Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

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Kind of hypocritical considering that when Amanda rose to address the court, it was Maresca that stood up and walked out of the court room.
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Excellent point, cody, especially since he is the one who keeps talking about respect for the court and the proceedings.

 

[acbytesla]

While the piazza itself isn't busy the kiosk is near a busy traffic stop. Four lanes funnel into that intersection next to the square, The other thing to note is although the gate is clearly visible from the rail the drive and cottage were not. In fact a 3 story building and dense trees blocked the cottage from the Piazza and would muffle any sounds that might have been heard.This is why it makes sense that Curatolo was not startled by the scream. Nara's window faced the cottage with nothing in the way. A scream would have echoed in the valley and traveled straight to her closed window.

You don't understand how sound travels. An echo is created by sound bouncing. Meredith's room is a solid stone house with almost foot thick walls. The only window faces away from Nara's window and while sound would have traveled down through that valley, There is no way that sound bounces off the other side of the valley and returns to Nara's window. In fact the sound waves would have traveled away and NEVER returned. There is no way there is an echo. NONE.

My personal guess is that I could scream at the top of my lungs from that back bedroom and you might be able to hear that scream from the cottage parking area or below the house, there is no way that Nara across the street and through her closed window could hear it NO WAY.

 

[acbytesla]

There were not "screams" just one and that is an important distinction. Waking up to one you would listen question what you heard and keep listening. That is why Nara couldn't justify calling police , she didn't hear fighting or screaming she heard one scream running then nothing. Nara said she hadn't heard a scream like that before, which made it stand out. As far as the noise can you hear a dog barking coming from the valley in Piazza Grimana or hear people talking outside on the cottage patio? No absolutely not the trees ,buildings , traffic noise and distance prevent that, but guess what you can hear both these sounds standing in the upper parking lot facing the cottage.It is the nature of the landscape with no obstruction, If these sounds carry up to the parking lot then a loud scream would certainly be heard through a closed window above.

But the problem with this idea is that while a barking dog outside in the parking lot or on the street would be heard, both of which would probably be echoing off the hard surface, A barking dog inside any of the homes almost certainly would not be heard.

I could show you how ridiculous that idea is if I there was an opportunity to demonstrate. Sound BOUNCES OFF HARD SURFACES AND IS ABSORBED OFF SOFT SURFACES. Sound waves are also directional.

While I'm sure a scream from parking area of the cottage could be heard in dozens of apartments above the cottage, once you move inside that cottage, this idea becomes problematic. If the murder took place in Filomena's room for example, Nara could possibly have have heard the scream as the window faces toward the gate and while the sound wouldn't have been traveling directly toward Nara's the waves MAY have expanded enough to hear the scream. The same goes for Amanda's room as both have windows that face the Piazza. This however does not apply to Meredith's bedroom where the murder took place. The only window in this room faces in the opposite direction away from the street and down the valley.

You earlier said that sound "echos in that valley. I guaranty you that is not the case. The sound would never bounce back. This is not a mountain canyon where you can yell and hear an echo. No, the sound would just continue and dissipate moving away from Nara's and never travel back.

 

[acbytesla]

You are comparing outside sound with inside sound?

Did that loud apparent scream, uninhibited by trees, buildings, traffic noise and distance, happen outside?

The murder happened inside of a house, not outside in the adjacent valley or on an outside patio.
Inside.
On a chilly November night.
Meredith arrived home about 9:00pm
The supposed scream Nara heard happend after 11:00pm, right?

Do you really think that Amanda, Raff, and Rudy Guede forced Meredith to play a sex game gone wrong on a chilly night with the windows of the house and/or the front door wide open?

Do you really believe that Nara, with her own doors and windows closed,
could hear a dog barking or people talking from inside another house with its own doors and windows closed from across a street and a parking lot?

Not just inside the house RWVBWL, but in the very back bedroom. I dare anyone to try an experiment with a radio turned up very loud and see how loud it is through 3 WALLS which is what you would hear in the cottage parking lot. Amanda's Bedroom wall shared with Meredith, Amanda's Bedroom wall shared with Filomena and then through the Filomena's front bedroom wall of the house. Now of course this would be very different from house to house depending on what the house was made of. For example, If you're home a wood frame house with sheet rock walls and say cedar lap siding that you would expect in many homes the North West United States. This could be very different depending on how much insulation is in the walls. Now I haven't been inside the house so I'm not sure if those are sheet rock walls, but I doubt it. The outside of the house appears to be stucco. My guess is that the inside is lath and plaster a much harder and much more dense material than sheet rock.

The witnesses that said they hear the scream simply aren't that reliable. They may have heard something, but it is very doubtful it was Meredith's scream. I also have to wonder just how loud Meredith screamed with her throat cut.

 

[acbytesla]

Did your biological father die of an heroin overdose?

Mine did.
Back in Dec. 2004. My Mother also shot up back in the end of the '50's, ealy 60's...
My earliest recollection of my Mom is seeing her, at age 5, in 1967, in a rehabillation halfway house...

I was shooting surfpix today at Bay Street in Santa Monica, where the old Z-Boyz used to practice sk8boardin' after the surf sucked.
Saw Stacy Peralta out in the water, a legendary Z-Boy. A bro mentioned that his kid, a musician, at age 24, had OD'd on H recently...

My biological father,
the guy who impregnated my Mom, was a liar, thief and scammer. Heroin was his she-iit. Was it yours too?
My biological dad died from it...


WHY DON'T you normal folks believe what a junkie,
who also sold drugs+who had an arrest hangin' over his head, he who had already testified in 2 previous criminal trials,
who, IIRC, told the cops that he saw nothing out of the ordinary the night before of a brutal, bloody murder,
believe what he said back then?

Yet 4 months later,
the drug selling+using junkie comes forward at the behest of a newspaper journalist and said with spot on memory that he saw THE MAIN SUSPECT+her new boyfriend hangin' around the railin' near the basketball court for hours during the night Miss Meredith Kercher was murdered.

This being the same area where Rudy Guede writes that after he left Miss Kercher to die a horrible death,
he saw dudes playing basketball. But the junkie bum sees no one playing that night, even though it's around the same time...


Did anyone playing basketball that night also see Miss Knox or Mr. Sollecito?
Or only the bum, high on heroin, who says so 4 months after that horrible murder?


Why do you pro-gulit folks believe what the heroin using bum spews forth many months later,
but not what he told the cops in the days after that horrible murder?

I have to give you big credit with this RWVBWL. My best friend is a Seattle Police Officer of twenty years. I've talked to him a lot about drugs, addiction and crime. Over those twenty years he has taken a 180 degree reversal about the decriminalization of drugs. He use to take a hard line against them, but his opinion has changed dramatically saying today that it doesn't work and making drug use a crime increases the number of other crimes. He says junkies will do anything for a fix, including stealing and lying. He has seek countless junkies sell their mother's jewelry including their wedding rings for a a fix.

The problem with Curatolo is that he is a junkie. Not only is Curatolo memory not credible due to the effects of Heroin, both his short and long term use of drugs combined with the motive to stay out of jail as well as getting other preferential treatment from the press and the local police taints his testimony.

 

[GreyFox]

I mean exactly what I have stated, Amanda herself claims memory loss multiple times, during her trial, in the 'gift' letter to the police and don't forget the nun she saw that revived her memory all of a sudden.

You must be referring to when they gathered around her and bullied her saying lies like, Raf turned on her and led her to believe that they had Patrik for the murder.
When they tried to get the kids confused and change their stories through threats and intimidation.
When she cooperated and gave them reason to haul Patrik in like they were asking her to do or spend 30 years in prison.

That's not memory loss. It's called police cooperation !

 

[Dan O.]

Amanda's Bedroom wall shared with Filomena.

Remember that this too is an exterior wall of the original building.

 

[Briars]

But the problem with this idea is that while a barking dog outside in the parking lot or on the street would be heard, both of which would probably be echoing off the hard surface, A barking dog inside any of the homes almost certainly would not be heard.

I could show you how ridiculous that idea is if I there was an opportunity to demonstrate. Sound BOUNCES OFF HARD SURFACES AND IS ABSORBED OFF SOFT SURFACES. Sound waves are also directional.

While I'm sure a scream from parking area of the cottage could be heard in dozens of apartments above the cottage, once you move inside that cottage, this idea becomes problematic. If the murder took place in Filomena's room for example, Nara could possibly have have heard the scream as the window faces toward the gate and while the sound wouldn't have been traveling directly toward Nara's the waves MAY have expanded enough to hear the scream. The same goes for Amanda's room as both have windows that face the Piazza. This however does not apply to Meredith's bedroom where the murder took place. The only window in this room faces in the opposite direction away from the street and down the valley.

You earlier said that sound "echos in that valley. I guaranty you that is not the case. The sound would never bounce back. This is not a mountain canyon where you can yell and hear an echo. No, the sound would just continue and dissipate moving away from Nara's and never travel back.

Echo is not the best choice of words, someone described the valley as a natural amphitheater which is more fitting description. The dog was not barking in the parking lot under Nara but down in the bowl shaped valley well below the back of the cottage. The sound would travel from the back of the cottage, not echoing but be amplified by the hills on either side and the back.

 

[Briars]

Not just inside the house RWVBWL, but in the very back bedroom. I dare anyone to try an experiment with a radio turned up very loud and see how loud it is through 3 WALLS which is what you would hear in the cottage parking lot. Amanda's Bedroom wall shared with Meredith, Amanda's Bedroom wall shared with Filomena and then through the Filomena's front bedroom wall of the house. Now of course this would be very different from house to house depending on what the house was made of. For example, If you're home a wood frame house with sheet rock walls and say cedar lap siding that you would expect in many homes the North West United States. This could be very different depending on how much insulation is in the walls. Now I haven't been inside the house so I'm not sure if those are sheet rock walls, but I doubt it. The outside of the house appears to be stucco. My guess is that the inside is lath and plaster a much harder and much more dense material than sheet rock.

The witnesses that said they hear the scream simply aren't that reliable. They may have heard something, but it is very doubtful it was Meredith's scream. I also have to wonder just how loud Meredith screamed with her throat cut.

The loud scream probably was the final decision to silence her with the fatal cut. I hear my neighbor behind playing trumpet inside in the winter.

 

[Grinder]

The fact that one can't remember something isn't necessarily memory loss. Both Amanda and Raf admitted from the beginning that they didn't know when exactly they had done this or done that. They were stoned and hanging out on night that had no significance at the time they were living it.

If one can accept that they didn't know what going on they lived that evening and night, one can understand that noting times for activities wasn't a consideration. They had plans to drive an hour to Gubbio, but it wasn't like they had brunch reservations at the Ritz.

If one wishes to view all this from a guilty first perspective then one must wonder why they didn't have their basic alibi story worked out. JP and PL let us know we were not needed that night. Dad called while Raf was washing up the dishes BEFORE making a fish dinner. Raf cooked and Amanda helped make dinner which was eaten around 9:45 or 10. A joint was smoked after dinner and they had sex and fell asleep. At around 5 am Raf woke up and put music on and a little more sex. Sometime around 9:30 Amanda headed up to the cottage for different clothes and a quick shower.

Now if one wants to believe that they were in the plaza for 2 1/2 hours that could be worked into their alibi as they would think some people would remember them being there and the same goes for the early morning shopping. There is no way that Amanda would lie about the shop if she really went there.

At a minimum they would have had a better story if they were guilty. The PGP have them doing all sorts of clever things (like stealing a mop head to replace or better yet to use for clean-up and then somehow disposing of it) and yet forgetting to coordinate their stories. They neglect that there was no evidence of a cleanup with a mop nor was a dirty mop head found. They planned to discover the crime and "control" the investigation. Actually they planned to have Filomena discover it while they watched.

But they forgot to get their alibi straight.

 

[Bill Williams]

Echo is not the best choice of words, someone described the valley as a natural amphitheater which is more fitting description. The dog was not barking in the parking lot under Nara but down in the bowl shaped valley well below the back of the cottage. The sound would travel from the back of the cottage, not echoing but be amplified by the hills on either side and the back.

Wow. "Someone" is the authority here. This information had better get to Florence because the trial starts in 13 days. Can it be any someone, or is a specific someone required?

 

[Bill Williams]

The fact that one can't remember something isn't necessarily memory loss. Both Amanda and Raf admitted from the beginning that they didn't know when exactly they had done this or done that. They were stoned and hanging out on night that had no significance at the time they were living it.

If one can accept that they didn't know what going on they lived that evening and night, one can understand that noting times for activities wasn't a consideration. They had plans to drive an hour to Gubbio, but it wasn't like they had brunch reservations at the Ritz.

What is often missed here, though, is that the constant "going over events one more time," at interrogation is not an exercise in building a timeline.

In fact it really isn't to catch the people up on inconsistencies. It's to pressure them to confess. When an inconsistency is spotted that becomes a tool for the interrogator to say, "Why don't you just confess," it's not about the inconsistency at all.

Memory loss, being stoned, the effects of marijuana and memory is not the issue at interrogation. The cops go into it with a general scenario, of facts they know to be true, and their goal is to get the interrogatee to buckle and assent to their participation in that scenario.

No one, not even the cops really, is interested in the minutiae of events - the constant demand to remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, is as a pressure tactic. The goal is confession.

 

[Bill Williams]

I mean exactly what I have stated, Amanda herself claims memory loss multiple times, during her trial, in the 'gift' letter to the police and don't forget the nun she saw that revived her memory all of a sudden.

You must be referring to when they gathered around her and bullied her saying lies like, Raf turned on her and led her to believe that they had Patrik for the murder.
When they tried to get the kids confused and change their stories through threats and intimidation.
When she cooperated and gave them reason to haul Patrik in like they were asking her to do or spend 30 years in prison.

That's not memory loss. It's called police cooperation !

Knox may have called it memory loss, and you (Sherlock) may have called it memory loss, but what it was, was not memory loss.

Knox had been told at interrogation that the reason she could not remember being at the cottage was that she had a memory loss because of the trauma. Translator/Mediator Donnino offered her own experience of memory loss.

What Knox is talking about at trial is to recount how the the letter (morning of Nov 6) came to be. It's the first in her coming back to her original story - "I was not there." The first thing she had to deal with was recovering that it was the police, and Donnino the translator played a role in this, who convinced her that her memory of being at Raffaele's - not clouded at all -was the true memory.

She had not memory loss in fact. She'd been bullied to mistrust her memory - bullied in a situation where she should have had a lawyer who could have stopped the proceedings once that had happened.

"Knox's memory loss" is simply untrue. Her memory was always intact. She'd always remembered being at Raffaele's and only caved in to the game the PLE played at interrogation.

Why are we even talking about memory loss?

 

[Grinder]

The loud scream probably was the final decision to silence her with the fatal cut. I hear my neighbor behind playing trumpet inside in the winter.

And are you about to kill him?

Why not have court appointed expert test? The reason is that it is a one-way result. It can't be negative for the kids, only indeterminate, but if a scream can't be heard inside the apartment that it's windows closed the whole time then Nara's testimony is completely ruled out.

The cottage isn't the stage of an amphitheater and noise from there wouldn't be amplified.

I have never heard a noise from the houses across the street in 30 years. I doubt that a trumpet would be heard unless a door or window was open near the trumpeter.

But even if Nara heard a loud noise it doesn't mean anything since she doesn't know the time, the source nor did she feel the need to call the police.

Someone here made the case that it could have been a noise made by the tow truck lifting the car and I think that is the most likely source.

Did Nara mention seeing the tow truck or hear those people talking?

 

[Grinder]

What is often missed here, though, is that the constant "going over events one more time," at interrogation is not an exercise in building a timeline.

In fact it really isn't to catch the people up on inconsistencies. It's to pressure them to confess. When an inconsistency is spotted that becomes a tool for the interrogator to say, "Why don't you just confess," it's not about the inconsistency at all.

Bill she admitted to the issue in interviews that occurred before the interrogation. They couldn't give a detailed timeline from the beginning. We get what an interrogation is used to get.

There is no need to defend their inability to recount the evening with more exactness.

Memory loss, being stoned, the effects of marijuana and memory is not the issue at interrogation. The cops go into it with a general scenario, of facts they know to be true, and their goal is to get the interrogatee to buckle and assent to their participation in that scenario.

No one, not even the cops really, is interested in the minutiae of events - the constant demand to remember, remember, remember, remember, remember, is as a pressure tactic. The goal is confession.

Bill you always go to the last interaction with the police before arrest. We all concede that the night of the 5th the results were skewed by the techniques used.

Smoking pot does affect such things as paying attention to time etc. Go back and listen to Shel's "I was stoned and I missed it".

 

[Briars]

And are you about to kill him?

Why not have court appointed expert test? The reason is that it is a one-way result. It can't be negative for the kids, only indeterminate, but if a scream can't be heard inside the apartment that it's windows closed the whole time then Nara's testimony is completely ruled out.

The cottage isn't the stage of an amphitheater and noise from there wouldn't be amplified.

I have never heard a noise from the houses across the street in 30 years. I doubt that a trumpet would be heard unless a door or window was open near the trumpeter.

But even if Nara heard a loud noise it doesn't mean anything since she doesn't know the time, the source nor did she feel the need to call the police.

Someone here made the case that it could have been a noise made by the tow truck lifting the car and I think that is the most likely source.

Did Nara mention seeing the tow truck or hear those people talking?

Living above a parking lot and a fairly busy road probably made her used to hearing car noises even trucks, I doubt she would pay attention to those. The terrain is an natural sound magnifier, bowl shaped with Nara on one edge.Remember too the cottage is near the road , close by with Nara's window above with nothing in the way . She wasn't the only witness to hear the scream around that time. She may have been aware that it was sometime after 10 but before midnight and didn't check the exact time because she saw no reason to.

 

[Dan O.]

Here is the view out the back from the balcony of the cottage

How much sound echoes off those trees?

 

[JREF2010]

Smoking pot does affect such things as paying attention to time etc. Go back and listen to Shel's "I was stoned and I missed it".

I agree..
I wonder how many have 20yr olds in their life, today?
And how many have a child/college age like Raffaele and Amanda in their life?

I have had many running through the house, playing in bands, and video games and hanging out at my house the past 5 yrs....they leave the door open, they have 300 calls every week and cant remember three hours ago most the time.

My point is not remembering where their keys are, or not recalling dinner times, is such a pathetic attempt at blaming someone for murder.

Even when the two say "we were watching a movie, then dinner, maybe then someone came to the door, then sex and emailing probably...I had plans to give someone a ride at midnight...there should be proof on my hardrives.." the Hate Mongers claim they have no alibi.

But if a heroin bum says "I saw them in the dark over by the trees!" the Hate Mongers say this is evidence, a super witness!

What a case...and add in a ISC that has become overloaded with cases, and has no time for details.

 

[GreyFox]

Echo is not the best choice of words, someone described the valley as a natural amphitheater which is more fitting description. The dog was not barking in the parking lot under Nara but down in the bowl shaped valley well below the back of the cottage. The sound would travel from the back of the cottage, not echoing but be amplified by the hills on either side and the back.

Then Curatalo should have heard it before Nara ? He was outside Nara was inside.

He also should have heard Rudy break Filomenia window if he was really there.

These super witness's work against each other if you ask me.

 

[Grinder]

Living above a parking lot and a fairly busy road probably made her used to hearing car noises even trucks, I doubt she would pay attention to those. The terrain is an natural sound magnifier, bowl shaped with Nara on one edge.Remember too the cottage is near the road , close by with Nara's window above with nothing in the way . She wasn't the only witness to hear the scream around that time. She may have been aware that it was sometime after 10 but before midnight and didn't check the exact time because she saw no reason to.

Rudy heard a scream at 9:15. Monacchia months later said that she heard a couple arguing in Italian before the alleged scream. Who do you think was arguing in Italian? How did she come forward?

Except for Rudi none of them knows what time the even allege. According to Curatolo there were disco buses and people walking around with costumes but none of them heard this scream.

There was a car full of people and a tow truck parked right out front and they didn't hear anything.

The cottage is not the stage of a theater. At best the cottage would be the cheap seats.

It certainly is possible that a scream might not be heard by Curatolo but it isn't credible that only these two women heard it and that no one reported it.

Even if they did hear the last noise from Meredith, what does that prove about Amanda and Raf? Nothing. They don't even have the time.

Now the woman that came forward in a timely fashion and said she and her date were almost run into by a black man about 10 - 10:15 now that has some weight. She being honest couldn't swear it was Rudy but the other two women can't verify the time much less who made the noise.

Funny that AM, Q, N and Cura all have names we know but the woman that came forward doesn't.

ETA - the noise from the tow truck hoisting the car would or at least could be a loud screech. I've heard winches make noise and I've heard screeching when a car is lifted. Sometimes the tires are dragged at first and make quite a racket. She is used to all sorts of noise but notes feet on gravel or stairs, which is significant because of following the "scream" but then doesn't call the police. You can't have it be both ways.