. The quote was from another (.org) site and they were telling the tale of the interchange.

Was there any warning from any of the moderators that ad hominem stuff is not the way to make an argument?

 

[Briars]

Neither woman knows when they allegedly heard "the scream".

Neither woman was concerned enough to call the police at the time.

Neither woman reported what they had heard to the police in the next few days after hearing that a girl was murdered nearby that night.

Neither woman can identify anything about the killers.

Both women came forward at the behest of a reporter IIRC.

It is likely that a some point Meredith screamed but these two women's testimony doesn't do anything to point to the kids.

I think they just were seeking attention but if they really did hear something it has no value in terms of convicting the kids.

Two witnesses hear a scream at about the same time. Antonella, a teacher leaned out the window and was concerned enough to go to the apartment downstairs to check with her parents. Nothing suggests she came forward later for attention . More than one witness, the scream happened and Meredith's voice was heard. I would imagine unless there is a gunshot screams and fighting are heard by witnesses and they aren't reported until later during the investigation of a crime. Common because people don't want to bother the police for a false alarm.

 

[Briars]

One went downstairs to check on her parents while one continued to listen and heard the foot steps.

 

[MDDVS]

Two witnesses hear a scream at about the same time. Antonella, a teacher leaned out the window and was concerned enough to go to the apartment downstairs to check with her parents. Nothing suggests she came forward later for attention . More than one witness, the scream happened and Meredith's voice was heard. I would imagine unless there is a gunshot screams and fighting are heard by witnesses and they aren't reported until later during the investigation of a crime. Common because people don't want to bother the police for a false alarm.

How do you know the scream came from Meredith?

 

[Grinder]

Even if Nara did hear Meredith scream, how does it prove that Amanda and Raffaele were at the cottage taking part in killing Meredith.

Welshman, Welshman - it's so clear, but it took your question to give me the incite.

The reason it proves that the kids are guilty is that the defense and PIP folks say that her testimony isn't credible. The only reason that people would protest a witness' credibility is if that witness gives evidence that proves the guilt of the accused; ergo, GUILTY AS CHARGED.

In other words it is osmotic that any evidence challenged by the defense is evidence of guilt. Why else challenge it?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Even if Nara did hear Meredith scream, how does it prove that Amanda and Raffaele were at the cottage taking part in killing Meredith.

It doesn't, and even if it were a scream they heard, how would they know it was Meredith's. How would they even know it was a scream and not, say a screeching tire, a cat, a couple of kids goofing about. Personally, I believe they heard something, but none of the above.

 

[acbytesla]

Wow. "Someone" is the authority here. This information had better get to Florence because the trial starts in 13 days. Can it be any someone, or is a specific someone required?

This of course is the opposite of the reality of the valley. If for example a band set up in the valley with it's speakers pointed up toward Nara's, yes of course it would be well heard. But if that same band pointed it's speakers in the opposite direction with a wall behind the speakers and the band, you might be able to hear the band but it would sound muffled and unintelligible. Now go back to the cottage and that is EXACTLY HOW this would be. Meredith's bedroom has only one real opening and that is the window pointing away from Nara's and down the valley. The sound would be traveling away from Nara's with NO CHANCE to bounce back.

 

[Briars]

Welshman, Welshman - it's so clear, but it took your question to give me the incite.

The reason it proves that the kids are guilty is that the defense and PIP folks say that her testimony isn't credible. The only reason that people would protest a witness' credibility is if that witness gives evidence that proves the guilt of the accused; ergo, GUILTY AS CHARGED.

In other words it is osmotic that any evidence challenged by the defense is evidence of guilt. Why else challenge it?

how to attack credibility of the witnesses , say they are old , crazy, forgetful, dishonest , attention seeking... then insist on calling the twenty something defendants 'kids'

 

[Chris_Halkides]

streaking in Perugia

"And Professor Halkides has lately said that, if the murderers were naked and barefoot at the time of the murder (which is not in fact known, it is only known that they were barefoot at some stage during the clean-up, so this is a 'straw man'), they could not possibly have made those crunching sounds on the driveway as they fled, thus disproving the ear-witness testimony."

I thought that Knox and Sollecito had to be naked to account for the lack of bloody clothes. The issue with respect to footprints is separate. If they were naked, then I don't buy the claim that they were responsible for the sound of footsteps. If they were not naked, then where are the bloody clothes?

More generally, this is the problem with the PG non-narrative. A proper narrative of the crime should explain most or all of the pieces of evidence that supposedly show guilt. In addition, it should account for when and how things happen. If someone says that the footprints were made later, I would still like to know how one accounts for three prints of the same chirality and prints that don't form a trail.

Furthermore, if more evidence were tested, a narrative would have to account for it as well. I have recently been discussing the lack of testing of the putative semen stain, with a PG commenter elsewhere. The typical response is that if it is Rudy's, it does not tell us anything, but don't buy into this either. If Rudy ejaculated, then I would like someone to explain how the timing fits in with this: "Rudy's bloody shoe prints lead from Meredith's room directly down the hall and out the front door."

 

[Bill Williams]

Two witnesses hear a scream at about the same time. Antonella, a teacher leaned out the window and was concerned enough to go to the apartment downstairs to check with her parents. Nothing suggests she came forward later for attention . More than one witness, the scream happened and Meredith's voice was heard. I would imagine unless there is a gunshot screams and fighting are heard by witnesses and they aren't reported until later during the investigation of a crime. Common because people don't want to bother the police for a false alarm.

What is amazing is the number of excuses made in one post to suggest that this was both 1) worthy of concern, and 2) unworthy of concern, eg. it may have been a false alarm.

"Meredith's voice was heard"? Was she speaking English or Italian? What did she say? Could the people in Nara's apartments distinguish between Meredith's voice and Amanda's voice.... or even at that distance a male from a female voice? Was this voice heard on Oct 31, like "the scream" could have been made?

Have you ever answered the question about using the definite article "the" as in "the scream"? I mean, it could have been, "a scream." Using the indefinite article makes it appear less like confirmation bias - meaning, that you already know what "the scream" was all about even before going through the proof that it may have been Meredith's.

So just to check.... this is not circular reasoning, Briars? Please tell me it really is, "a scream" that Nara heard, from which you use other items of evidence before claiming it was "the scream" the victim here was supposed to have made.....

 

[Grinder]

how to attack credibility of the witnesses , say they old , crazy, forgetful, dishonest , attention seeking... then insist on calling the twenty something defendants 'kids'

I believe that they say they heard the screams and the prosecution should be able to fill in the date, time and any other detail needed for prosecution.

Nothing should be considered except what the prosecutor wants to be considered. If an ear witness has failing hearing that should NOT be considered if the testimony can effectively used against the kids.

The fact that a witness is discovered months after the event by a reporter for a tabloid that could have provided something, that too should NOT be considered.

The fact that a witness told a policeman he saw nothing even when shown a picture of the kids but later was on TV giving his statement after being recruited by a reporter should NOT be considered.

If a witness admits he was high every day on heroin for years, gave details that at first look good (disco buses, people in costumes), had a drug dealing charge open and had testified in two other trials, that should NOT be considered.

Briars you are correct. The idea that the independent experts were paid off or did the analysis out spite should make their testimony null and void. Unlike prosecution witnesses the kids should have to prove every momonet of that night. If one of the two is asleep, that is a time they can't give an alibi for the other.

 

[Bill Williams]

Welshman, Welshman - it's so clear, but it took your question to give me the incite.

The reason it proves that the kids are guilty is that the defense and PIP folks say that her testimony isn't credible. The only reason that people would protest a witness' credibility is if that witness gives evidence that proves the guilt of the accused; ergo, GUILTY AS CHARGED.

In other words it is osmotic that any evidence challenged by the defense is evidence of guilt. Why else challenge it?

how to attack credibility of the witnesses , say they old , crazy, forgetful, dishonest , attention seeking... then insist on calling the twenty something defendants 'kids'

I am confused. I do not see how the reply addresses what Grinder raises. And you know me, I never miss an opportunity to argue endlessly and needlessly with Grinder.

But I do not get how the response relates to what Grinder posed?

So if you want me to be nitpicky to show that Grinder and I have not really made up, it's "insight", not "incite".

 

[acbytesla]

Reading Briar's description of the valley as a natural amphitheater drives me crazy. I am not a sound engineer by trade, meaning I'm not a professional. But I am a very learned amateur as I have worked for quite a few bands as a sound engineer. I've built recording studios and done stage set ups for bands and theater groups. Mostly on a volunteer or for small pay. In drama in high school and one of my closest friends has been in rock bands. I've done this for 30 years.

From my understanding Nara's apartment is above the parking lot 3 stories up. (feel free to correct if I misunderstand this. I do agree that Nara is probably used to car sounds given the road below. and yes I bet she can hear people talking loudly on the top of that parking garage. But the parking garage is a very hard surface.

I don't know what Nara heard that evening but it could have been anything from a scream from Meredith to cats fighting to a couple having sex. It's really simple Briars, anyone in that back bedroom screaming at the top of their lungs would have that scream so muffled that NO ONE at that distance through that many barriers (4) over that distance (my guess about 60 yards) would be able to discern what it was. It's a physical impossibility. And it probably would make no difference if Meredith's window was wide open (it was not) because sound is directional and travels in waves. and that window faces down the valley and away from Nara's.

Try a few experiments Briars. Take a recording device and place it behind you Then with your hands create a megaphone and talk. Then place the recording device in front of you and repeat the experiment. Compare the recordings. You will find that recording behind you will be unintelligible. Then try it through walls and windows. You will eventually come to the conclusion that Nara's testimony is worthless.

 

[acbytesla]

Dupe

 

[Briars]

Reading Briar's description of the valley as a natural amphitheater drives me crazy. I am not a sound engineer by trade, meaning I'm not a professional. But I am a very learned amateur as I have worked for quite a few bands as a sound engineer. I've built recording studios and done stage set ups for bands and theater groups. Mostly on a volunteer or for small pay. In drama in high school and one of my closest friends has been in rock bands. I've done this for 30 years.

From my understanding Nara's apartment is above the parking lot 3 stories up. (feel free to correct if I misunderstand this. I do agree that Nara is probably used to car sounds given the road below. and yes I bet she can hear people talking loudly on the top of that parking garage. But the parking garage is a very hard surface.

I don't know what Nara heard that evening but it could have been anything from a scream from Meredith to cats fighting to a couple having sex. It's really simple Briars, anyone in that back bedroom screaming at the top of their lungs would have that scream so muffled that NO ONE at that distance through that many barriers (4) over that distance (my guess about 60 yards) would be able to discern what it was. It's a physical impossibility. And it probably would make no difference if Meredith's window was wide open (it was not) because sound is directional and travels in waves. and that window faces down the valley and away from Nara's.

Try a few experiments Briars. Take a recording device and place it behind you Then with your hands create a megaphone and talk. Then place the recording device in front of you and repeat the experiment. Compare the recordings. You will find that recording behind you will be unintelligible. Then try it through walls and windows. You will eventually come to the conclusion that Nara's testimony is worthless.

I'm not clear what your understanding of sound is but it is clear you haven't understood what I've said . Dogs can be heard barking in the distance, well below the cottage from the upper parking lot. The cottage window faced the bowl shaped valley with Nara on one side.The scream was not sent out to sea. The new tenants can be heard speaking at normal levels on the cottage patio all the way to the upper parking lot near Nara's. I hear sirens through closed windows several streets away sometimes half a mile in distance in any direction.

 

[Briars]

Reading Briar's description of the valley as a natural amphitheater drives me crazy. I am not a sound engineer by trade, meaning I'm not a professional. But I am a very learned amateur as I have worked for quite a few bands as a sound engineer. I've built recording studios and done stage set ups for bands and theater groups. Mostly on a volunteer or for small pay. In drama in high school and one of my closest friends has been in rock bands. I've done this for 30 years.

From my understanding Nara's apartment is above the parking lot 3 stories up. (feel free to correct if I misunderstand this. I do agree that Nara is probably used to car sounds given the road below. and yes I bet she can hear people talking loudly on the top of that parking garage. But the parking garage is a very hard surface.

I don't know what Nara heard that evening but it could have been anything from a scream from Meredith to cats fighting to a couple having sex. It's really simple Briars, anyone in that back bedroom screaming at the top of their lungs would have that scream so muffled that NO ONE at that distance through that many barriers (4) over that distance (my guess about 60 yards) would be able to discern what it was. It's a physical impossibility. And it probably would make no difference if Meredith's window was wide open (it was not) because sound is directional and travels in waves. and that window faces down the valley and away from Nara's.

Try a few experiments Briars. Take a recording device and place it behind you Then with your hands create a megaphone and talk. Then place the recording device in front of you and repeat the experiment. Compare the recordings. You will find that recording behind you will be unintelligible. Then try it through walls and windows. You will eventually come to the conclusion that Nara's testimony is worthless.

I'm not clear what your understanding of sound is but it is clear you haven't understood what I've said . Dogs can be heard barking in the distance, well below the cottage from the upper parking lot. The cottage window faced the bowl shaped valley with Nara on one side.The scream was not sent out to sea. The new tenants can be heard speaking at normal levels on the cottage patio all the way to the upper parking lot near Nara's. I hear sirens through closed windows several streets away sometimes half a mile in distance in any direction.